• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

The decline of GWR...

Status
Not open for further replies.

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,231
The same capacity as 2x5 means losing the extra capacity that would come from 1x10 - capacity that is worth a full carriage and is already needed now.

You know full well that we are still in the middle of the reshaping of Thames Valley inner and outer suburban services, so there is plenty of extra capacity still to come, including further 12-car 387s, and extra morning peak services from Swindon due in January. Outside the peaks, 10-car single-unit IETs would be a waste of resources on many GWR services, just the same as an all 9-car fleet would be.

We don't know the impact that Crossrail will have on travel habits - whether people will continue to change at Paddington or opt for a through run, albeit with more stops, direct to/from the West End and the City, etc, etc. And we won't have a clear picture for a couple of years.

Unfortunately the precedent has already been firmly established and 1x5 in the peak is already quite routine. 1x6 or 1x7 should be an off peak formation with no coupling of sets required.

Routine - really? It happens, yes, but routine, deliberate, or anything else? Hardly. You are presumably well aware of the staffing/training issues that are the root cause of current problems.

And what exactly is supposed to happen in the peaks when you want a train that is longer than 1x6 or 1x7 but you can't, because 2x6 fouls the points or axle counters in the Paddington throat?

As for 'exceptional circumstances' I think most people not least the RMT know this means Train Managers become a nice to have on all routes as well as Oxford.

Most people? Really? Show us the evidence then - is there some properly-conducted statistical survey to back up your statement?

I'm afraid that the RMT's over-the-top pronouncements do them few favours on many occasions and you seem to following in the same vein.

Could you enlighten those of us living in places where IETs serve stations with limited/no ticket facilities how exactly fares are going to be collected if there is no staff member on board to do it? Driver hops out and walks down the platform selling/checking tickets before opening the doors, perhaps?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
You know full well that we are still in the middle of the reshaping of Thames Valley inner and outer suburban services, so there is plenty of extra capacity still to come, including further 12-car 387s, and extra morning peak services from Swindon due in January. Outside the peaks, 10-car single-unit IETs would be a waste of resources on many GWR services, just the same as an all 9-car fleet would be.

We don't know the impact that Crossrail will have on travel habits - whether people will continue to change at Paddington or opt for a through run, albeit with more stops, direct to/from the West End and the City, etc, etc. And we won't have a clear picture for a couple of years.



Routine - really? It happens, yes, but routine, deliberate, or anything else? Hardly. You are presumably well aware of the staffing/training issues that are the root cause of current problems.

And what exactly is supposed to happen in the peaks when you want a train that is longer than 1x6 or 1x7 but you can't, because 2x6 fouls the points or axle counters in the Paddington throat?



Most people? Really? Show us the evidence then - is there some properly-conducted statistical survey to back up your statement?

I'm afraid that the RMT's over-the-top pronouncements do them few favours on many occasions and you seem to following in the same vein.

Could you enlighten those of us living in places where IETs serve stations with limited/no ticket facilities how exactly fares are going to be collected if there is no staff member on board to do it? Driver hops out and walks down the platform selling/checking tickets before opening the doors, perhaps?

Routine means a sequence of actions that is followed regularly. I haven't said anything else, but routine, yes that is a simple fact.

In similar fashion once Train Managers become optional they will also go the same way. Given that on most long distance operators you can often travel for hours without a ticket check, even in areas without automatic ticket gates, this doesn't seem to be regarded as much of a problem.

Most railways are geared to cater for peak demand. You don't see the likes of SWT not doing a 10 car suburban railway because 10 cars would be a waste outside the peak!
 

theironroad

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
3,697
Location
London
You know full well that we are still in the middle of the reshaping of Thames Valley inner and outer suburban services, so there is plenty of extra capacity still to come, including further 12-car 387s, and extra morning peak services from Swindon due in January. Outside the peaks, 10-car single-unit IETs would be a waste of resources on many GWR services, just the same as an all 9-car fleet would be.

We don't know the impact that Crossrail will have on travel habits - whether people will continue to change at Paddington or opt for a through run, albeit with more stops, direct to/from the West End and the City, etc, etc. And we won't have a clear picture for a couple of years.



Routine - really? It happens, yes, but routine, deliberate, or anything else? Hardly. You are presumably well aware of the staffing/training issues that are the root cause of current problems.

