The approach taken by Merseyrail regarding byelaw enforcement

[The North Briton]

I really do not like the militant approach that is taken by Merseyrail with their agressive revenue protection staff and byelaw enforcement staff, but that is another story. I think the whole culture of the network is intimidating and wrong.

It's because Merseyrail take anti-social behaviour (which feet on the seats undoubtedly is) seriously, that I find their culture safe and reassuring.

 

[8J]

On other TOCs, I've seen guards asking people to put their feet off the seats and as soon as the guard walks away, the feet go straight back up so perhaps a hardline approach that Merseyrail apply isn't that bad. Having said that I was travelling on a Northern service in the Merseyside area this week and the guard chucked somebody off for continually putting his feet up. I suspect that said passengers case wasn't helped by the torrent of verbal abuse he gave to the guard.

 

[Stigy]

On other TOCs, I've seen guards asking people to put their feet off the seats and as soon as the guard walks away, the feet go straight back up so perhaps a hardline approach that Merseyrail apply isn't that bad. Having said that I was travelling on a Northern service in the Merseyside area this week and the guard chucked somebody off for continually putting his feet up. I suspect that said passengers case wasn't helped by the torrent of verbal abuse he gave to the guard.

I give people a couple of chances, and on the third breach I report them for the offence. If their shoes are disgustingly dirty (as if being used on a building site), I'll report them straight away. Of course any evidence such as photos helps.

 

[185]

My word, it's ten years since this (unsuccessful) 2007 case:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562141/Feet-on-seat-student-escapes-conviction.html

Magistrates have criticised a rail company for its "draconian" decision to take a promising young student to court because she rested her feet on a train seat. Kathleen Jennings, a cub scout leader who also works with disabled children, could have been left with a career-threatening criminal record had she been convicted of a criminal offence. But she walked free from court, without a stain on her character, and wiped tears from her eyes after being given an absolute discharge by Chester magistrates. Although she had admitted the charge, the absolute discharge means no criminal offence will be recorded and she will suffer no penalty.

However, after giving her an absolute discharge, Christine Abrams, Court Chairman, said: "The bench is united in feeling that whilst this is contrary to a byelaw, we feel that Merseyrail should have a less draconian method of dealing with matters of this nature. A fixed penalty system may be more appropriate." An application for £150 towards prosecution costs in the case brought by Merseyrail was also rejected by the three magistrates.

So, yeah, they threw that case out, but is it worth the risk of going to a (criminal) court over?

 

[najaB]

My word, it's ten years since this (unsuccessful) 2007 case:

...could have been left with a career-threatening criminal record had she been convicted of a criminal offence....

For a Byelaw offence?

 

[185]

It was at Chester mags, I remember the case well.

I always thought some non-recordable things do show up on checks for certain jobs subject to the level of DBS check. Yes, technically wrong, but essentially correct in that it could (to the nth degree) affect someones job.

 

[Camden]

That singular case failed in the circumstances, and I believe changes were made to take that into account. As I recall, at the time, the only tool at their disposal was prosecution.

A very cursory search returns this: http://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/news/southport-news/five-people-prosecuted-after-being-8747771 from only two years ago which shows that the rules are clearly still being enforced.

And rightly so.

The entirely reasonable policy is explained here: https://www.merseyrail.org/about-merseyrail/revenue-protection-policy.aspx

 

[185143]

I really do not like the militant approach that is taken by Merseyrail with their agressive revenue protection staff and byelaw enforcement staff, but that is another story. I think the whole culture of the network is intimidating and wrong.

Whyever not? I travel on the Merseyrail network a hell of a lot-I see Byelaw Enforcement officers fairly frequently too. (To the extent that a couple of them say hi and ask where I'm off to today after they've stormed through the train!) I fully support them in enforcing the byelaws. Quite frankly I wish other TOCs would have the balls to enforce the byelaws so rigourously! It may be heavy handed-but it seems to work.

 

[gray1404]

Whyever not? I travel on the Merseyrail network a hell of a lot-I see Byelaw Enforcement officers fairly frequently too. (To the extent that a couple of them say hi and ask where I'm off to today after they've stormed through the train!) I fully support them in enforcing the byelaws. Quite frankly I wish other TOCs would have the balls to enforce the byelaws so rigourously! It may be heavy handed-but it seems to work.

