The Guardian ‘tests’ the French rail network

[williamn]

In today’s Guardian:

Train versus plane: with many domestic flights banned in France, we test its rail network

Visionary policy or pipe dream? An 18-day, 3,000km loop from Paris to the Atlantic and Mediterranean and back should tell us

www.theguardian.com

I bought a “one country” Interrail pass for £201 and set off on a circular loop round France by train, to see whether Macron’s policy was visionary policy or a pipe dream that discounted the strain it would put on crumbling public infrastructure. The 18-day route I’d plotted used trains from high-speed TGVs to rickety regional TERs, blending major cities with small towns. Arriving on the Eurostar in Paris, I’d head west towards Nantes, down the Atlantic coast to Bordeaux and seaside resort Soulac-sur-Mer, across the south to Narbonne and Marseille, before heading across country to the ancient volcanic region of Chaîne des Puys, before returning to Paris...

...I had a new respect for the scale and breadth of the French rail network. When I told this to a waiter in a Clermont cafe, he shook his head and told me French trains were “too complicated”, “too old” and “too slow”. When I said they were still far superior to British trains he burst into laughter.

I’m fairly sure that if this report was about the UK, a train so over crowded that someone was almost injured by flying luggage would be the lead and headline. The graffitied train would probably be the main image. No mention of lines closed in recent decades, or the very infrequent service on most rural lines.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The most telling statistic is that only 5,000 of the 200,000 domestic flights have been affected by the 'ban'.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Paris to Nantes in 4 hours 16 minutes! 2 hours 16 minutes more like!

 

[yorksrob]

For all of the ricketyness of the French system, the £200 countrywide pass seems like very good value.

My super off-peak to Cornwall from Yorkshire costs more than that.

 

[DeverseSam]

Paris to Nantes in 4 hours 16 minutes! 2 hours 16 minutes more like!

And this is important given that the flying ban does affect Paris Nantes, which the journalist seemed to missed

For all of the ricketyness of the French system, the £200 countrywide pass seems like very good value.

My super off-peak to Cornwall from Yorkshire costs more than that.

plus the supplements which weren’t mentioned

 

[yorksrob]

[QUOTE="DeverseSam, post: 6392955,

plus the supplements which weren’t mentioned
[/QUOTE]

I didn't mention the "supplement" I had to pay to go around the lengthy rail replacement bus service this year !

 

[Bletchleyite]

For all of the ricketyness of the French system, the £200 countrywide pass seems like very good value.

You can get one for the UK too, like the French one it's only available to non residents. Indeed the UK one is better value as you don't need to pay supplements.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For all of the ricketyness of the French system, the £200 countrywide pass seems like very good value.

It was a one-country Interrail pass, which is good value- though the seat reservation fees on TGV less so. But you can’t buy it if you live in France.

You can get a one-country Interrail pass for the UK which is similarly excellent value. You just can’t buy it if you live in the UK.

Paris to Nantes in 4 hours 16 minutes! 2 hours 16 minutes more like!

It wouldn’t be the Guardian without a typo or two.

The “ban” was performative, nothing more; it also doesn’t apply to people connecting off long-haul. So there are still flights from Nantes and Lyon to Paris.

 

[yorksrob]

You can get one for the UK too, like the French one it's only available to non residents. Indeed the UK one is better value as you don't need to pay supplements.

I take it back, a ticket that's only available to non-residents is sod-all use to residents.

It was a one-country Interrail pass, which is good value- though the seat reservation fees on TGV less so. But you can’t buy it if you live in France.

You can get a one-country Interrail pass for the UK which is similarly excellent value. You just can’t buy it if you live in the UK.

As above.

 

[WessexEclectic]

The “ban” was performative, nothing more; it also doesn’t apply to people connecting off long-haul.

Plus ça change...

 

[RT4038]

I take it back, a ticket that's only available to non-residents is sod-all use to residents.

This is quite true!

 

[YorkshireBear]

There is also rose tinted glasses on these sorts of articles about foreign railways. I think a lot of us have them when we visit too. It seems only Germany has managed to shatter those rose tinted glasses!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There is also rose tinted glasses on these sorts of articles about foreign railways. I think a lot of us have them when we visit too. It seems only Germany has managed to shatter those rose tinted glasses!

That depends on the wearer! Given my visits to France were all about avoiding TGVs I quickly came to understand what a mixed bag the French system really is. DB in the 1990s was really good and it's sad that things have deteriorated so much. While I will likely go to my grave praising the Swiss network as the very best of all a number of smaller countries are examples of how good a rail network can be without being lavish ie Belgium, Denmark and the Netherlands.