And what exactly is supposed to happen in the peaks when you want a train that is longer than 1x6 or 1x7 but you can't, because 2x6 fouls the points or axle counters in the Paddington throat?



Most people? Really? Show us the evidence then - is there some properly-conducted statistical survey to back up your statement?

I'm afraid that the RMT's over-the-top pronouncements do them few favours on many occasions and you seem to following in the same vein.

Could you enlighten those of us living in places where IETs serve stations with limited/no ticket facilities how exactly fares are going to be collected if there is no staff member on board to do it? Driver hops out and walks down the platform selling/checking tickets before opening the doors, perhaps?

Once it becomes optional to have a train manager/conductor/guard then the staffing costs will come under scrutiny, especially when revenue is under pressure and a toc is looking at a cost cutting exercise. Question is does having a guard on board every train financially outweigh any loss of revenue from unstaffed stations and occasional revenue inspector checks. Also does taking on board staff off of trains deter enough people from travelling by train. Certainly for limited mobility passengers etc it might, but overall????
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,455
Location
UK
Once it becomes optional to have a train manager/conductor/guard then the staffing costs will come under scrutiny, especially when revenue is under pressure and a toc is looking at a cost cutting exercise. Question is does having a guard on board every train financially outweigh any loss of revenue from unstaffed stations and occasional revenue inspector checks. Also does taking on board staff off of trains deter enough people from travelling by train. Certainly for limited mobility passengers etc it might, but overall????

But the Oxford fasts are entirely within a PF zone, and all the stations served are fully staffed with ticket barriers.
 

wils180

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2016
Messages
73
But the Oxford fasts are entirely within a PF zone, and all the stations served are fully staffed with ticket barriers.

most of the stations I work through have barriers and the amount of excesses for people on invalid tickets, and also entirely new tickets I sell to people showed me just how vulnerable gatelines can be
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,134
That the RMT apparently still won't leave things alone over what will be a limited number of DOO services on a single route where DOO operation has been a fact of life for 25 years - and will be at a reduced level in future anyway - is just silly, frankly.
I’m not suggesting for one second Southern did a faultless job, however all GWR and Scotrail likley achieved by capitulating was ensuring more prolonged and entrenched industrial disputes for the users of northern,southern SWR, GA, Merseyrail and as you say possibly even again on GWR.I think you’ll find rail has nearly always been best served by a system of strong central planning, even DFT gets that now, I think .
 
Last edited:

tiptoptaff

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2013
Messages
3,029
I haven't seen anything anywhere to suggest in any way that GWR will drop TMs from anything that they currently operate on. The DOO 800s to OXD are part of the existing DOO agreement with Aslef, as traction is not specified. There are desires or plans to remove Guards from any services they currently work anywhere in the business. And as stated above, not all 800s to OXD will be DOO and there will still be a great need for TMs on the route than currently.

Mention DOO and the forum is in hysterics. As do RMT - who are kicking a stink for the sake of kicking a stink.
 
Joined
31 Jul 2010
Messages
360
It makes less sense to implement full DOO on GWR at least at this stage. On longer distance trains the second person is much more less at risk. I see it being unlikely you’ll have an intercity train from Paddington to Penzance with no Guard or On Board Supervisor they do much more than just the doors so to speak. Managing on board staff, providing customer service and so on. Even if they went to DCO I think you’d always have an On Board Supervisor present just look at the situation at the moment if operating 2 5 car 800s in unison they have to have a member of staff in each unit let alone no one in the entire train.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,231
Routine means a sequence of actions that is followed regularly. I haven't said anything else, but routine, yes that is a simple fact.

A simple fact? So you are simply going to set aside all the issues that you know all about and suggest this is some kind of concerted policy deliberately being followed by GWR to be nasty to passengers - as opposed to being something that they are striving to avoid. Not helped by them still waiting for delivery of the last few five-car IETs, that should already be in revenue-earning service, so any margin for faulty trains is near enough non-existent.

In similar fashion once Train Managers become optional they will also go the same way. Given that on most long distance operators you can often travel for hours without a ticket check, even in areas without automatic ticket gates, this doesn't seem to be regarded as much of a problem.

So when are train managers becoming optional on GWR? How many more times do you need to be told there will be more GWR services with train managers on board as a result of IETs entering service?

