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The Labour Party under Keir Starmer

Kite159

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I'm not sure why you would say this. Equity release schemes are widely available which allow elderly people to stay their property, while releasing funds, up to half the value of the property if necessary. So if the house is worth £1m, and £500,000 could be released, would the additional £250 or so really be that important to them? It would surely be fairer to give this to those on low incomes with small houses who genuinely are struggling, but who are just above the "threshold". The problem with this Govt (since that's what this thread is about), is that they don't appear capable of dealing with this fairly.
Ah the excellent value for money Equity Release companies, laying in wait to pounce when the OAP doesn't pay back the money or passes away.

Assuming the OAP understands what the risks are when they take out such a product. What next, suggesting they can take out a loan to top up their state pension as they are just over the threshold for pension credit due to having a tiny private pension.
 
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RailUK Forums

Shrop

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Anyone watching the National Television Awards right now? Jo Hamilton (one of the more prominent sub-postmasters) said on stage that she saw the new Minister last week and "Nothing has changed", with hundreds of sub-postmasters still waiting for any repayments of what was stolen from them. No real progress, and the perpetrators who caused all of this harm and injustice many years ago are still at large. This doesn't look good on the new Government. okay, they can't catch up on this overnight, but you might hope they could make some positive difference.
 

Harpo

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Jo Hamilton (one of the more prominent sub-postmasters) said ………… the perpetrators who caused all of this harm and injustice many years ago are still at large.
I wonder if this will follow the pattern of Grenfell? Conclude the inquiry, then a year or two to prepare prosecutions?
 

RT4038

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I wonder if this will follow the pattern of Grenfell? Conclude the inquiry, then a year or two to prepare prosecutions?
You may well be right (but I am not holding my breath!), but prosecution of the perpetrators has nothing to do with payment of compensation to the sub-postmasters wrongly convicted, bankrupted etc
 

Tetchytyke

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After-all having a house valued at £1,000,000 is different than having 1 million in the bank account or in other liquid assets.
I quite agree, and specifically highlighted that in my post.

But the rest of the world has to sell up and realise assets if we’re living in a house we can’t afford to run.

I suspect owners of million-pound houses with tiny incomes and no financial assets are few and far between
So do I. Which is why I have absolutely no objection with putting a means test on the winter fuel allowance.

It’s interesting that the OAPs and Tory MPs who are outraged now weren’t outraged when the Tories put a similar means test on child benefit (NB I didn’t disagree with that decision either).
 
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Magdalia

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Obviously this wealth will mostly be tied up in property and property prices will account for the rise of pensioner millionaires.
I don't agree.

I have been digging to try to find the number of UK residential properties valued at more than £1 million. There are various estimates, in the range 600000-800000, with almost all of the >£1miilion properties in London and the South East. Lots of those will be owned by people yet to reach state pension age.

Most high net worth pensioners will have their assets in a reasonably well balanced portfolio of their main residential property, their pension, and in other financial assets. The number where almost all of the money is tied up in the main residential property will be small.

One aspect of this that is nearly always overlooked is the impact of Personal Equity Plans (PEPs), Tax Exempt Special Savings Accounts (TESSAs) and Individual Savings Accounts (ISAs). Lots of pensioners have built up big portfolios of financial assets using these tax breaks. There is an estimate that there are already more than 4000 ISA millionaires who have £1 million of assets in ISAs alone. Almost all of them are over state pension age, because most of the money was made through capital growth before the 2008 financial crisis. Lots of pensioners have ISA savings worth £ hundreds of thousands.

There is one group of people who could fit into the asset rich but cash poor scenario. That's widows, and, in particular, widows who have become sole owners of the family home, on the death of their partner, and have just enough pension income to disqualify them from pension credit. As has already been mentioned, they have options of downsizing or equity release. And anyone who has a mother in such a position, and who will inherit the property eventually, has a responsibility to help.
 

RT4038

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I quite agree, and specifically highlighted that in my post.

But the rest of the world has to sell up and realise assets if we’re living in a house we can’t afford to run.
But if you can't afford to run the house which you have lived in for many years because of Government fiscal action based on the nominal value of such house, then that is a different matter. That does not happen to 'the rest of the world'. Downsizing will mean a disruptive move, and likely move to a different area away from friends and the area you know. I would not trust Equity Release, and I would not relish owing some financial institution at that time of life either.
 

Tetchytyke

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I don't agree.

