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The Labour Party under Keir Starmer

Shrop

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Mine too. I know money is tight but surely an increase on fuel duty has to be on the cards.
Consider that fuel is cheaper than it was two years ago, and yet almost everything else is a lot more expensive. So yes, a price hike ought to be on the cards especially given how much debt the new Govt claims to be in, but you can be certain that the press would go hysterical about it with reporters doing everything they can to cause panic buying! :rolleyes:
 
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RailUK Forums

edwin_m

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Not a great start. My interest is particularly in transport, to which end I would ask where is their interest in roads and railways? Are they doing much towards mitigating Sunaks' damage to HS2? Are they doing anything towards tackling that huge cause of road accidents, ie driving too close to the vehicle in front? After all the technology isn't hard these days, and Government keeps saying they're desperate for money, which they could raise through fines whilst simultaneously saving lives and creating employment. Oh, and there's always something to be said for repeat driving tests every 10 years, after all most other things which require qualifications are subject to regular re-testing, and drivers kill far more often than people in most other professions do. Any arguments with this?
I believe they have stopped any land sale of the HS2 alignment. Some kind of coherent plan probably needs to emerge from the mayors before they can do any more on high speed rail. At present Burnham's underground Piccadilly is likely to be a major stumbling point, postponing delivery of anything useful by at least five years.

Repeat driving tests might be a good idea - I don't know if there is any research on their benefit, as the problem might be more things like fatigue, drugs etc or with people who've only recently passed anyway. If they do that however, they will need to sort out availability of a lot more driving tests, which still haven't cleared the pandemic backlog.
 

Blindtraveler

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IMO they have just signed their own funeral plan today with the winter fuel payments situation, which will doubtless cost them more to means test than it would just to have given it out. I think a legal challenge will probably follow pretty quickly and the decision May yet be reversed
 

Yew

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Consider that fuel is cheaper than it was two years ago, and yet almost everything else is a lot more expensive. So yes, a price hike ought to be on the cards especially given how much debt the new Govt claims to be in, but you can be certain that the press would go hysterical about it with reporters doing everything they can to cause panic buying! :rolleyes:
That was an unusually high period of fuel prices, It'd probably be more reasonable to take the average.
 

takno

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IMO they have just signed their own funeral plan today with the winter fuel payments situation, which will doubtless cost them more to means test than it would just to have given it out. I think a legal challenge will probably follow pretty quickly and the decision May yet be reversed
What basis do you think there is for a legal challenge?
 

Shrop

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That was an unusually high period of fuel prices, It'd probably be more reasonable to take the average.
Fuel prices in comparison with the retail price index are now the lowest they've been since the year 2000. Or, since you don't like me citing 2 years ago, let's try going back 10 years. In 2023 the price of petrol was exactly the same as it was in 2013. In the same 10 year period, the retail price index rose by 47%.

Putting this another way, if petrol prices had risen by the same amount as the retail price index over the last 10 years, a litre of fuel would have been 205.1p per litre in 2023. Or 213.9p per litre now. This wouldn't have been with any unusual fuel tax levy, it would simply have been keeping up with inflation.
 

brad465

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Mine too. I know money is tight but surely an increase on fuel duty has to be on the cards.
Consider that fuel is cheaper than it was two years ago, and yet almost everything else is a lot more expensive. So yes, a price hike ought to be on the cards especially given how much debt the new Govt claims to be in, but you can be certain that the press would go hysterical about it with reporters doing everything they can to cause panic buying! :rolleyes:
Fuel duty was frozen for about a decade then a 5p cut made which did nothing good. This tax situation is now a Pandora's box: keep it where it is and have budget shortfalls worsen, or raise it and face a backlash, as well as raising inflation. I think they should at least reverse the 5p cut Sunak made, but going further will be too far.
 

zero

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Repeat driving tests might be a good idea - I don't know if there is any research on their benefit, as the problem might be more things like fatigue, drugs etc or with people who've only recently passed anyway. If they do that however, they will need to sort out availability of a lot more driving tests, which still haven't cleared the pandemic backlog.