Most railways are geared to cater for peak demand. You don't see the likes of SWT not doing a 10 car suburban railway because 10 cars would be a waste outside the peak!

Since when has the key function of GWR's long-distance trains been to provide a suburban railway? They may assist with that at the moment, due to things like there not having been any new rolling stock provided for GW suburban services from 1993 until 2016, but the ongoing reshaping of Thames Valley services should ease the need for that - and quite a lot of suburban rolling stock in use on routes around London goes and sits in sidings doing precisely nothing between the peaks, including on SWR - trying looking up all the empty stock moves between Waterloo and Clapham yard or Wimbledon.

Once it becomes optional to have a train manager/conductor/guard then the staffing costs will come under scrutiny, especially when revenue is under pressure and a toc is looking at a cost cutting exercise. Question is does having a guard on board every train financially outweigh any loss of revenue from unstaffed stations and occasional revenue inspector checks. Also does taking on board staff off of trains deter enough people from travelling by train. Certainly for limited mobility passengers etc it might, but overall????

As above, when is having a train manager on GWR IETs becoming optional?
 

Charlie M.

Member
Joined
4 Oct 2015
Messages
170
Location
Gloucester
What GWR? Shortage of Train Crew? You must be kidding!

At least when their is a cancellation Gloucester and Cheltenham passengers can go to Parkway.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,134
if operating 2 5 car 800s in unison they have to have a member of staff in each unit let alone no one in the entire train.
As others have stated previously that’ll just be TOC policy, possibly part of the union agreement on introducing IEP on GWR, many types of stock including GWRs own 25yr old turbos don’t require staff presence in every individual non corridor unit of a complete train in order to run in passenger service.
 
Last edited:

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
GWR Journey Check today has been showing no toilets throughout the day on the St. Ives Branch. Why mention this when it is a frequent occurrence. There are TWO 150/2s working it so double out of use.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
2,492
GWR Journey Check today has been showing no toilets throughout the day on the St. Ives Branch. Why mention this when it is a frequent occurrence. There are TWO 150/2s working it so double out of use.

Pardon me - assuming your location is accurate (Caerphilly), how do you know it is a regular occurrence if it doesn’t appear on Journey Check?
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,787
Location
Herts
Pardon me - assuming your location is accurate (Caerphilly), how do you know it is a regular occurrence if it doesn’t appear on Journey Check?

No working toilet on a 13 min journey is hardly critical .....inconvenient yes - but the train service had the half term capacity required. Assuming the weather was not of the Biblical nature we have enjoyed here this afternoon ....
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
A simple fact? So you are simply going to set aside all the issues that you know all about and suggest this is some kind of concerted policy deliberately being followed by GWR to be nasty to passengers - as opposed to being something that they are striving to avoid.

I haven't suggested anything of the sort. The short formations in the peak are routine and are also a fact. Other franchises like West Coast operate very high levels of reliability without needing divisible trainsets and asking customers to choose between having no train, or half of one.


So when are train managers becoming optional on GWR?

--------

The full letter from FGW to staff is in a thread here somewhere. It said something along the lines that only in exceptional circumstances would a train operate without a train manager

I am not proposing a semantic debate on this, but when something is no longer mandatory it is optional. Of course the RMT know perfectly well that once Train Managers aren't mandatory, they will not recruit or roster to deliver 100% coverage as with manning of ticket gates or having revenue protection onboard to give two examples. And again the difficulty in collecting the money doesn't guarantee the ticket gates will be in use, even 75% of the time.

How many more times do you need to be told there will be more GWR services with train managers on board as a result of IETs entering service?

You should audition for Question Time. If you increase the number of long distance services by say 30% but run go from running 0% to 20% of them without a Train Manager you still have more services operating that have a Train Manager than you did before, even though 20% of them don't have a Train Manager.

Since when has the key function of GWR's long-distance trains been to provide a suburban railway? They may assist with that at the moment, due to things like there not having been any new rolling stock provided for GW suburban services from 1993 until 2016, but the ongoing reshaping of Thames Valley services should ease the need for that - and quite a lot of suburban rolling stock in use on routes around London goes and sits in sidings doing precisely nothing between the peaks, including on SWR - trying looking up all the empty stock moves between Waterloo and Clapham yard or Wimbledon.

Since forever!

