The last UK train built?

[route:oxford]

The PPM has a fair proportion of it made in the UK hasn't it?

 

[HST-DAVE]

Is a PPM a real train? Never heard of it.. thought PPM = Public Performance Measure, or Parts Per Million

 

[MCR247]

Class 139

 

[HST-DAVE]

Oh found it on Wikipedia, looks like the mini-buses we have driving round the countryside.
It isn't a 'real' locomotive or multiple unit by my own definition

True it runs on rails, but so do trams.. Think I'ld call it a ' Rail mini-bus'

 

[Drsatan]

Oh found it on Wikipedia, looks like the mini-buses we have driving round the countryside.
It isn't a 'real' locomotive or multiple unit by my own definition

True it runs on rails, but so do trams.. Think I'ld call it a ' Rail mini-bus'

True, since it seems to fit into the same category as the prototype Pacers. But, I don't know whether the PPMs could be truly British since it's highly likely that many of the components are manufactured outside the UK. As many people have said due to globalisation and outsourcing it's difficult to determine whether say, a car, is 100% French or German simply because the parts have been made elsewhere.

 

[Chz]

It seemed a shame that the Tornado boiler (for whatever reason) had to be fabricated overseas. You would have thought that someone in the UK could've made a boiler for a classic British locomotive.
In the last 30 years we've lost so many skills and experience, not just in railway engineering but mechanical engineering in general...

And even that was East Germany. No-one in the West still made such things. Oddly enough, there's not a lot of call for boilers of that size and construction.

 

[HST-DAVE]

Yes indeed. Germanys export level is 3 times higher than UKs., just heard Vince Cable say that on Parliament Channel.

I think it is about time we started making more 'things', especially in advanced and skilled engineering.. instead of continuously importing just about anything and everything.

Railways and rolling stock can be the ideal place to start, imho.

 

[ChrisCooper]

At least the UK still has a good aerospace industry. A good chunk of Airbus planes comes out of the UK, including highly skilled and technical parts such as engines. There really is not a lot of skill in train building these days anyway, or transport in general. Any craftsmen involved in building trains, cars, buses etc will likely be in the UK on the assembly side anyway. Yes Bombardier might ship flat pack trains in to assemble here, but they still need electricians and plumbers to put it all together. Also, they might be badged as MAN these days, and not well used by the railways, but at least we still make heavy diesel engines in the UK.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think it is about time we started making more 'things', especially in advanced and skilled engineering.. instead of continuously importing just about anything and everything.

Railways and rolling stock can be the ideal place to start, imho.

This is something I strongly agree with, but I know from experience that finance bods are just not willing to stick their necks out to take the risks at the start up stage.

A prime example is my hovercraft project; there has been a fairly constant level of interest in it from potential operators, but is any money forthcoming?

No!

The reason?

You can't get the money to do the final stages of design, the detail design to verify the performance and fuel consumption figures, without a firm order from a customer.

You can't get a firm order from a customer without having the detail design verified figures f=in place for them!

Catch 22 isn't it?!

I have two customers who are definitely interested in multi craft fleets, but still can't get things firmed up for that reason!

For sure the same attitude is holding back other enterprises in all sorts of subjects...

 

[RobShipway]

It is true of any mass produced item that parts are brought from more than one place. Take for instance the Ford Focus, it is put together in Cologne in Germany but the diesel engine is built in Dagenham here in the UK. So if you buy a Focus Diesel then the Engine has gone to Cologne to come back within the framework of your car!! This I believe also happens with trains/locomotives built outside this country that are using parts from suppliers in this country were the locomotives end up back in this country!!.

 

[HST-DAVE]

Peter

I may be able to help. I own a specialist Research and Development company which specialises in conceptual and innovative engineering, amongst our past projects we have been involved with hovercraft design, indeed we a not a milllion miles away from where it was invented and tested. You're welcome to PM me the details or whatever you think best...
Dave

 

[brel york]

having over 26 years in the train builing industry theres a massive difference in the skills required regarding new build as opposed to refurbishment ,train wiring tends to only be a few colours ,every one is idented so on new build its wiring by numbers a lot of the time ,but working on a 30 year old coach thats had major rebuilds during it s life plus all the new stuff fitted at depots ect its a bit more involved.

 

[Rhydgaled]

How about what's the last UK designed (as in external appearance) train? Is this question any easier? I think most of the newer stuff such as 67s, 180s, 170s and 444s are generally not as good looking as 47s, INTERCITYs (125 & 225), 158s and 5-WESes so I'd be interested to know if that's just a coincedence or if British designers are more likely to come up with a good-looking design.

 

[MCR247]

How good a train looks is an opinion, not a fact.

 

[jopsuk]

The Electro/Turbostar families are certainly UK designs.