Why not, I think it is intimidating and not customer focused. It is like they are there on watch trying to catch you out. Not good at all. Defiantly heavy handed! I think they should deal with the issues without being militant and heavy handed. A more friendly bylaw and revenue protection approach would be better. Perhaps they could then deliver great professional customer service to build relationships and trust with customers, without the need to be intimidating. Someone on this forum once described it as "rent a thug."

 

[bb21]

On other TOCs, I've seen guards asking people to put their feet off the seats and as soon as the guard walks away, the feet go straight back up so perhaps a hardline approach that Merseyrail apply isn't that bad. Having said that I was travelling on a Northern service in the Merseyside area this week and the guard chucked somebody off for continually putting his feet up. I suspect that said passengers case wasn't helped by the torrent of verbal abuse he gave to the guard.

I threw someone off the train a few months back for exactly that. I normally quickly point out to them and once they comply I walk away as usually I have other jobs to do when patrolling trains.

On that occasion I got a mouthful back from a middle-aged man, who upon me presenting company ID, merrily claimed that he knew I was not allowed to throw him off the train due to the delay it would cause, so at the next station, he found out to his disappointment that I held the train and got the guard to make an announcement...

Best bit was that as it turned out, there was no more service from that station for 3 hours due to an incident nearby.

 

[Polarbear]

Whilst I'm not a big fan of Merseyrail's approach to ticketing & Penalty Fares (they don't sell the full range of tickets at unstaffed stations), I do think a robust approach to anti-social behaviour is needed.

Unfortunately, there are a small number of scroates living in & around the Merseyrail catchment area who seem to think they can do pretty much anything on the local public transport & feet on seats is but one of those things.

I'm not saying that the OP falls into this category, but as someone who has had to dry-clean their clothes on more than one occasion due to the after effects of the seemingly innocuous placing of feet on seats, I'm all for strict enforcement on this score.

 

[gray1404]

I'm not saying that the OP falls into this category, but as someone who has had to dry-clean their clothes on more than one occasion due to the after effects of the seemingly innocuous placing of feet on seats, I'm all for strict enforcement on this score.

If that happens again, report it to the company, Merseyrail. The least they can do is pay the dry cleaning bill.

I had something similar in Tesco and they paid for it to be dry cleaned. Even though customers should not be placing their feet on and soiling the seats, it is up to Merseyrail to ensure that customers clothing does not become damaged using their services.

 

[Camden]

Why not, I think it is intimidating and not customer focused. It is like they are there on watch trying to catch you out. Not good at all. Defiantly heavy handed! I think they should deal with the issues without being militant and heavy handed. A more friendly bylaw and revenue protection approach would be better. Perhaps they could then deliver great professional customer service to build relationships and trust with customers, without the need to be intimidating. Someone on this forum once described it as "rent a thug."

I find it very hard to see things from your perspective. If you find big men in hi viz intimidating when they are doing nothing more than checking tickets and taking idiots to task, then I can only imagine how intimidating you must have found Merseyrail in the early 90s when they weren't there. I remember it well.

If you haven't got your feet on the seats, aren't causing trouble or travelling ticketless, they aren't interested in you. Travelling by Merseyrail is a very straightforward affair with no careful judgement by customers needed in order to instinctively comply with the very simple rules and not get "caught out" as you put it. Millions of people manage it every year without a second's thought. I assume you included.

Good luck "building relationships" with those who don't want to pay for their tickets, those who want to smoke on trains, put their feet up, hurl abuse, fight, rip seats up and chuck them out of the windows and so on. None of that happens on Merseyrail you say? That's right, they don't now.

You only have the luxury of your Corbyn's-By-Proxy purely because the network has been made safe for you by the methods and people you criticise. Take away that protection and it would be interesting to see how long you maintained your views. Perhaps we could even remove all gateline staff and replace them with honesty boxes? How do you think that would work out?

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about little things, at the same time considering big things neither here nor there. I usually find Merseyrail staff to be very professional (friendly, helpful).

 

[Camden]

It is up to Merseyrail to ensure that customers clothing does not become damaged using their services.

I doubt that it is their responsibility to guarantee against incidental soiling. Responsibility might arise if they were negligent in some way but as it stands
they could point to their extensive efforts to see to it that passengers are able to travel confident that their clothes won't be soiled.

 

[gray1404]

To put it another way, customer spills something in a supermarket. Another customer falls over because of this or indeed gets it onto the clothing, the supermarket is liable. Liable despite any efforts they might have to regularly clean the store.