Nobody at Reading will buy a season ticket and travel to London on a stopping train. If that is the idea, who plans on telling them that the biggest investment since Victorian times means it will take as long to get to Paddington as when she was on the throne?

Even if you tried to ram even more fast trains into a very congested and unreliable railway there are so few paths that the crowding at certain parts of the hour will not be touched. Like it or not the long distance trains are serving that market, not merely assisting, and unless you can find at least another 4 well spaced fast paths into London you won't change that. Which probably can't happen without evicting Heathrow Express, while continuing to have all the long distance trains calling. Crossrail will simply increase the demand for fast travel to London further as Reading moves much closer to the City and Docklands.

It is pretty basic stuff that when the railway is congested, you maximise capacity offered per path, which the 2x5 / 1x9 formats fail to do. GWR must be a real outlier in passing over extra peak capacity for fear of having too much off peak capacity.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
Pardon me - assuming your location is accurate (Caerphilly), how do you know it is a regular occurrence if it doesn’t appear on Journey Check?

Eh ? The entry of toiletless trains often shows on Journey Check even over the distance from Cardiff to Portsmouth on occasions.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
2,492
Eh ? The entry of toiletless trains often shows on Journey Check even over the distance from Cardiff to Portsmouth on occasions.

Yes, but you’re implying it’s a regular occurrence and doesn’t appear regularly on Journey Check. How do you know toilets are out of use, if it’s not publicised? I imagine your post was a general bash at GWR, rather than specific to the St Ives service, despite the phrasing.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
Yes, but you’re implying it’s a regular occurrence and doesn’t appear regularly on Journey Check. How do you know toilets are out of use, if it’s not publicised? I imagine your post was a general bash at GWR, rather than specific to the St Ives service, despite the phrasing.

Don't understand what you are getting at. Info from JOURNEY CHECK and many such instances PUBLISHED ON JOURNEY CHECK, not confined to St Ives but over the system in general. Shall I draw a diagram to explain ?
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
2,492
Don't understand what you are getting at. Info from JOURNEY CHECK and many such instances PUBLISHED ON JOURNEY CHECK, not confined to St Ives but over the system in general. Shall I draw a diagram to explain ?

There’s no need to be rude. You said ‘why mention this when it is a frequent occurrence.’ This infers that toilets are regularly locked out of use, but that GWR do not normally publish it on Journey Check.

And so my question to you is - if it isn’t regularly published on Journey Check that toilets are not working, how do you know toilets on GWR services are regularly out of order?

Alternatively, if toilets are regularly out of use and it IS regularly published on JC, what was your actual point at all???

Ye gods.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,231
I haven't suggested anything of the sort. The short formations in the peak are routine and are also a fact. Other franchises like West Coast operate very high levels of reliability without needing divisible trainsets and asking customers to choose between having no train, or half of one.

That something happens occasionally does not make that something routine.

What's West Coast got to do with what happens on GWR? Different areas, different requirements. And I think you'll find that when one Voyager in a 2x5 formation breaks, then Virgin will send out, er, one set, as opposed to offering no train...

I am not proposing a semantic debate on this, but when something is no longer mandatory it is optional. Of course the RMT know perfectly well that once Train Managers aren't mandatory, they will not recruit or roster to deliver 100% coverage as with manning of ticket gates or having revenue protection onboard to give two examples. And again the difficulty in collecting the money doesn't guarantee the ticket gates will be in use, even 75% of the time.

You should audition for Question Time. If you increase the number of long distance services by say 30% but run go from running 0% to 20% of them without a Train Manager you still have more services operating that have a Train Manager than you did before, even though 20% of them don't have a Train Manager.

What debate is there to be had? Never mind appearances on Question Time. As has been pointed out rather a lot just up this thread the only DOO operation of IETs that we are going to see any time soon on GWR will be on London-Oxford only fasts and London-Bedwyn services - ie the places where there is already a DOO agreement in place with Aslef and has been to cover Turbo operations since 1993 - and that ALL Cotswold Line IETs will have a train manager on board throughout the journey to and from Paddington, whereas many Turbo services on the route ran DOO east of Oxford. You know that's more services with a train manager, so more work for train managers, not less. Is that so hard to grasp?

You can go on and on about what the RMT supposedly knows, but there is no indication anything will be changing on GWR services any time soon.

Since forever!