 

[Wyvern]

. . . . .. Take for instance the Ford Focus, it is put together in Cologne in Germany but the diesel engine is built in Dagenham here in the UK. . . . . also happens with trains/locomotives . . . ..

This true of all sorts of things, even food. There was a TV programme recently where a particular crop was grown in one country, processed in another - Idont remember the details - but I do know it finished up in Spain being packed to send to this country. Downright crazy.

 

[ChrisCooper]

With train design though, especially diesels, they tend to fall into two types, the North American style and the European Style. Beyond that differences between manufacturers tends to be fairly minor, at least for particular eras. Same with cars, buses, planes. The only difference I would say is that back in the 50s and 60s, Britain tended to go for more angular designs, carrying on to an extent into the 90s (just angle the slab front back a little for the 319,321 etc), wheras the Europeans tended to go for far more curvy designs.

Appearance though is very subjective. Some people like function, others form, some like fussy, some simple. I suppose classic British design does tend to be quite geometric rarther than curvy, and fairly simple, but with function tending to vary. Take 4 British design icons, the HST (very straightforward design), the Routemaster (box with rounded corners), Concorde (very pointy) and the traditional phonebox (a box). When it comes to function, American designs tend to be quite functional, often with much exposed (which can help with maintenance etc) wheras British designs tend to be more covered over (which can make maintenance harder). Perhaps that is where British design is strongest, as we tend to be able to balance simplicity with function (evidant in all the classics).

 

[HST-DAVE]

Chris, you've given a good summary there.

I'm looking at train design (style) for functionality, i.e. aerodynamics, physical strength etc, at the moment it is tending towards curves and minimal sharp angles, a bit like aircraft design in method, e.g. fluid dynamics over the surfaces.. The result is elegant in my opinion but will not have the impact of the now classic looks of say a 37 or 47. The new train has a visual impact in another way, but I can't say yet as it is a 5 year project and we want to keep the styling secret for a while

Thanks again for all the replies from everyone so far. Its been very useful to get a feel for the current state of the rail industry... we still haven't found the last 'all UK train yet

 

[4SRKT]

Given that even many modernisation plan diesels had Sulzer engines or German hydraulic transmissions, would it be true to say that the only British built thoroughbreds came from the English Electric stable (and what a fine stable that was!)? Loco-wise could then the class 50s have been the last 100% British built, or would that fall to 56s or 58s? In terms of multiple units surely it has to be something in the 15x series, although someone has already pointed out that 158s had various parts made in France.

I'm going to punt for the Northern Ireland Railways 450 class DEMUs (see my avatar), which were 'built' in 1986 from new build 455 bodies mounted on recovered mk I underframes on reconditioned B5 bogies, powered by EE engines, generators and traction motors recovered from the UTA 70 class DEMUs, themselves introduced in 1966. That the 450 class are all still in regular revenue-earning service with 45 year old traction equipment makes them even more special.

 

[ChrisCooper]

60s were as British as most of the other loco types. As far as DMUs go, 15Xs have American engines and German transmissions. Originally the Pacers had British engines and transmissions, but still German final drive. The 1st Generation DMUs were very British, even the British Vacume brake instead of American Westinghouse (a problem on pretty much everything else). EMUs and Electrics up to the 91 and 322 were quite British too, although the early ones (up to the 86 and some 319s) had French designed pantographs.

Was thinking about Buses, since I'm a bus person too. The last totally British bus would have been the Leyland Olympian, although later ones had ZF (German) gearboxes, and some had Cummins engines. Also brings up a surviving British design, the Leyland O.600 series engine, which was built under licence by both DAF and Scania until very recently (don't think they could quite reach the latest emissions standards) and dates back to the 50s, although has undergone various modifications since then (including bigger cylinder bore, turbocharging, and metrification). Apparently they still kept a distinct Leyland sound to them.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes indeed. Germanys export level is 3 times higher than UKs., just heard Vince Cable say that on Parliament Channel.

I think it is about time we started making more 'things', especially in advanced and skilled engineering.. instead of continuously importing just about anything and everything.

Railways and rolling stock can be the ideal place to start, imho.

Just wanterd to add a +1 to that sentiment.

My first response to the OP was that Tornado might be the answer, but now I realise that it was not entierly 'British'.

I could try to be clever and claim that UK engineers and investors have often carried 'foreign' blood or used 'overseas / colonial' input, but I doubt I'd get very far.

But what saddens me isn't the fact that Tornado, for all its pretentions of originality might have included European skills and materials, its the fact that we simply can't produce anything of international significance without international partners. (Maybe I'm wrong and there are some examples such as Frank Oxford's Olde English marmalade or Lloyds TSB institutionalised UK Mafia, some cheeses and whiskys, the Royal Shakespeare Company and what's left of the BBC, but they're nothing like building trains).