 

[Camden]

To put it another way, customer spills something in a supermarket. Another customer falls over because of this or indeed gets it onto the clothing, the supermarket is liable. Liable despite any efforts they might have to regularly clean the store.

Go on then, next time you're on a train and you get a mark on your clothes, let's see how far you get.

 

[najaB]

To put it another way, customer spills something in a supermarket. Another customer falls over because of this or indeed gets it onto the clothing, the supermarket is liable. Liable despite any efforts they might have to regularly clean the store.

While that's generally the case, my understanding is that there is a reasonableness test applied. In your example, the question would be asked "How long was the spill there? Was it reasonable to expect that it would have been detected and cleaned up before the person slipped?"

If the answer was "30 seconds. And it was way in the back of the store." then any liability will be significantly less than if the answer was "30 minutes. And it was right between two cashiers."

 

[johnmoly]

I thought that case was only about three to four years ago. Time does fly when your getting old.

 

[trainophile]

There are notices on every Merseyrail train, and most stations have a poster with the bylaws clearly stated. No excuse for thinking you are above the rules.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if people were reasonable and didn't do it in the first place, and behaved better, there would be no need for these staff.

 

[trainophile]

I noticed a poster headed Code of Conduct on the Hereford to Birmingham LM train this morning, which included a "No feet on seats" instruction, along with having a valid ticket, keeping off the tracks, respecting others and using the bins. The poster read "To help keep everyone safe we proactively enforce these principles".

I guess that they would not be able to issue a penalty for feet on seats, or take a perpetrator to court, as it appears to be advisory rather than a bylaw, but it shows the message about this particular antisocial habit is becoming generally enforced.

 

[185143]

For the record, I have attached the byelaw notice situated at each station. (I won't name the station as I fancy using it in 'Guess the Station' one day)

 

[jonathan01n]

I think merseyrail should change the seat layout like the ones in MTR in Hong Kong. Then no one will put their feet on the seats.

 

[takno]

I noticed a poster headed Code of Conduct on the Hereford to Birmingham LM train this morning, which included a "No feet on seats" instruction, along with having a valid ticket, keeping off the tracks, respecting others and using the bins. The poster read "To help keep everyone safe we proactively enforce these principles".

I guess that they would not be able to issue a penalty for feet on seats, or take a perpetrator to court, as it appears to be advisory rather than a bylaw, but it shows the message about this particular antisocial habit is becoming generally enforced.

Fairly sure the LM trains from Hereford to Birmingham have had signs about not putting your feet on the seats on them going back to pre-sprinter days. Incidentally, that's a horrific use of the word proactive - suggests that they're looking out for people with muddy boots and saying to them "be sure not to go putting them on the seats now"

 

[trainophile]

Fairly sure the LM trains from Hereford to Birmingham have had signs about not putting your feet on the seats on them going back to pre-sprinter days. Incidentally, that's a horrific use of the word proactive - suggests that they're looking out for people with muddy boots and saying to them "be sure not to go putting them on the seats now"

You are probably right about the signs having been around for a long time, but I only noticed one for the first time today.

As for the use of "proactive", yes it does sound like there's a general boot inspection on boarding . I was rather more bemused by the use of "enforce" - in what way would they enforce these requests? Confiscation of the offending footwear?

 

[gray1404]

If I am ever on a Merseyrail train and I see the meat heads starting to come through and someone has their feet on the seats, I tell them to get them down quick.

 

[bramling]

If that happens again, report it to the company, Merseyrail. The least they can do is pay the dry cleaning bill.

I had something similar in Tesco and they paid for it to be dry cleaned. Even though customers should not be placing their feet on and soiling the seats, it is up to Merseyrail to ensure that customers clothing does not become damaged using their services.

The Night Tube in London could do with some enforcement. Seats double up as urinals to the extent one has to be seriously careful before sitting down.

 

[Loop & Link]

Deleted

 

[gray1404]

Thankfully I have never had any dealings with them. But then I have never put my feet on the seat and never would. I do not agree with the way this issue is being dealt with and believe there are better methods that should be applied. Less intimidating ways that still reduce the number of feet on seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Night Tube in London could do with some enforcement. Seats double up as urinals to the extent one has to be seriously careful before sitting down.

What, really? I can see that people may see the need to urinate during the journey, but I'd have expected the inter-coach connections or maybe a discarded bottle or cup, not the seats.