I have been digging to try to find the number of UK residential properties valued at more than £1 million. There are various estimates, in the range 600000-800000, with almost all of the >£1miilion properties in London and the South East. Lots of those will be owned by people yet to reach state pension age.
It’ll be a mixture of things, including the various savings/pensions regimes that you’ve included in your post.

What made me think property has a significant impact is because the number of HNW OAPs has quadrupled in such a short period of time. But, of course, not all property is owned as the family home- buy to let investment really took off in the last 20 years as an alternative to very low returns in more traditional investment portfolios.

I suppose I’m really just challenging the idea that all the OAPs are little old ladies freezing to death in a cottage and Big Bad Kier has stolen their only lifeline. The truth is a significant proportion of OAPs are really very comfortable and simply don’t need the money.
 

westv

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But if you can't afford to run the house which you have lived in for many years because of Government fiscal action based on the nominal value of such house, then that is a different matter. That does not happen to 'the rest of the world'. Downsizing will mean a disruptive move, and likely move to a different area away from friends and the area you know. I would not trust Equity Release, and I would not relish owing some financial institution at that time of life either.
I'm not suggesting it for anybody but ER is far more regulated today than years ago and, given the right circumstances, is a valid means to extract some equity from a home.
 

Tetchytyke

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All this talk of “inflation busting pay rises” being bad is also very interesting.

Does this distaste for “inflation busting pay rises” extend to the inflation-busting rise in the state pension?

If not, why not.

It’s also worth noting that the state will get up to 50% of any pay rise for public sector workers straight back in employee tax/NI anyway…

But if you can't afford to run the house which you have lived in for many years because of Government fiscal action based on the nominal value of such house, then that is a different matter. That does not happen to 'the rest of the world'. Downsizing will mean a disruptive move, and likely move to a different area away from friends and the area you know.
If £300- £6 a week- is make or break then you can’t afford your house anyway.

If I reach the stage where I can’t afford to run my home then I will be forced to sell it. And I’ll be forced to move. And I’ll very likely be forced to move to a cheaper area, with the upheaval (schools, etc) that that entails. That’s life. It sucks, but there we are.

Of course the real value of the asset is for the children who stand to inherit it- perhaps they should do more to make sure granny isn’t freezing to death.

As for equity release, it’s a regulated sector and the pricing is transparent. Interest is charged on the amount released- it’s a mortgage after all- and payment is taken when you die. The children lose their inheritance, but you get to stay in your home.

It’s certainly not for everyone but if you don’t want to sell up and move it’s an option.
 
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RT4038

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If I reach the stage where I can’t afford to run my home then I will be forced to sell it. And I’ll be forced to move. And I’ll very likely be forced to move to a cheaper area, with the upheaval (schools, etc) that that entails. That’s life. It sucks, but there we are.
As I said, this is fine in the normal way of life. It is not fine if you can't afford to run the house which you have lived in for many years because of Government fiscal action based on the nominal value of such a house.

Of course the real value of the asset is for the children who stand to inherit it- perhaps they should do more to make sure granny isn’t freezing to death.
Surely the best way to deal with that is with inheritance tax, (on the basis that any inheritance is a windfall), rather than imposing some duty on children earlier - not forgetting those who do not have children to leave an inheritance anyway. Rather than forcing people out of their houses whilst still alive, or into the clutches of dubious money lending schemes. Of course the problem is inheritance tax can be got around, especially by those with serious quantities.

I'm not suggesting it for anybody but ER is far more regulated today than years ago and, given the right circumstances, is a valid means to extract some equity from a home.
The Water Industry, and the Banks are regulated too........
 

oldman

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As I said, this is fine in the normal way of life. It is not fine if you can't afford to run the house which you have lived in for many years because of Government fiscal action based on the nominal value of such a house.
I don't think the loss of a benefit of £2-300 per year is going to be the sole reason for anyone selling their house. For some it will add a little to the pressure of trying to hang on to a house which they can't afford, but that's all.
 

Howardh

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I've just applied for my free bus pass, something else I expect to go in the near future! But watching TV today, clearly there's a conundrum between keeping the NHS going and trying not to raise taxes. I would like to see every adult register their credit card with their local GP and hospital, and if they don't turn up for an appointment take a substantial cost from that card!

Unfortunately there would be genuine reasons for not turning up without cancelling - if someone's ill enough to need to see the GP then they could worsen and simply be unable to ring to cancel - maybe a relative rush them to A+E and didn't know about the appointment? So some appeals procedure necessary, and maybe a grace of one missed-but-not-cancelled appt/yr allowed?
 