If all drivers currently pass their test on their first attempt at age 20, and the proposal is to retest them at 30, 40, 50 and 60, the number of tests (and examiners) would need to increase five-fold.

I'm not sure whether needing more attempts to pass the first time would correlate to needing more attempts to pass a retest.
 

MP33

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Seeing the Policy of releasing inmates early from Prison and the implications for aftercare. I was reminded of a conversation in Law and Order USA discussing whether there should be objections raised to Parole, when the time comes around.

A Police Officer suggested that they just serve the time given. A District Attorney, responded with the comment that they would be unsupervised. The Police Officer gave the opinion, that what happens anyway.
 

Shrop

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If all drivers currently pass their test on their first attempt at age 20, and the proposal is to retest them at 30, 40, 50 and 60, the number of tests (and examiners) would need to increase five-fold.
So there would be a big rise in jobs for driving instructors and examiners, would that be a bad thing? And a significant focus on road safety, not a bad thing either, I mean how many of us complain about the bad driving and parking of others? At present 35 people in the UK will be dead this time next week due to bad driving, and many hundreds more will be hospitalised with life changing injuries, and none of these people yet know who they are. Think about this. Then there is the potential to reduce insurance premiums if safety improves. All worth thought.
 

Blindtraveler

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Given that we have enormous backlogs in waiting times for tests and lessons at the moment, are we not making a rod for our own back by increasing it? We could perhaps approach it a different way. And open, learn or similar e-learning platform refresher course on green cross code rules of the road and various other things every decade or half decade. And if you fail this then perhaps then it translates into a couple of sessions with a government approved driving instructor to make sure that you're not a total liability. I can also see the conspiracy theorists claiming that labour will simply use this process to disqualify drivers and therefore continue their war on motorists. I'm not saying this is true but just preempting what the gutter press in particular may say
 

Shrop

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Given that we have enormous backlogs in waiting times for tests and lessons at the moment, are we not making a rod for our own back by increasing it? We could perhaps approach it a different way. And open, learn or similar e-learning platform refresher course on green cross code rules of the road and various other things every decade or half decade. And if you fail this then perhaps then it translates into a couple of sessions with a government approved driving instructor to make sure that you're not a total liability. I can also see the conspiracy theorists claiming that labour will simply use this process to disqualify drivers and therefore continue their war on motorists. I'm not saying this is true but just preempting what the gutter press in particular may say
There has NEVER been a war motorists (by any Govt) all there has ever been is scandalmongering and paranoid journalists trying to create headlines, including deliberately causing panic buying for fuel purely so that they can then report on it. Motorists are generally treated more leniently than people in any other walk of life, in comparison with the responsibilities they carry, and the deaths and injuries they cause. The only unreasonable hardship they suffer is being penalised for very small margins of speed limit excesses, but that's a different matter.
 

edwin_m

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I haven't heard of Labour proposing people face periodic driving tests. Have I missed some announcement or is it just speculation that they might?
 

Shrop

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I haven't heard of Labour proposing people face periodic driving tests. Have I missed some announcement or is it just speculation that they might?
You haven't missed anything. Labour aren't proposing anything to do with the driving test, they're just not interested. Just like the Tories, they're all too scared to address transport matters seriously.
 

Tetchytyke

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MO they have just signed their own funeral plan today with the winter fuel payments situation, which will doubtless cost them more to means test than it would just to have given it out.

They've tied it to the Pension Credit means test for a reason. The means test has already been carried out so there's no extra cost involved.

As for whether the winter fuel allowance should be means-tested, I don't see why it shouldn't be means-tested.

Everyone talks about pensioners being poor, but a study by the Intergenerational Foundation shows that there are 3,137,000 pensioners living in households where their total assets exceed £1,000,000. 53% of pensioners living in households where their assets exceed £500,000.

