The Alternative Vote (AV)

[Ferret]

I've found the whole thing very uninspiring tbh. The yes campaign haven't explained why it would be better, and the no campaign haven't explained why they think it's a bad thing! Still, if AV is so great, why the hell does virtually no country use it?!

I'm no real fan of FPTP - I live in a Tory safe seat constituency so it matters not who I vote for - and I suspect the same would be the case with AV too! Ah well, I shall wait for either side to make a convincing case over the coming weeks...though I get the feeling it'll be a fruitless wait that will force me into voting for the status quo, purely because it's the most simple system of the lot.

 

[WestCoast]

The system itself doesn't. It just gives more people a say than FPTP does. If enough people vote for a third party, then that's what will happen. It happened last year, and has happened before.

No it's not the mechanism that determines this, but it facilitates a change in voting habits and outcomes in favour of third party and therefore, majorities are lost.

Before last years election a single party has failed to win an overall majority only a couple of times though.
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I live in a Tory safe seat constituency so it matters not who I vote for

That is an attitude that some want to change. In these seats, people won't vote for the LibDems, or vote at all! So the seat remains eternally safe and there's a safe job for life if an MP wants it!
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What I think is shocking is that MPs have been elected with just 26% of the their constituency vote, does that make them legitimate? Proportional systems are used all over the world and while AV isn't perfect it is a step towards greater proportionality and legitimacy for our politicians.

 

[Ivo]

What I think is shocking is that MPs have been elected with just 26% of the their constituency vote, does that make them legitimate?

Introduce a minimum. Only in situations such as this would the AV be of any real use in my opinion. Stage a second vote the following day, this time using AV principles. But not for the main part of the election.

 

[WestCoast]

Introduce a minimum. Only in situations such as this would the AV be of any real use in my opinion. Stage a second vote the following day, this time using AV principles. But not for the main part of the election.

Difficult to perform in reality. You'd have to bring everyone back to the polling station and make them order their choices so votes could be re-distributed using the AV mechanisms.

Unless of course you use an AV style ballot paper, but elected using FPTP, and if no minimum % is achieved use the AV mechanism. Then essentially, you've got "AV minus".

Muddy waters...

 

[SS4]

Is it worth pointing out that I grew up deep in Toryland? (Yes, here *is* an "r" there; I did not say Toyland!)

I am intrigued to see if the AV would work, but I do have serious doubts about it. If almost everyone voted for the BNP as their second choice, unless another party had a strong popularity at the top the fascist idiots could well win! Think about it like this:

----- A ------ B ----- C ------- D
- 1 - Lab --- Con --- Lib --- BNP
- 2 - BNP --- BNP --- BNP --- Grn
- 3 - Con --- Lib --- Lab --- Ind

Unlikely I know, but based on the above would the BNP not win - even if D did not turn up?

@ Matt: Sorry to hear about Padiham :?

Nice coding on the table

It is hard to say because there is no definite loser to eliminate in the first round and FPTP would have a huge hung parliament

If for example the party "D" voted got the fewest votes then their Grn vote would be added to the list of votes for the Grn candidate. Should the green candidate then be last the independent would get their vote. It must be stressed that the one vote goes to one party only, it's just the party will change.

Here's my take

------ A -------------- B ---------------- C --------------- D
- 1 - Lab (14,869) --- Con (11,592) ----- Lib (5,742) ------- Grn (908)
- 2 - BNP (4,340) ----- BNP (444) -------- BNP (1,024) ------ Lab (1,215)
- 3 - Con (7,109) ----- Lib (3,401) ------ Lab (981) --------- Ind (62)

I have amended your table into voter groups to better represent reality (number of votes)

FPTP: Lab win

AV:

• Grn lose
• D's second vote would go to the Lab party. This now means Lab have an additional 1,215 votes from the D block which are added to Lab

*will not count for anything unless second choice party loses.