Nobody at Reading will buy a season ticket and travel to London on a stopping train. If that is the idea, who plans on telling them that the biggest investment since Victorian times means it will take as long to get to Paddington as when she was on the throne?

Even if you tried to ram even more fast trains into a very congested and unreliable railway there are so few paths that the crowding at certain parts of the hour will not be touched. Like it or not the long distance trains are serving that market, not merely assisting, and unless you can find at least another 4 well spaced fast paths into London you won't change that. Which probably can't happen without evicting Heathrow Express, while continuing to have all the long distance trains calling. Crossrail will simply increase the demand for fast travel to London further as Reading moves much closer to the City and Docklands.

It is pretty basic stuff that when the railway is congested, you maximise capacity offered per path, which the 2x5 / 1x9 formats fail to do. GWR must be a real outlier in passing over extra peak capacity for fear of having too much off peak capacity.

No, not since forever.

The levels of commuting seen at Reading nowadays were unimaginable back when the HST was being designed in the early 1970s - that's why the first GWML HSTs entered service with all of seven coaches, two of which were first class, one of which was a kitchen-restaurant car with a couple of dozen seats and yet another a buffet with four bays of second class seats, and just three TSOs per set, all up seating something like 370 passengers.

Does that sound like a train designed to shift crowds of commuters from Reading, Didcot or anywhere else? They were a world away from today's eight-car, high-density HSTs seating the best part of 600 people.

And a relative of mine bought a season ticket from Reading and travelled to Waterloo on trains making quite a lot of stops for many years because he worked on the South Bank and preferred to use the South Western route, whatever the supposed advantages of the GW route plus the Bakerloo Line. He wasn't the only one.

Like it or not, you still haven't seen the full shape of the future timetable in the Thames Valley, nor do you know what people may or may not do in terms of travel choices once all that is in place. Just because Reading commuters may want to stick to fast services does not mean some passengers at Maidenhead, for example, may take a different view of getting straight on a Crossrail service there.

If you don't want to listen when told why there are 2x5 and 1x9 formations, that's up to you - but there is no getting away from the fact that 1x10 formations would be expensive white elephants for large parts of the day on large parts of the GWR network - in the Thames Valley just as much as rural outposts. Never mind chucking 1x6 or 1x7 formations into the mix, which are neither fish nor fowl when it comes to maximising capacity in the peaks. And there would never be 4tph to Bristol off-peak if GWR was running a fleet of behemoths and nothing else.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
There’s no need to be rude. You said ‘why mention this when it is a frequent occurrence.’ This infers that toilets are regularly locked out of use, but that GWR do not normally publish it on Journey Check.

And so my question to you is - if it isn’t regularly published on Journey Check that toilets are not working, how do you know toilets on GWR services are regularly out of order?

Alternatively, if toilets are regularly out of use and it IS regularly published on JC, what was your actual point at all???

Ye gods.

Sorry if I came across as being rude so apologies. The only source of info that I receive regarding toilets is from Journey Check so perhaps I should have said that toilets are out of use quite frequently rather than regularly. The idea of this particular post was to highlight the fact there was no working toilet despite the trains being formed with 2 x 150/2s indicating toilets o/o/o on both units.
 

gallafent

Member
Joined
23 Dec 2010
Messages
517
If you don't want to listen when told why there are 2x5 and 1x9 formations, that's up to you - but there is no getting away from the fact that 1x10 formations would be expensive white elephants for large parts of the day on large parts of the GWR network - in the Thames Valley just as much as rural outposts.

Absolutely right. As pleasant it is taking an HST from Oxford to London in late morning (The 1101 say), since there are so few people in the rearmost coaches, making for a very tranquil journey, it certainly thus doesn't feel a particularly efficient use of the miles added to all that rolling stock! A five-coach IET will be a far more appropriate train for that journey, and I imagine that's what it will be in due course. Having said that, though, the 1001, which has been a five-coach IET for some time now, sometimes feels uncomfortably busy and seems to be standing room only from Slough quite frequently. I'm hoping that that one will either turn into a nine-coach, or (perhaps better) get a second five-coach added at Oxford (I'm assuming there aren't going to be any joins/splits at Reading, though that might be an interesting option in the future to get the capacity right where it's needed — the train isn't rammed from Oxford, and that way we add capacity on the busiest section of the route without taking any more paths … just a thought …)
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
That something happens occasionally does not make that something routine.