 

[jopsuk]

DaveNewcastle- no country the size of Britain can produce anything of international significance on its own these days. Even the USA doesn't- mighty companies such as Boeing outsource quite a bit.

 

[Matt Taylor]

On that theme it should be remembered that the wings of the Airbus A380 are built in the UK and flown out to Toulouse for final assembly and many aircraft engines are built in the UK.

 

[jopsuk]

Aye- whilst we may import many components for our engineering firms (and I did see the other day in the paper that we do so to greater extent than Germany- typically 70% imported components versus 50% in Germany) we do export a lot as well. It isn't just A380 wings that are built in the UK- ALL Airbus wings are (the A400M unusually has them built at Filton instead of Broughton) thoiugh the 380 wings go by oversized road transporter, barge, ferry, barge and road rather than flying.

But yes, Rolls Royce Aero Engines are used by both major manufacturers extensively.

Of course, defining what is "component" and what is "product" is a bit of a grey area- the site I work at for example imports some materials from our own sites abroad and then ships them on to further of our own sites elsewhere- they then get sold to customers who make components for further customers in yet another country. Even at the first step the raw materials will likely have been sold twice or more before they reach us, being processed at each step.

 

[142094]

In addition to not being a manufacturing powerhouse like we used to, in many cases where we have been world leaders, a foreign company has taken over the business and exported the skills back to their native country. For example on Tyneside we had Charles Parsons works in Heaton and Reyrolle in Hebburn, both take over by Siemens who shifted most of the skills and machinery back to Germany. Only a shadow of the original businesses left here, and even these look like they will be going back to Germany to centralise everything in one place.

Good programme on the BBC coming up on Tuesday about how the Chinese are now doing the same thing in many countries, including the US.

 

[Peter Sarf]

60s were as British as most of the other loco types. As far as DMUs go, 15Xs have American engines and German transmissions. Originally the Pacers had British engines and transmissions, but still German final drive. The 1st Generation DMUs were very British, even the British Vacume brake instead of American Westinghouse (a problem on pretty much everything else). EMUs and Electrics up to the 91 and 322 were quite British too, although the early ones (up to the 86 and some 319s) had French designed pantographs.

Was thinking about Buses, since I'm a bus person too. The last totally British bus would have been the Leyland Olympian, although later ones had ZF (German) gearboxes, and some had Cummins engines. Also brings up a surviving British design, the Leyland O.600 series engine, which was built under licence by both DAF and Scania until very recently (don't think they could quite reach the latest emissions standards) and dates back to the 50s, although has undergone various modifications since then (including bigger cylinder bore, turbocharging, and metrification). Apparently they still kept a distinct Leyland sound to them.

I may be wrong (I cannot remember where/when I was told this) but as regards the first generation DMUs the Leyland engine (horrizontally opposed cylinders) was a German design that we "gained" after the second world war as a result of the exchange of knowledge. Suppose its ours though becsause we beat them, didnt we ?.

 

[ChrisCooper]

No, it was a Leyland 680, straight 6, 11.6l, 150hp. Same were fitted to many buses and lorries, both horizontal and vertical. Some had very similar AEC engines.

You're thinking of boxer engines, which were a German design but I'm not sure if they saw much use in Britain. Of cource the Diesel engine is German anyway, as is the Internal Combustion engine. At least we get the Steam Engine.

 

[Peter Sarf]

No, it was a Leyland 680, straight 6, 11.6l, 150hp. Same were fitted to many buses and lorries, both horizontal and vertical. Some had very similar AEC engines.

You're thinking of boxer engines, which were a German design but I'm not sure if they saw much use in Britain. Of cource the Diesel engine is German anyway, as is the Internal Combustion engine. At least we get the Steam Engine.

Thanks for the info Chris, I shall re-write my memory (see how long it lasts). I will ignore this bit about the origin of the diesel engine.

I saw mention of how small the UK is in relation to the world. It is to our credit that one small country managed to influence so much of the world but it was inevitable that the rest would catch up. I remember an American engineer telling me that, in terms of manufacturing capacity and resources, the great lakes region of the USA was about the same as the whole of Western Europe and so it makes sense for you British to collaborate with your neighbours. I was told that a long tme ago, before terms like Globalisation and before the progress the Chinese are making now. Wonder where we are now ?.

Be positive and think big. I suppose us humans are at the forefront of technology in the western spiral arm of the Galaxy. Or is there another race patiently waiting for us to mature enough to cope with the reality of their existence ?.

 

[starrymarkb]

The bus is also a German invention, by Karl Benz...

 

[Hydro]

The bus is also a German invention, by Karl Benz...

Does that make it a Benzy Bus?