------ A ----------------- B --------------- C ---------- D
- 1 - Lab (16,084) --- Con (11,592) ---- Lib (5,742) ------- gone
- 2 - BNP (4,340) ----- BNP (444) ------- BNP (1,024) ------ t/o
- 3 - Con (7,109) --- Lib (3,401) ------- Lab (981) ----- Ind (62)*

Now the Lib has fewest votes so they are eliminated and block C has their 2nd vote distributed

------ A ---------------- B ---------------- C ------------ D
- 1 - Lab (16,084) --- Con (11,592) -------gone --------- gone
- 2 - BNP (4,340) ------- BNP (444) ------ BNP (1,024) --- t/o
- 3 - Con (7,109) --- Lib (3,401) ------- Lab (981)* ----- Ind (62)*

• The BNP now have 1024 votes
• This is not enough so the BNP are eliminated and so block C's third vote will be counted.
• Lab gain 981 third choice votes from block C's third choice

------ A ---------------- B ---------------- C ------------ D
- 1 - Lab (17,065) --- Con (11,592)---------gone -------- gone
- 2 - BNP (4,340) ------ BNP (444) -------- gone --------- t/o
- 3 - Con (7,109) ------ Lib (3,401) ------- t/o ------- Ind (62)*

• The Con party has the fewest votes.
• The BNP have been eliminated as have the Lib
• Ind's votes were not counted as second preferences used
• Therefore Lab wins

This is my interpretation of how AV works, it could well be wide of the mark though. AV certainly isn't as simple as FPTP!
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A very good point. If AV makes them work harder for votes then it is a good thing in my view. No system is perfect anyway.

I also think it should be easier for local people to oust their MP too. A limit on the number of terms as MP would be good too, maybe 3 as a maximum. More people who have lived a life outside politics first would be good than the same people in there for forty years.

I agree with the recall idea (notice how Clegg moved the goalposts when it looked like he might get recalled?) but not the maximum term one. Especially under FPTP when the majority of people will have little choice other than to send someone from the same party in. It's no secret that top ranking politicians always contest safe seats to the point where many are "dropped in" far away from home.

The "no" campaign are clearly working on those who know little of the benefits of AV, using health spending is designed to target those who are oblivious to any voting system.

This would be the kind of thing that would make me vote yes (assuming I was undecided)

I've found the whole thing very uninspiring tbh. The yes campaign haven't explained why it would be better, and the no campaign haven't explained why they think it's a bad thing! Still, if AV is so great, why the hell does virtually no country use it?!

A lot of countries use STV which is full PR whereas AV is only part PR.
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Introduce a minimum. Only in situations such as this would the AV be of any real use in my opinion. Stage a second vote the following day, this time using AV principles. But not for the main part of the election.

A minimum of 50%

 

[me123]

Have a look here. There's an excellent, unbiased video on the Electoral Commission website that explains what each voting method is.

Clicky (you can just run it all as one video)

Victor also shows the people from the "no" group why you only get one vote; because your vote is only transferred to another candidate once your first choice has been eliminated. Victor might also want to teach the schoolkids in the "no" campaign's video, because their teacher was a load of rubbish.

 

[HST Power]

You know what? After watching all these videos and hearing all these campaigns, I think I don't mind which system they use so long as the Conservatives are in power!

 

[Anon Mouse]

I'm a borderline Communist, but don't let that put anyone off!

I'm still undecided on the matter of the AV. I always vote Labour, and while there is no real alternative I always will. I have been critcal of our 'democracy' for years and I feel that people don't get a real choice anymore. Maybe the real answer would be a Peoples Democracy in the same vein as Cuba, but that is just wishful thinking......or is it? COME THE REVOLUTION!

 

[HST Power]

I'm still undecided on the matter of the AV. I always vote Labour, and while there is no real alternative I always will.

There are plenty of other alternatives. You can vote for the Conservative, Liberal Democrats, Green Party, BNP or even the Monster Raving Loony Party....

 

[Anon Mouse]

There are plenty of other alternatives. You can vote for the Conservative, Liberal Democrats, Green Party, BNP or even the Monster Raving Loony Party....

I voted Lib Dem in local and european elections in the past, but never again thanks to Clegg selling his parties soul the the Devil.

There is no point voting for small parties such as Socialist Worker, Green Party etc etc, its just a wasted vote due to our current system and AV won't change that. I have lost a lot of faith in the Labour party over the years, but my vote is always going to go their way. The Peoples flag is the deepest red.

 

[HST Power]

There is no point voting for small parties such as Socialist Worker, Green Party etc etc, its just a wasted vote due to our current system and AV won't change that. I have lost a lot of faith in the Labour party over the years, but my vote is always going to go their way. The Peoples flag is the deepest red.

I agree with you about the smaller parties. But not about the read flag part!!