LYradial

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I must say I've been blown away with the general uncaring unsympathetic attitude of some on this discussion

it’s life, when I was working I looked upon pensioners as affluent, enjoying their lunch, driving round in smart cars etc,
now I am a pensioner and look upon younger people with their new iPhones and endless visits to greggs and costa coffees as very fortunate

i don’t understand their world and they dont understand ours, but it’s not personal, just an understandable general observation,
it would be a dull world if we were all the same.

none of us is perfect, least of all me:D
 

Gloster

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I am nearly of pensionable age, although I won’t get a pension, but I am of the school that over recent years pensioners are one of the groups that have got away lightly, particularly in the last fourteen. I am afraid that it is time they also felt a bit of the squeeze that the ‘hard-working families’ have suffered. I do accept that some of Labour’s measures are a bit of a blunt instrument, but one hopes that there may be some easing in the Budget or afterwards: stick first, then carrot.

Just a thought. One of the biggest problems is housing, but pensioners are the most likely to have this aspect of their life secure and sorted out. How often do you see pensioners sleeping in shop doorways or carrying all their belongings in a couple of rubbish bags as they go from sofa-surf to sofa-surf? Of course, those people who sleep rough are lucky: they don’t have to worry about heating bills.
 

Tetchytyke

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I must say I've been blown away with the general uncaring unsympathetic attitude of some on this discussion
I have huge sympathy for people who are over the threshold for Pension Credit by less than £300 per year/£6 per week. I would have increased the threshold for Pension Credit by £300 per year to protect these people.

Otherwise my sympathy is much more muted. When I started work my pension age was 65 and now it is 68. That's cost me just under £35,000 in lost state pension. It's also worth noting that it is £35,000 that current pensioners did receive.

I suspect my pension age will rise again and I don't expect to be allowed to claim my pension till I'm 70.

I don't recall any controversy when that change happened; apparently giving me the promised pension was "unaffordable".

Same when child benefit became (effectively) means-tested in 2013. I don't recall much controversy from that decision either. Apparently that was also "unaffordable".

The irony that life expectancy is decreasing at the same time that the pension age is increasing is not lost on me either.
It is not fine if you can't afford to run the house which you have lived in for many years because of Government fiscal action based on the nominal value of such a house.
The two things are not linked- the value of the house you live in is (rightly) not treated as savings for the purposes of calculating entitlement to Pension Credit.

My point is more that nobody- and I mean nobody- living in a million pound house can say they are poor.
 

Merle Haggard

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Anyone watching the National Television Awards right now? Jo Hamilton (one of the more prominent sub-postmasters) said on stage that she saw the new Minister last week and "Nothing has changed", with hundreds of sub-postmasters still waiting for any repayments of what was stolen from them. No real progress, and the perpetrators who caused all of this harm and injustice many years ago are still at large. This doesn't look good on the new Government. okay, they can't catch up on this overnight, but you might hope they could make some positive difference.

I don't think that Jo Hamilton was referring to the lack of prosecutions more the delay in compensation.
For instance, from an interview on a radio news programme this morning an example of delay was someone who had been convicted of fraud towards the beginning of the scandal and who had this conviction overturned about 4-5 years ago. He said that his claim for compensation (obviously significant because a conviction for fraud affects your employability) was even now being picked over to the nth degree. He also said that there were many others in the same position.
 

Magdalia

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When I started work my pension age was 65 and now it is 68. That's cost me just under £35,000 in lost state pension. It's also worth noting that it is £35,000 that current pensioners did receive.
Some women born in the 1950s had their pension age increased by 6 years, from 60 to 66.
 

Vinnym

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Otherwise my sympathy is much more muted. When I started work my pension age was 65 and now it is 68. That's cost me just under £35,000 in lost state pension. It's also worth noting that it is £35,000 that current pensioners did receive.
I am a current pensioner and didn’t receive it until I was 66 a loss of one years pension. My wife’s was deferred from 60 to 66. I make that a total loss of seven years in our household, so your comment doesn't hold much water .
 

Merle Haggard

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Some women born in the 1950s had their pension age increased by 6 years, from 60 to 66.