 

[Peterthegreat]

That depends on the wearer! Given my visits to France were all about avoiding TGVs I quickly came to understand what a mixed bag the French system really is. DB in the 1990s was really good and it's sad that things have deteriorated so much. While I will likely go to my grave praising the Swiss network as the very best of all a number of smaller countries are examples of how good a rail network can be without being lavish ie Belgium, Denmark and the Netherlands.

None of Belgium, Denmark or the Netherlands are particularly good these days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

None of Belgium, Denmark or the Netherlands are particularly good these days.

I've never used DSB, but I wouldn't say SNCB/NMBS or NS were terrible, they're just basic. Fairly comparable with something like Northern if it had some more money spent on it.

SBB is probably the king of railways, but even that isn't perfect.

 

[DanielB]

I wouldn't say SNCB/NMBS or NS were terrible, they're just basic.

NS is receiving loads of criticism lately for their incredibly filthy trains, in that respect they are without doubt the worst in Europe.
They are complaining themselves that passengers are not returning post Covid, but don't appear to realise that they are scaring them off by offering lack of cleaniness and comfort.

For example a customer mailing stating that more capacity is offered now the holidays are over resulted in loads of criticism from commuters standing in way too short trains. And the shortage of drivers and guards may have been resolved, but now passengers have to deal with Sprinter trains on Intercity services due to a shortage of IC stock caused by lack of staff at the workshops and ICNG having severe teething problems.

 

[rg177]

I've never used DSB, but I wouldn't say SNCB/NMBS or NS were terrible, they're just basic. Fairly comparable with something like Northern if it had some more money spent on it.

SBB is probably the king of railways, but even that isn't perfect.

DSB is fine. Reliability is largely good, but connections can be extremely poor (we're talking journeys like Aarhus to Esbjerg or Hamburg, where the connection at Fredericia was literally zero minutes or two hours on a Sunday morning a few months back).

Copenhagen itself is just a bit congested. But I found the trains (apart from the disgraced IC2 and IC4) to be extremely comfortable, albeit very very busy.

Back on topic, France is a nightmare for regional trips. Staff are variable - but I've usually found them to be helpful when I've needed it. I recall one last year practically dragging me down the train and telling someone to shift their bag so i could sit down, when she saw I was in a tip-up seat by the doors. That was a very busy TER service on a Saturday morning from Paris Est - I can't remember the destination but I bailed in Châlons-en-Champagne.

The problem is the things like random bustitution and connections that don't work. Of course, with a nudge, there are some success stories. For example, the Léman Express network that's gone beyond Geneva to the likes of Annecy and Evian-les-Bains, in co-operation with SBB.

 

[Austriantrain]

Back on topic, France is a nightmare for regional trips.

Not only regional. Most of everything that does not involve Paris is really poor, including between major cities as well as local rail transport in and around these cities.

In my personal hierarchy of European railways, the French are close to the bottom… it’s just hidden by their technical prowess.

DB on the other hand will be very fine again, once they have dealt with their maintenance and investment backlog - unfortunately a consequence of wrong economic decisions over two decades (and unfortunately that is a risk elsewhere, including the UK - which I personally consider more on the upper end of the scale).

SBB is probably the king of railways, but even that isn't perfect.

Perfection is impossible I would consider them on the top in almost everything relevant, except train comfort (which is not that relevant considering how short most journeys are). Prices are high, but adequate to their income level, especially since most Swiss have seasons anyway.

However, their network is also at a risk of collapse, for the right reasons - they are so successful in attracting passengers - but with undesirable results.

 

[duesselmartin]

That SBB problem caused by success is also DBs problem. More traffic and passengers then ever without the infrastructure.
As to France, those regional lines that survived only have a handful of trains left. Nothing that teases you out of your car.

The UK has a good service from ny twice yearly experience. The only grievance being the seats and the noise in the GWR IET. No Fun going to Cornwall in them.

 

[williamn]

I’ve just been planning a trip between Amiens and Rouen, two not inconsiderable cities, and there are NO trains between about 7am and 5pm. Pretty shocking.

 

[PTR 444]

I’ve just been planning a trip between Amiens and Rouen, two not inconsiderable cities, and there are NO trains between about 7am and 5pm. Pretty shocking.

Especially shocking considering that they are only 70 miles apart and have a direct rail line between them

 

[Bartsimho]

I’ve just been planning a trip between Amiens and Rouen, two not inconsiderable cities, and there are NO trains between about 7am and 5pm. Pretty shocking.