What's West Coast got to do with what happens on GWR? Different areas, different requirements. And I think you'll find that when one Voyager in a 2x5 formation breaks, then Virgin will send out, er, one set, as opposed to offering no train...



What debate is there to be had? Never mind appearances on Question Time. As has been pointed out rather a lot just up this thread the only DOO operation of IETs that we are going to see any time soon on GWR will be on London-Oxford only fasts and London-Bedwyn services - ie the places where there is already a DOO agreement in place with Aslef and has been to cover Turbo operations since 1993 - and that ALL Cotswold Line IETs will have a train manager on board throughout the journey to and from Paddington, whereas many Turbo services on the route ran DOO east of Oxford. You know that's more services with a train manager, so more work for train managers, not less. Is that so hard to grasp?

You can go on and on about what the RMT supposedly knows, but there is no indication anything will be changing on GWR services any time soon.



No, not since forever.

The levels of commuting seen at Reading nowadays were unimaginable back when the HST was being designed in the early 1970s - that's why the first GWML HSTs entered service with all of seven coaches, two of which were first class, one of which was a kitchen-restaurant car with a couple of dozen seats and yet another a buffet with four bays of second class seats, and just three TSOs per set, all up seating something like 370 passengers.

Does that sound like a train designed to shift crowds of commuters from Reading, Didcot or anywhere else? They were a world away from today's eight-car, high-density HSTs seating the best part of 600 people.

And a relative of mine bought a season ticket from Reading and travelled to Waterloo on trains making quite a lot of stops for many years because he worked on the South Bank and preferred to use the South Western route, whatever the supposed advantages of the GW route plus the Bakerloo Line. He wasn't the only one.

Like it or not, you still haven't seen the full shape of the future timetable in the Thames Valley, nor do you know what people may or may not do in terms of travel choices once all that is in place. Just because Reading commuters may want to stick to fast services does not mean some passengers at Maidenhead, for example, may take a different view of getting straight on a Crossrail service there.

If you don't want to listen when told why there are 2x5 and 1x9 formations, that's up to you - but there is no getting away from the fact that 1x10 formations would be expensive white elephants for large parts of the day on large parts of the GWR network - in the Thames Valley just as much as rural outposts. Never mind chucking 1x6 or 1x7 formations into the mix, which are neither fish nor fowl when it comes to maximising capacity in the peaks. And there would never be 4tph to Bristol off-peak if GWR was running a fleet of behemoths and nothing else.

The letter sounds clear that an IET will be allowed to go without a Train Manager, I am not seeing that limited to any particular line. That clearly makes Train Managers optional, when it happens is irrelevant, except for the meaningless 'exceptional circumstances', but when it does, I have explained how it will pan out and why.

I don't know how many people travel Reading to London on the Staines line, but if not very many at all, then irrelevant really?

Having realised I didn't accuse you of some great deliberate conspiracy to short form trains you now seem to be angling for another semantic debate on the different between regular and occasional? You don't need the flexibility to deliver half a train as West Coast prove every day, despite your fixation on the 221 exception to the 390 rule.

But still you seem obsessed with having too much off peak capacity. Earlier you pointed out this is exactly what other TOCs do with idle stock between the peaks. Which is exactly my point - GWR is the outlier giving up precious peak capacity in exchange for trying to squeeze even more trains into an already unmanageable bit of congested railway.

Having suffered years of serious crowding there still doesn't seem to be a plan to deal with it and Crossrail is only going to make it worse opening up more of London to Paddington. I don't see what an extra train for Maidenhead will do there, looks like no plan plus a lot of wishful thinking? Perhaps the crowds won't come, perhaps people will choose to go on slower routes or the lack of housing will stop things getting out of hand. All the probability is for exactly the opposite to happen.

As I have explained 1x6/7 is an off peak formation as 1x10 isn't needed outside London nor outside the peak. Reading-London isn't going back to the early 1970s any time soon. Perhaps I invited a semantic debate there by using the word forever?
 

w1bbl3

Member
Joined
6 Mar 2011
Messages
325
As I have explained 1x6/7 is an off peak formation as 1x10 isn't needed outside London nor outside the peak. Reading-London isn't going back to the early 1970s any time soon. Perhaps I invited a semantic debate there by using the word forever?