In short and simple terms, 27% of pensioners are millionaires.


3,137,000 people over the age of 65 live in millionaire households - where the household wealth is over £1,000,000
• The number of older people living in millionaire households has nearly quadrupled over the last 10 years
• The intergenerational wealth divide has increased sharply
• Older couple households are, on average, more than twice as wealthy as single people
• Since 2010 a typical (median) older couple has seen their wealth increase from under £400,000 to over £700,000
• 53% of individuals over 65 now live in households with over £500,000 in assets
• These figures are based on the Government’s Wealth and Assets Survey 2018-2020, so it is certain that older people’s wealth will now be significantly greater than the numbers above.

Obviously this wealth will mostly be tied up in property and property prices will account for the rise of pensioner millionaires. But the idea that anyone living in a house worth a million quid is poor is utterly ridiculous and, if they are short on cash, perhaps they should do what we all have to do and realise their assets by downsizing.
 

SteveHFC

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What’s everybody’s thought on Labours first few weeks or months in office?
Answering this before reading anyone else's replies. So far I think they've done ok but can we really judge after just two months? Surely it is better to judge in two or three years time once we (and they) have had a chance to see the effects of the decisions they are making? I think deep down we all knew they were going to have to make some unpopular decisions to repair the mess they've inherited.

As for the apparent budget deficit - I'm more inclined to believe Labour than the Conservatives, given the latter's record on telling the truth in recent years.

Unless something goes completely pear-shaped for them, I'm inclined not to make a judgement until the summer of 2026 at the earliest.
 

Blindtraveler

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Likewise answering this before reading anything else, for people like me who do work for companies with government subcontracts it's been a summer of total carnage and ever-shifting quicksand whilst they strive to rip up many contracts led by the previous government. Not because they were especially bad in any particular way, but more out of political spite than anything else,
The knee-jerk reaction on winter fuel payments has also been a very bad move and will lose them a lot of the support that they might have gained from people who genuinely voted for change or something different, going out and victimising or attacking a particular group or groups of people was so much the last government and they themselves criticised it that I don't see how they can come back from this, especially with a 10% price hike hurtling towards us faster than the proverbial Express train. The fact that it's probably in reality going to cost more to means test it than it would have done to simply give it out or put in place a more straightforward system where people could choose to opt out as many would have done

I don't agree with the inflation busting pay rises that they've handed out all over the place, yes, NHS staff did need to be paid more but done in such a hurry that I wonder if they actually know where the money is coming from and if the winter fuel payment cut is directly paying for some or all of it then it's smacks to me of robbing Peter to pay. Paul. Some of there housing policies have made me cross whilst others have made me curious. As a whole have a reputation for not caring about social housing and its tenants, but that messaging may be changing now and the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. So ask me again in a year or so
 

Kite159

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In short and simple terms, 27% of pensioners are millionaires.
They might be Millionaires solely on 'paper' due to owning a house which has skyrocketed in value since they purchased it, but still be struggling day to day*. After-all having a house valued at £1,000,000 is different than having 1 million in the bank account or in other liquid assets.

(*to such a point they can't even afford to sell up owing to modern paperwork requirements for older housing stock, or even if they sold out, they will still need somewhere to live and depending on the location that house valued at 1 million pounds is located, they might not even get a million for it, if it's large/old.

But hey it's fun to bash OAPs, as they don't tend to vote labour they are free game to Two Tier Starmer to help raise money to fund apprentice doctors getting 20+% pay rises.
 

Shrop

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They might be Millionaires solely on 'paper' due to owning a house which has skyrocketed in value since they purchased it, but still be struggling day to day*. After-all having a house valued at £1,000,000 is different than having 1 million in the bank account or in other liquid assets.
Next you'll be saying that those with a house worth £1,000,000 could be classed as poor! I feel sure that many of those who have a house worth less than a quarter of that, who also have little or no savings and an income of, say, just £14,000 per year, would be absolutely delighted to swap with them, and more than happy to take on the "burden" of having to sell up and downsize! :rolleyes:
 

oldman

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apprentice doctors.
People who have spent years of study and racked up debts in the process, and are now actually treating sick patients, often with limited supervision, and you call them apprentices.