What's not mentioned much is that when pensionable age is reached you no longer pay National Insurance. The result was that, until the recent changes, men aged between 60 and 65 continued tp pay it and women of the same age did not - as well as the latter of course receiving a pension, unlike the former.

it was odd how that injustice was completely overlooked when implementing the 1974 Act but no surprise that, when it eventually was, it was to the less favourable conditions
 

RT4038

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Otherwise my sympathy is much more muted. When I started work my pension age was 65 and now it is 68. That's cost me just under £35,000 in lost state pension. It's also worth noting that it is £35,000 that current pensioners did receive.
When I started work my pension age was 65 and is (was) 66, but living standards and medical advances have put my generation and later in a much better position and health, and I certainly don't begrudge the lost year of pension.

The irony that life expectancy is decreasing at the same time that the pension age is increasing is not lost on me either.
Life expectancy may well be decreasing but not to anything like the life expectancy of the people who were retiring when I started work. The average age of people starting work is also getting higher and higher (sixth form, University and college etc) so the average number of years that people are working is probably about the same, if not less.

The two things are not linked- the value of the house you live in is (rightly) not treated as savings for the purposes of calculating entitlement to Pension Credit.

My point is more that nobody- and I mean nobody- living in a million pound house can say they are poor.

The two things may not be linked for Pension Credit, but they are being in such labels as 'Pensioner millionaires' .

The pensioner millionaires are having house values taken into account to 'beat' pensioners and justify increased taxation and benefit cuts. The million includes values of pension pots and houses to try and make out that these people are wealthy and can afford it. Clearly some are [ I recently read about someone saying that they had a 'comfortable' pension of £66k per year] , however there are others who struggle to finance their lives in their long owned house, whatever it is worth.

To many, the WFA loss is affordable, and a reasonable sacrifice . It is, however, a mistake to assume that it is affordable for everybody and some of those people are not those who are the usual sterotypes (perhaps supporting others for instance).
 

43096

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I am a current pensioner and didn’t receive it until I was 66 a loss of one years pension. My wife’s was deferred from 60 to 66. I make that a total loss of seven years in our household, so your comment doesn't hold much water .
The change for women was to remove a discrimination against men, who were having to work longer while having a shorter life expectancy.
 

Yew

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part of me is inclined to believe that not many people are well-acquainted with the idea of short-term pain for long-term gain.
Just like the massive success of David Camerons "long term economic plan"? That led to one of the slowest recoveries of any developed country.
 

3141

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To many, the WFA loss is affordable, and a reasonable sacrifice . It is, however, a mistake to assume that it is affordable for everybody and some of those people are not those who are the usual stereotypes (perhaps supporting others for instance).
And "stereotypes" figure considerably in some recent posts. My wife and I are in our mid-80s are comfortably off. Not very comfortably off, like some people we know, though as these things are relative we might be considered extremely comfortably off by some who are in a less fortunate position. We had opportunities to save for our retirement and we used them. I don't think it is at all unfair that we will no longer receive the winter fuel allowance, though one can debate whether the method used to decide who gets it and who doesn't is the best one. There will always be some who fall just the wrong side of a line. In the same way, there will be some, but not a high proportion, who are asset rich and cash poor, so they have to make choices. It isn't a moral crime that that should be the case.
 

Citybreak1

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Given the Tories are unelectable how do people see this going? More Reform seats? Another Labour PM maybe? Will the Lib Dem’s become second party? Or is there one of the Tory candidates who could be next PM? Or an early election possible? There’s talk of two Scottish elections too not sure how that will affect things.
 

PGAT

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Given the Tories are unelectable how do people see this going? More Reform seats? Another Labour PM maybe? Will the Lib Dem’s become second party? Or is there one of the Tory candidates who could be next PM? Or an early election possible? There’s talk of two Scottish elections too not sure how that will affect things.
I think many people dont perceive the Tories as “unelectable” as they were during the election; people move on, forget or attribute the blame the current government now. Labours honeymoon period is long over and the polling that I have seen suggests a small bounce back to the Tories and a surge in support for Reform UK (although this doesn’t translate into any significant seat gains)
 

Citybreak1

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I think many people dont perceive the Tories as “unelectable” as they were during the election; people move on, forget or attribute the blame the current government now. Labours honeymoon period is long over and the polling that I have seen suggests a small bounce back to the Tories and a surge in support for Reform UK (although this doesn’t translate into any significant seat gains)
Yes true I wonder if we will get a second term with Labour maybe too early to say but if they keep banning stuff smoking more cuts tax rises?
 

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