But where does the 1x6/7 go in the peak?
As an example when GWR was all HST the 1425 Great Malvern > Paddington formed the 1722 Paddington > Hereford. Logically in world with medium length trains that 6 or 7 cars the forming service would be a medium length train but should this then run out as the peak service the overall seating capacity on the peak service would be significantly reduced vs a fleet consisting of 5 car trains where the diagram could start as 1x5 into London and depart London as 2x5 for example having either joined at Paddington or somewhere en-route on the inbound.

Remember 6/7 car trains are too long to join another 6/7 car train to, so either these also run in the peak to somewhere or another fleet of long trains is needed for the peaks only which isn't particularly sensible from a cost or path availability perspective. Upon a "medium" train arriving at Paddington in the peak you can't just wave a magic wand and make it disappear or sprout additional intermediate coaches. It's either ECS to depot to bring a long train in ECS from depot using up two extra paths or forms a peak outbound service with passengers rammed in like sardines.
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
But where does the 1x6/7 go in the peak?
As an example when GWR was all HST the 1425 Great Malvern > Paddington formed the 1722 Paddington > Hereford. Logically in world with medium length trains that 6 or 7 cars the forming service would be a medium length train but should this then run out as the peak service the overall seating capacity on the peak service would be significantly reduced vs a fleet consisting of 5 car trains where the diagram could start as 1x5 into London and depart London as 2x5 for example having either joined at Paddington or somewhere en-route on the inbound.

Remember 6/7 car trains are too long to join another 6/7 car train to, so either these also run in the peak to somewhere or another fleet of long trains is needed for the peaks only which isn't particularly sensible from a cost or path availability perspective. Upon a "medium" train arriving at Paddington in the peak you can't just wave a magic wand and make it disappear or sprout additional intermediate coaches. It's either ECS to depot to bring a long train in ECS from depot using up two extra paths or forms a peak outbound service with passengers rammed in like sardines.

There will be a lot of diagrams that don't touch London in either peak. The problem with 1x5 cars is that there are lots of outside London peaks where it doesn't work either, as many people correctly pointed out when XC cut their trains from 7 to 4/5.

Absolutely the idea is not to couple anything. Double the cabs, double the kitchens, double the staff. Not such an issue when it is 2x 365 with only a driver of course.

In the peaks in London you need maximum capacity per path and as explained 2x5 is the same capacity as 1x9 and clearly fails that test as 1x10 is the maximum length. 1x10 should have been the core fleet, no doubling of kitchens, no attaching everywhere. No other TOC seems preoccupied with avoiding excess off peak capacity as long as it is doing everything it can to move people in the peak.
 

CC 72100

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2012
Messages
3,777
There will be a lot of diagrams that don't touch London in either peak.
Maybe, but they could touch Bristol/Bath peak, Cardiff peak etc.

Additionally some of the sholder peak trains are actually the busiest, because of people wishing to get out before the peak kicks in or wanting to travel close to the peak but not pay peak fares.

I'm no fan of the 5-car trains but operationally they do make a lot of sense, even if I'd have preferred more 9-cars and fewer 5-cars (say a swing of about 10 in favour of 9-cars).

The 5 cars allow for the introduction of new services (faster Bristol services for example) that wouldn't have been possible with a fleet of 9-car trains that mean less trains, just longer ones.

If there is all this room off-peak, then how best to fill it? If enough people wanted to travel on those services, surely they'd be full HSTs now? But they're not. So you have to go out and create new demand. Newer services are more likely to do so than trains that are just 1 coach longer than those they are replacing.

Some services also don't justify a full 9-car train - with the exception of a few services, I'd allege that the Pad - Cheltenhams are an example. With that going hourly I see nothing to stop the 'extra' one and even a middle of the day one as per current timings being 5-car. I'd also guess that, for leisure travellers, the loadings would be more evened out between Cheltenham - Swindon as people currently favour the direct train.
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
I think ultimately, no one will have a problem with 5 car services if they are used appropriately.
The problem is, right now, because of the current stock and driver situation, we are quite often seeing 5 cars run when they should be 9 or 10 cars. That is a problem and it is obvious that passengers will judge GWR in a negative way when that happens.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,231
The letter sounds clear that an IET will be allowed to go without a Train Manager, I am not seeing that limited to any particular line. That clearly makes Train Managers optional, when it happens is irrelevant, except for the meaningless 'exceptional circumstances', but when it does, I have explained how it will pan out and why.