I suspect owners of million-pound houses with tiny incomes and no financial assets are few and far between, and there is such a thing as equity release. Of course this kind of 'age concern' is really about protecting the offspring's inheritance.
 

Falcon1200

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Would a fairer way of means testing the Winter Fuel Allowance have been subjecting it to income tax? So that (stating the obvious) those with higher incomes pay more, and those just above the benefits threshold are not abandoned to freeze.

Starmer has repeatedly said times are hard and therefore tough decisions must be taken, yet so far he has done the exact opposite! VAT on school fees and penalising 'rich' pensioners, easy when non-Labour voters are mostly affected, yet large pay settlements without conditions handed to others (and what will the effect of those be in pay negotiations for other groups?)
 

43096

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But hey it's fun to bash OAPs, as they don't tend to vote labour they are free game to Two Tier Starmer to help raise money to fund apprentice doctors getting 20+% pay rises.
Or as The Telegraph saw it:
1726079697257.jpeg
[Cartoon of Robin Hood being told “Surprisingly, Robin, nobody likes your plan to steal from pensioners to give to train drivers”]
 

brad465

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But hey it's fun to bash OAPs, as they don't tend to vote labour they are free game to Two Tier Starmer to help raise money to fund apprentice doctors getting 20+% pay rises.
We could always continue to import doctors from the rest of the world while our own graduates emigrate to Australia for better income, to the detriment of both ourselves (receiving no return for the costs of training doctors at home) and the countries of origin for migrant doctors (who lose valuable workers). I do wonder how many complain about our immigration policy and big pay rises to these workers, failing to realise the correlation.
 

Kite159

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We could always continue to import doctors from the rest of the world while our own graduates emigrate to Australia for better income, to the detriment of both ourselves (receiving no return for the costs of training doctors at home) and the countries of origin for migrant doctors (who lose valuable workers). I do wonder how many complain about our immigration policy and big pay rises to these workers, failing to realise the correlation.
Then put contracts on those doctors that if they choose to leave within so many years after training, they will be forced to pay back a percentage of the training cost. Similar to other industries when they invest in staff. If someone wants to emigrate to a sunnier climate, then even paying them £100,000 a year won't stop them leaving.

Next you'll be saying that those with a house worth £1,000,000 could be classed as poor! I feel sure that many of those who have a house worth less than a quarter of that, who also have little or no savings and an income of, say, just £14,000 per year, would be absolutely delighted to swap with them, and more than happy to take on the "burden" of having to sell up and downsize! :rolleyes:

Houses are not liquid assets, it might be worth that sort of money on the paper of an estate agency. Are you the sort of person who expects OAPs to simply sell up their family home which they might have lived in for multiple years with lots of memories to be shipped to a soulless sheltered housing complex so that "million pound" house can be attempted to be sold along with the memories lost? (And hence increasing the likelihood of dementia)
 

YorkRailFan

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Chairs of Committees have been elected:
NEW: The results of the select committee chair elections

- Business: Liam Byrne / @liambyrnemp

- Defence: Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi / @TanDhesi

- Education: Helen Hayes / @helenhayes_

- Energy: Bill Esterson / @Bill_Esterson

- Environment: Toby Perkins / @tobyperkinsmp

- Foreign Affairs: Emily Thornberry /
@EmilyThornberry

- Home Affairs: Dame Karen Bradley

- Housing: Florence Eschalomi / @FloEshalomi

- International Development: Sarah Champion / @SarahChampionMP

- Justice: Andy Slaughter / @hammersmithandy

- Procedure: Cat Smith /
@CatSmithMP

- Public Accounts: Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown /
@Clifton_BrownG

- Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs: Simon Hoare / @Simon4NDorset