 

[Anon Mouse]

I agree with you about the smaller parties. But not about the read flag part!!

I was expecting the same response!

 

[HST Power]

I was expecting the same response!

Well that's just my Tory side!

 

[Anon Mouse]

Well that's just my Tory side!

Just as a side point, a very good freind of mine was a true blue Tory until halfway through University and now he is also a Socialist Worker/borderline Anachist type! top lad!

 

[HST Power]

I have been a die-hard Conservative since the age of fourteen. I would require a substantial pay off to even think about voting for anybody else!

 

[Anon Mouse]

I have been a die-hard Conservative since the age of fourteen. I would require a substantial pay off to even think about voting for anybody else!

Thats what he said!

 

[BlythPower]

I have been a die-hard Conservative since the age of fourteen. I would require a substantial pay off to even think about voting for anybody else!

That's your LibDem side coming out, that is! A ministerial limo and you're anybody's.

 

[HST Power]

That's your LibDem side coming out, that is! A ministerial limo and you're anybody's.

I was joking, and joking big time! I wouldn't be seen dead voting for anyone other than the Conservatives!

My Tory allegiance is unbreakable!

 

[SS4]

I voted Lib Dem in local and european elections in the past, but never again thanks to Clegg selling his parties soul the the Devil.

I'm not sure when it comes to the local elections because a Tory/Lib Dem coalition has worked reasonably well. Chances are I'll vote Labour tactically to try and sweep the tories out (even though only a third of seats are up for election). Of course under a decent voting system I could simply give labour my second choice
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I was joking, and joking big time! I wouldn't be seen dead voting for anyone other than the Conservatives!

My Tory allegiance is unbreakable!

Forgive me if I'm being rude but is that because you agree with the policies each time or because you were raised that way so to speak?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Forgive me if I'm being rude but is that because you agree with the policies each time or because you were raised that way so to speak?

The latter is the reason Labour has kept Blackburn and surrounding areas for so many years. Well, not really Burnley

 

[SS4]

The latter is the reason Labour has kept Blackburn and surrounding areas for so many years. Well, not really Burnley

Yeah, I've noticed it to be the case with a lot of voters who tend to stick with one party simply because they were raised that way or voted for them first time around

 

[Seacook]

Here's my take

------ A -------------- B ---------------- C --------------- D
- 1 - Lab (14,869) --- Con (11,592) ----- Lib (5,742) ------- Grn (908)
- 2 - BNP (4,340) ----- BNP (444) -------- BNP (1,024) ------ Lab (1,215)
- 3 - Con (7,109) ----- Lib (3,401) ------ Lab (981) --------- Ind (62)

I have amended your table into voter groups to better represent reality (number of votes)

FPTP: Lab win

AV:

• Grn lose
• D's second vote would go to the Lab party. This now means Lab have an additional 1,215 votes from the D block which are added to Lab

*will not count for anything unless second choice party loses.

------ A ----------------- B --------------- C ---------- D
- 1 - Lab (16,084) --- Con (11,592) ---- Lib (5,742) ------- gone
- 2 - BNP (4,340) ----- BNP (444) ------- BNP (1,024) ------ t/o
- 3 - Con (7,109) --- Lib (3,401) ------- Lab (981) ----- Ind (62)*

Now the Lib has fewest votes so they are eliminated and block C has their 2nd vote distributed

------ A ---------------- B ---------------- C ------------ D
- 1 - Lab (16,084) --- Con (11,592) -------gone --------- gone
- 2 - BNP (4,340) ------- BNP (444) ------ BNP (1,024) --- t/o
- 3 - Con (7,109) --- Lib (3,401) ------- Lab (981)* ----- Ind (62)*

• The BNP now have 1024 votes
• This is not enough so the BNP are eliminated and so block C's third vote will be counted.
• Lab gain 981 third choice votes from block C's third choice

------ A ---------------- B ---------------- C ------------ D
- 1 - Lab (17,065) --- Con (11,592)---------gone -------- gone
- 2 - BNP (4,340) ------ BNP (444) -------- gone --------- t/o
- 3 - Con (7,109) ------ Lib (3,401) ------- t/o ------- Ind (62)*

• The Con party has the fewest votes.
• The BNP have been eliminated as have the Lib
• Ind's votes were not counted as second preferences used
• Therefore Lab wins

This is my interpretation of how AV works, it could well be wide of the mark though. AV certainly isn't as simple as FPTP!
-

Your interpretation is wrong. In the initial position (which, in fact, must be at least the third round since the BNP and Ind candidates must have been eliminated earlier) you have more votes for the group D second choice than their first; this is impossible. When the Lib Dem candidate is eliminated the votes can only be redistributed to remaining candidates - Lab or Con.

