The last UK train built?

[HST-DAVE]

Hi. A quick question.

Does anyone know when the last loco or train that was wholly UK designed, tested and constructed using UK parts and UK skills/labour was built, and by a UK company?

I'm not having a go at current manufacturers/companies, just need the info for a general business history summary..

Thanks..

Dave

 

[Failed Unit]

Hi. A quick question.

Does anyone know when the last loco or train that was wholly UK designed, tested and constructed using UK parts and UK skills/labour was built, and by a UK company?

I'm not having a go at current manufacturers/companies, just need the info for a general business history summary..

Thanks..

Dave

I think 91031 will be the closest you will get for the Loco. (unless brush built some of the Eurotunnel loco's after)

 

[starrymarkb]

There was a second batch of shuttles, as well as an extra locomotive to replace the one involved in the fire

 

[sprinterguy]

I think 91031 will be the closest you will get for the Loco. (unless brush built some of the Eurotunnel loco's after)

Brush also assembled the class 92s between 1993 and 1996. The bodies were manufactured in Horbury and the internals came from various places. They also built all the 90XX and 97XX Shuttle locomotives at Loughborough, with the last shuttle locos built in 2002. Though I don’t know how many components for these locos were imported in, they were definitely assembled in the East Midlands.

In terms of multiple units, I’d say the last “true” British train build would be the class 365 Networkers (1994-5), which were built by ABB, the successor to BREL, at York. However it gets a bit convoluted as the original Class 168 “Clubman” trains were proposed by BR but built after privatisation for Chiltern, by Adtranz at Derby in 1997-8, who succeeded ABB. It could therefore be argued that the Class 172 trains currently being built are a continuation of British train building, given that they are direct decendants of the Networker Turbo trains. It depends how far the supply chain has shifted to importing in train parts since BR days (which it was stil necessary to do for certain components in the early nineties): I'm unsure where Derby gets the majority of it's parts from.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I'd imagine the Eurotunnel locos were tested in France weren't they, due to loading gauge issues pre HS1?

Sprinterguy, the Networkers were indeed built by what was already ABB, which is Swiss/Swedish owned! The 92s were also a JV between Brush and ABB.

The last 159s came out of BREL (still BREL at that point) in Derby in 1993, I think they are the last "100%" British trains. For what its worth though, you won't find a train that was 100% British in terms of parts for decades!


I think what we see here is a mixture of broadening commercial and political factors, rail isn't alone in having seen the globalisation of commerce and manufacturing. It is perhaps a consolation that we are still manufacturing in the UK, and any Bombardier products (as Sprinterguy says) are at least assembled in the UK.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Imports have gone on for a long time though. Sprinters, UK designed and built, American engines (Cummins), German transmissions (Voith), and of cource how many trains have had Westinghouse (American) brakes. I think they were all built under licence in the UK, but still. Sulzer engines are Swiss, the Western Region Hydralics were to a greater or lesser extent German, even steam locos often used continental designs (kylchap exhaust for one).

The Bombardier Turbostar and Electrostar designs are definitly the last trains with a full UK heritage, they are an evolution of the Networker. Loco wise it would be the Shuttle locos, Diesel locos would be the 60s.

It works the other way too, we export things like Brecknall Willis Pantographs around the world.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'd imagine the Eurotunnel locos were tested in France weren't they, due to loading gauge issues pre HS1?

Sprinterguy, the Networkers were indeed built by what was already ABB, which is Swiss/Swedish owned! The 92s were also a JV between Brush and ABB.

The last 159s came out of BREL (still BREL at that point) in Derby in 1993, I think they are the last "100%" British trains.


I think what we see here is a mixture of broadening commercial and political factors, rail isn't alone in having seen the globalisation of commerce and manufacturing. It is perhaps a consolation that we are still manufacturing in the UK, and any Bombardier products (as Sprinterguy says) are at least assembled in the UK.

Good point, I neglected the "UK Company" part of the original post: With growing globalisation and outsourcing of individual components that make up the whole, it's difficult to tell where British influence and dominance in a product's design and production ends.

It’s probably safest to stick with anything built by BREL to fulfil the OPs’ criteria in the strictest sense, but as ChrisCooper has said, continental influences and design have been pervading into British train designs for decades.

 

[jopsuk]

I'd reckon there's a fair chance that even the train iyour avatar (the Blue Pullman) would have something in it that was made or designed abroad. Going back further, there's obviously Westinghouse brakes, but also Walschaerts, Caprotti valve gear etc.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Blue Pullman had MAN engines, so German, plus Westinghouse Brakes.

 

[HST-DAVE]

Thanks All, I think the above is a very good summary and makes interesting historical reading.
Maybe we have to go back to the last steam days or early diesels to find the absolute answer
cheers... Dave

 

[sprinterguy]

I'd reckon there's a fair chance that even the train iyour avatar (the Blue Pullman) would have something in it that was made or designed abroad. Going back further, there's obviously Westinghouse brakes, but also Walschaerts, Caprotti valve gear etc.

I know for a fact that the bogies on the Blue Pullman were developments by Metro-Cammel of a Swiss design, and the 1000hp diesel engines are from MAN (Built under licence by the North British Locomotive Co.), who are of course, German. So there’s already plenty of outsourcing going on there, and they were built in the late fifties…

 

[Royston Vasey]

Thanks All, I think the above is a very good summary and makes interesting historical reading.
Maybe we have to go back to the last steam days or early diesels to find the absolute answer
cheers... Dave

You're pretty safe assuming this is 100% British!