You'd think they would run one every hour and price it as an avoiding Paris route for all of Pas de Calais, Western Belgium and the Netherlands. I guess you have to make you flashy TGV make money somehow.

Surprised Sotteville Station doesn't link to Rouen's Trams where they could get better workings and run an Amiens-Rouen-Caen-Cherbourg route with decent through loadings as France's busses are a joke as it's a bunch at Morning Peak, 1 at Midday and a bunch in the Evening Peak and nothing else.

You can get one for the UK too, like the French one it's only available to non residents. Indeed the UK one is better value as you don't need to pay supplements.

I take it back, a ticket that's only available to non-residents is sod-all use to residents.



As above.

This is quite true!

I think I've found something which would work in the UK but it has some very specific restrictions on certain companies: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tickets-railcards-offers/promotions/all-line-rover-7-days/
Priced similar with a Railcard as well but no weekday main commuter stations before 10am https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tickets-railcards-offers/promotions/all-line-rover-7-days/
There's also one for 14 days but that is the total extent. I wonder if they will promote it more and remove restrictions with the way fares are down from pre-covid but leisure travel is increased

 

[yorksrob]

I think I've found something which would work in the UK but it has some very specific restrictions on certain companies: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tickets-railcards-offers/promotions/all-line-rover-7-days/
Priced similar with a Railcard as well but no weekday main commuter stations before 10am https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tickets-railcards-offers/promotions/all-line-rover-7-days/
There's also one for 14 days but that is the total extent. I wonder if they will promote it more and remove restrictions with the way fares are down from pre-covid but leisure travel is increased

Unfortunately £571 for a week's travel isn't going to be a gamechanger for rail travel. Something like the Bahncard would do a lot better at encouraging rail travel.

 

[Austriantrain]

That SBB problem caused by success is also DBs problem. More traffic and passengers then ever without the infrastructure.

It’s not that the Swiss don’t invest in infrastructure. Quite to the contrary, they do it more than almost anyone else. The problem is even so they cannot keep up with demand.

 

[Taunton]

France is extraordinarily variable. The TGV is tremendous - if you are going to/from Paris. In inner (not outer) Paris itself, the Metro also serves things well. Elsewhere trains are random, main lines not TGV'd still showing the old tendency of one morning and one evening substantial express, and if that's not sufficient a relief on busy days running 10 minutes behind. Local services, setting aside a few useful outliers, have dropped way off. Not only trains, bus services, outside Paris, have fallen away to trivia. The French nationalised their system in 1938 and closed half of it the same day. Writer Bryan Morgan wrote about it in these terms in the 1950s (not the TGV of course) and it's only got more pronounced.

Regarding Switzerland, some aspects still surprise. The Lucerne to Engelberg line came over as a typical one to an isolated Mountaintop town, but when I went there was a rail replacement bus that week, which not only used a very adequate main road throughout, but bettered the train times.

 

[Myb]

I’ve just been planning a trip between Amiens and Rouen, two not inconsiderable cities, and there are NO trains between about 7am and 5pm. Pretty shocking.

To be fair the line is currently closed between the peaks for engineering works, outside this period there is a mid-day train running.

 

[williamn]

To be fair the line is currently closed between the peaks for engineering works, outside this period there is a mid-day train running.

That's good to know. Still, 3 trains between 7am and 5pm is still not exactly a great service! I'm also finding the Rouen-Dieppe service pretty limited too.

 

[stuu]

That's good to know. Still, 3 trains between 7am and 5pm is still not exactly a great service! I'm also finding the Rouen-Dieppe service pretty limited too.

That's not at all unusual for France. The frequencies are far lower than in the UK or elsewhere in Northern Europe. That is improving a bit now the regions are involved, but there's a long way to go

 

[Austriantrain]

That's not at all unusual for France. The frequencies are far lower than in the UK or elsewhere in Northern Europe. That is improving a bit now the regions are involved, but there's a long way to go

And it’s notoriously bad when crossing the region‘s borders, resulting in very bad service between even major cities.

Even the TGV is not exempted: SNCF has continuously reduced the number of interregional TGVs in the last years.

 

[peteb]

France has major punctuality issues and cancellations are common. For example Auch to Nimes this evening. Uses a route from The Guardian article. "Last" intercity from Bordeaux to Nimes cancelled, last but one an hour late, not yet in Toulouse and my guess is full and standing with those displaced from the "last" train...ho hum!

Having said that the TER services today have been excellent and the bi mode stock is very nice in this 35c heat.