To illustrate, let us assume a four way contest between candidates Arthur, Beverley, Carol and Duncan.

Arthur is the first choice of 10000 voters, Beverley of 9000.

There are 3000 people who voted for Carol as their first choice.
700 of them had Arthur as second choice, 1500 Beverley, 700 Duncan and 100 had no second choice. Of the 700 who voted C/D 500 had Beverley third and 200 Arthur.

Duncan is the first choice for 1500 voters, of whom 500 have Carol second and Beverley third, 400 Carol then Arthur, 400 Beverley then Carol and 200 Arthur then Carol.

First round: A 10000, B 9000, C 3000, D 1500
No one has a majority of the votes so Duncan is eliminated.

Second round: A 10200, B 9400, C 3900
No one has a majority so Carol is eliminated.

Third round:
A 10000 + 200 (second choice after D) + 700 (2nd after C) + 400 (3rd after D and C) + 200 (3rd after C and D) = 11,500
B 9000 + 400 (2nd after D) + 1500 (2nd after C) + 500 (3rd after D and C) + 500 (3rd after C and D) = 11,900

Beverley is elected

This looks far more complicated than it really is, largely because there are n! groups of voters for n candidates - in this case 4 factorial (4! = 4x3x2x1 = 24) though this falls rapidly after each round - in the second round there are only 3x2x1 = 6 groups voting ABC, ACB, BAc, BCA, CAB or CBA, and in the final round only two AB or BA.

It is somewhat inaccurate to refer to second or third choices in multiple rounds what counts in, say, the fourth round of voting is your highest ranked remaining candidate - this could be your fourth choice but it makes no difference in what order your first three were eliminated, your vote must be applied to someone who is still in with a chance of winning.

 

[313103]

There are plenty of other alternatives. You can vote for the Conservative, Liberal Democrats, Green Party, BNP or even the Monster Raving Loony Party....

Plenty of alternatives.............. hmmm. Never whilst i am alive would i ever vote Conservative. I would now in future never consider voting Lib Dem especially as they jumped in bed with the tories that created this non elected government we now have. Green Party has got my vote before more as a tactical vote then anything else. bnp like the tory party would never get my vote i married someone outside there scope and policies. Monster raving loony party..... are we being serious?

In council elections i always vote Labour. For Mayor of London i voted for Ken. For the GLA i voted Green. My local MP is very vocal and raises many concerns about local issues and is also part of the RMT parlimentary group on Transport. Was one of the very few Labour MPs who increased his vote at the last election despite all the negative publicity about Labour.

 

[Zoe]

The thing is though New Labour these just are just Tory Lite and not socialist. I certainly wouldn't vote for them on socialist principles.

 

[313103]

The thing is though New Labour these just are just Tory Lite and not socialist. I certainly wouldn't vote for them on socialist principles.

One of the reasons i stopped being a member of the labour party, was down to Neil Kinnock expelling socailists from the party in the 1980s. They get my vote because voting tory and lib dem is not an option and in Islington that is the only thing that counts.

 

[142094]

As long as the Tories don't get in then I'm not bothered who I vote for, but will not be voting Lib Dem again for a good few decades.

 

[SS4]

As long as the Tories don't get in then I'm not bothered who I vote for, but will not be voting Lib Dem again for a good few decades.

Seconded! I would also like to see a referendum on any future boundary changes

 

[Ivo]

You lot really hate Clegg and co don't you? 12 months ago he looked like he really had a chance...!

Having gone through the AV information a bit more carefully, I am siding with No. I'm still probably going to pass on actually voting though.

 

[142094]

The real shame is that the Lib Dems were looking like they could actually have been the real third party that this country needs. However he has put them back at least 10-20 years by doing what he did, plus I bet his flagship policy of introducing AV gets knocked back in his face by the electorate.

 

[Zoe]

The real shame is that the Lib Dems were looking like they could actually have been the real third party that this country needs.

They forced Kennedy into resigning and since then the party has moved to the right so it isn't that much of a surprise that they are supporting the Tories.