 

[jopsuk]

It works the other way too, we export things like Brecknall Willis Pantographs around the world.

Never mind that, don't forget where the first line more advanced than a horse-drawn tramway was... even the first non-steam oil-fired locomotive, and the first electirc (battery powered, as it happens!) loco were British-built.

 

[jonesy3001]

i think the 323's(northern/LM)at hunslet where the last trains built on uk soil.

 

[ainsworth74]

i think the 323's(northern/LM)at hunslet where the last trains built on uk soil.

What about the first batch of 390s (built at Washwood Heath)? Or even the currently being built 172s and 379s (at Derby)? We still build trains in this country, we just have less to do with design, testing and import more parts (so we build kits rather than from scratch).

Of course even the 323s have plenty of foreign designs and parts in them. Going back to the OPs question, for a design that was wholly built and designed in the UK (without any foreign involvment what so ever) I would think you would need to go back to before world war two.

 

[tbtc]

This does bring an angle to the debates we've had about whether we should have "foreign" trains for HS2/ IEP/ Thameslink/ DMU replacement (e.g. the Chinese ones), since nothing is 100% "British" these days...

...is it worth the Government/TOCs paying over the odds so that foreign components can be assembled here (and claimed as "British"?

 

[brel york]

the aluminium extrusions on all 158 .165 166 465 365 came from abroad,165 166 465 365 cab windows are french i think
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
derby gets interior panels from china and has done for quite a while

 

[HST-DAVE]

Thanks for all the replies (so far), I didn't expect so many, 'thought it would be an easy question to answer obviously not.. It must have been one of the early diesels??

Second point, IF we were to try to design, test and build a whole new train here entirely from UK sourced materials/expertise/skills could we do it? and that includes brake pads.. every last nut and bolt. What do you think?

thanks ... Dave

 

[brel york]

doubt it ,the last train built with a br lot number were the 325 mail trains which were to be built at york but moved to derby as they knew york would be shutting ,we struggle to find people with the relevent skills to actually make things now ,brel took on hundreds of apprentices every year in all sorts of different trades ,wabtec rail has an old work force and will struggle to find good apprentice trained labour in the future thats why it is taking a few apprentices on every year

 

[pdq]

How much of Tornado is British?

 

[ChrisCooper]

There is the nature of the globalised economy too. There will be many trains running abroad with some UK built componants. Also at least we still have it in other areas, look at aviation where many planes have British componants. 60% of an A380 is British, and of cource many planes have Rolls Royce engines. Very little anywhere is 100% locally made these days. Back to railways, I bet the majority of the high tech stuff (computer systems etc) comes from the far east, regardless of the country of manufacture.

 

[brel york]

my point exactly ,do we have enough skilled people to build a steam loco doubt it ,im sure we have companies that can do it but it takes forever to do

 

[43167]

How much of Tornado is British?

Certainly not the boiler. That was built in Germany.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I think the big change goes back many years, probably even to the Victorian times and the Industrial revolution, when instead of things being made by hand by a single person (or a small group, usually a craftsman and apprentices) instead things began to be produced on a large scale and began to be standardised. To start with you could have different parts of the factory making different componants, then with improving transport you could start buying in componants from outside suppliers, and then they don't even have to be in the same country. For many years now it's almost impossible to find any fairly complex piece of equipment with a single country of origin.

Raw materials play a part, if a country has access to the raw materials to make certain componants then it's usually cheaper to manufacture those componants in that country and sell them for use abroad than ship out raw materials. Economy of scale is a big factor, it's much more economic to have a big factory churning out thousands of a certain componant which are then sold to other companies to assemble into their products, than for each company to have small departments making the componants themselves.

 

[brel york]

the very reason the original rail companies developed there own workshops was to aviod been reliant on outside industrys

 

[ChrisCooper]

That was in the days before rapid transport and communication though. These days you can order a load of parts from the other side of the world and get them fitted before you could even begin making them in your own workshop (considering they would need to be designed, jigs/moulds etc made, raw materials aquired). The railways of cource played a crucial role in it, in fact it's important to remember that the railways themselves have had a big impact on their own development by allowing the rapid transport of their own raw materials, parts, labour and equipment.

 

[Ploughman]

How about the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland railway building their own Steam locos and new carriages?

 

[brel york]

That was in the days before rapid transport and communication though. These days you can order a load of parts from the other side of the world and get them fitted before you could even begin making them in your own workshop (considering they would need to be designed, jigs/moulds etc made, raw materials aquired). The railways of cource played a crucial role in it, in fact it's important to remember that the railways themselves have had a big impact on their own development by allowing the rapid transport of their own raw materials, parts, labour and equipment.

i accept that its better to use proven technology suck as transmission/engines/electrics ect but these are usually off the shelf,china is 4 weeks away by container and as derby found out if your first batch dont fit its a while before you next which if its on its way its also wrong .if your doing it your self or somewhere local (europe) its easier to put right.i just worry about our basic skill shortages and our ability to make things as opposed to putting kits together .

 

[HST-DAVE]

It seemed a shame that the Tornado boiler (for whatever reason) had to be fabricated overseas. You would have thought that someone in the UK could've made a boiler for a classic British locomotive.
In the last 30 years we've lost so many skills and experience, not just in railway engineering but mechanical engineering in general...

 

[brel york]

we didnt even make the auto ballaster wagon bodies over here ,had to go to france for them to be fabricated