That letter was a proposal - there has not been any agreement with the unions to change current DOO arrangements and if Aslef does not reach an agreement with GWR on an extension of DOO operation outside the Thames Valley area, then the drivers will simply refuse to take a train out.

So it does not make train mangers optional. And in terms of customer care, I can't see any long-distance TOC wanting to get into the game of running DOO anyway.

But clearly your crystal ball is in full working order, so we'll just have to accept that it shall be DOO, all the time, everywhere.

I don't know how many people travel Reading to London on the Staines line, but if not very many at all, then irrelevant really?

Why is it irrelevant? Your proposition is that passengers at Reading (and I assume Maidenhead and Twyford as well) will all continue to leap on board any and every GWR fast service as a matter of routine (actual routine, as opposed to something that happens occasionally, such as a five-car IET instead of 2x5 - there are currently 78 train formation updates showing on GWR Journeycheck, and the number of five-cars instead of 2x5 is, er, zero...).

As a matter of routine, some passengers from Reading have been getting on a slower service to London, making a number of stops en route, for years. I'm sure your crystal ball will disagree but I think it is entirely reasonable to suppose that some passengers at GWML stations may decide staying put on the same train all the way to the West End or the City beats a transfer at Paddington.

Are you aware that Maidenhead-Liverpool Street, even with the stops on Crossrail, will take 46 minutes, for example?
A GWR fast to Paddington takes 20 or 21 minutes at the moment, which isn't going to change much, and Crossrail's website shows 10 minutes for the transit from Paddington to Liverpool Street. Chuck in some transfer time at Paddington and even if you step straight on to a train at Paddington heading through the tunnel, you might save 10 minutes compared with a direct Crossrail train.

Having realised I didn't accuse you of some great deliberate conspiracy to short form trains you now seem to be angling for another semantic debate on the different between regular and occasional? You don't need the flexibility to deliver half a train as West Coast prove every day, despite your fixation on the 221 exception to the 390 rule.

Since I do not accept your proposition that short-formed GWR IETs are the norm, routine, or any other word you care to try out, I see nothing at all wrong with pointing out that when Virgin have an occasional, non-routine fault on a 221/a set was failed on the depot, etc, then they will cut them out of a formation - just what GWR does with IETs if they have a fault/did not leave the depot, etc.

Rather than making the same assertion over and over, how about you produce a detailed log, actually demonstrating in black and white that short-formed IETs on GWR are a matter of routine?

But still you seem obsessed with having too much off peak capacity. Earlier you pointed out this is exactly what other TOCs do with idle stock between the peaks. Which is exactly my point - GWR is the outlier giving up precious peak capacity in exchange for trying to squeeze even more trains into an already unmanageable bit of congested railway.

I see, so the needs of a couple of hours in the morning and a couple of hours in the evening on a short section of railway trump all other considerations, such as what the trains involved are doing the rest of the day or in places a very long way from the Thames Valley with different needs? And all this to add perhaps four dozen seats per service, which would be a drop in the ocean compared to what is being delivered by way of extra capacity in the Thames Valley one way and another over the next couple of years.

Having suffered years of serious crowding there still doesn't seem to be a plan to deal with it and Crossrail is only going to make it worse opening up more of London to Paddington. I don't see what an extra train for Maidenhead will do there, looks like no plan plus a lot of wishful thinking? Perhaps the crowds won't come, perhaps people will choose to go on slower routes or the lack of housing will stop things getting out of hand. All the probability is for exactly the opposite to happen.

No, obviously getting new IETs with more seats than on the HSTs they replace isn't part of a plan to 'deal with it', nor is having formations up to 12 coaches on GWR suburban services, or Crossrail...

As I have explained 1x6/7 is an off peak formation as 1x10 isn't needed outside London nor outside the peak. Reading-London isn't going back to the early 1970s any time soon. Perhaps I invited a semantic debate there by using the word forever?

I wonder why no one else has thought about having off-peak sets? They would certainly come in handy on many West Coast Pendolino services for large parts of the day, especially the further they get away from London.

Or maybe someone has already thought about having off-peak sets on GWR - and they look something like a five-coach Class 800? Which can also be coupled together to form a 640-seat peak train.

Perhaps you shouldn't make sweeping and inaccurate assertions in the first place.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top