- Science & Tech: Chi Onwurah / @ChiOnwurah

- Standards: Alberto Costa / @AlbertoCostaMP

- Transport: Ruth Cadbury / @RuthCadbury

- Women and equalities: Sarah Owen /
@SarahOwen_

- Work and pensions: Debbie Abrahams / @Debbie_abrahams

I was surprised that Emily Thornberry wasn't in the Cabinet so I'm not surprised to see her elected as Chair of a Committee, Foreign Affairs in this case.
 

brad465

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Then put contracts on those doctors that if they choose to leave within so many years after training, they will be forced to pay back a percentage of the training cost. Similar to other industries when they invest in staff. If someone wants to emigrate to a sunnier climate, then even paying them £100,000 a year won't stop them leaving.
Or maybe we could do both? There are plenty of professions which pay better than doctors, nurses, etc., despite arguably being of lesser importance to society, and these workers will put the extra money back into the economy at the level of salary we're talking about so it's not a waste. We have 100k vacancies in healthcare in the UK which has negative implications across the whole of society. Increasing pay is one part of the solution, better incentives to stay in the UK is another, and their will be others on top, there is no silver bullet and putting down the profession is definitely not the answer.
 

GRALISTAIR

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So Ruth Cadbury is probably the key one as far as this forum is concerned.

Wikipedia (out of date I see!) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Cadbury

Ruth Margaret Cadbury (born 14 May 1959) is a British Labour politician who has been the Member of Parliament (MP) for Brentford and Isleworth since 2015. She was Shadow Minister for Prisons, Parole and Probation from 2023 until 2024. A former planning consultant, Cadbury previously served on the opposition front bench as Shadow Minister for Housing from 2016 to 2017, Shadow Minister for Planning in 2021 and Shadow Minister for International Trade from 2021 to 2023
 

Shrop

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Houses are not liquid assets, it might be worth that sort of money on the paper of an estate agency. Are you the sort of person who expects OAPs to simply sell up their family home which they might have lived in for multiple years with lots of memories to be shipped to a soulless sheltered housing complex so that "million pound" house can be attempted to be sold along with the memories lost? (And hence increasing the likelihood of dementia)
I'm not sure why you would say this. Equity release schemes are widely available which allow elderly people to stay their property, while releasing funds, up to half the value of the property if necessary. So if the house is worth £1m, and £500,000 could be released, would the additional £250 or so really be that important to them? It would surely be fairer to give this to those on low incomes with small houses who genuinely are struggling, but who are just above the "threshold". The problem with this Govt (since that's what this thread is about), is that they don't appear capable of dealing with this fairly.
 

Purple Train

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Answering this before reading anyone else's replies. So far I think they've done ok but can we really judge after just two months? Surely it is better to judge in two or three years time once we (and they) have had a chance to see the effects of the decisions they are making? I think deep down we all knew they were going to have to make some unpopular decisions to repair the mess they've inherited.

As for the apparent budget deficit - I'm more inclined to believe Labour than the Conservatives, given the latter's record on telling the truth in recent years.

Unless something goes completely pear-shaped for them, I'm inclined not to make a judgement until the summer of 2026 at the earliest.
Well said indeed. After at least five years, if not more, of constant, populist short-termism, part of me is inclined to believe that not many people are well-acquainted with the idea of short-term pain for long-term gain. At least Starmer does seem to be governing with the next five years in mind, rather than the next five days' worth of opinion polls. I think that's definitely a benefit of having someone in charge who isn't terribly political - he doesn't seem to be constantly fussing about public opinion now that he's in Number 10. Obviously, there is a point at which such insulation becomes a bad thing, but this definitely isn't one of them. The guts to make unpopular decisions for long-term benefit - and I'm not sure anyone can argue that trying to eliminate a fiscal black hole isn't a long-term benefit - is the very embodiment of "country before party". To misquote The Princess Bride: life is pain - anyone who says differently is trying to win the next election.
 

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