'The Master Cutler' - Friday 15 March

[bluegoblin7]

And even trickier to fit the power cars with tripcocks so they could go via Harrow!

I volunteer as second competent person to run without working tripcock!

 

[kbizzle]

That's a mini-tour which is being sold separately.

Do you have a link to the mini-tour please? As I can't seem to find it

 

[12LDA28C]

Do you have a link to the mini-tour please? As I can't seem to find it

If it's not on the Retro Railtours website then that suggests tickets have not gone on sale yet

I volunteer as second competent person to run without working tripcock!

I believe it's not quite that simple as there have been practically zero railtours on the 'Met' for decades, although maybe a lack of paths is also a major constraint, even though a path is always found for the RHTT during leaf-fall season. What are the chances of a non-tripcock fitted loco being permitted to operate a railtour and what conditions must be met in order for that to happen?

 

[D7666]

I believe it's not quite that simple as there have been practically zero railtours on the 'Met' for decades, although maybe a lack of paths is also a major constraint, even though a path is always found for the RHTT during leaf-fall season. What are the chances of a non-tripcock fitted loco being permitted to operate a railtour and what conditions must be met in order for that to happen?

It is fairly simple. The requirement is essentially a second competent person up front. Which is what was implied.

The second competent person more or less covers all the necessary conditions - a good deal of which is putting the admin in place that ensures a second person is there. Once that person is there, it is very simple.

Myself I am not one who could do that, my Learned Colleague almost certainly is. However, many many moons ago I was involved with organising a main line train over LU tracks - the Hastings DEMU to Watford and Stanmore and Finchley Road - in two seperate portions one behind each other;

Six Bells Junction

Really, the fundamental method of working such non tripcock fitted trains over LU has not changed since then when it comes to conventionally signalled routes, which this part of the Met. main line is. For now. Some details might have been tightened up, and possibly management up the food chain might find specious objection, but at Ground Zero, it is mainly unchanged.


I never really understood why that railtour train a couple of years back with the 33 had to have temporary tripcocks fitted. It could quite easily have been worked with a second competent person. Possibly this had more to do with proving the concept of temporary fittings rather than complying with a mandatory rule.

I do know perceived knowledge is "thou shalt have tripcocks" but as far back as I can remember people always say that and equally as far back as I can remember know of trains that did not. And been on a number of them.

 

[12LDA28C]

It is fairly simple. The requirement is essentially a second competent person up front. Which is what was implied.

The second competent person more or less covers all the necessary conditions - most of which is putting the admin in place that ensures a second person is there.

Myself I am not one who could do that, my Learned Colleague almost certainly is. However, many many moons ago I was involved with organising a main line train over LU tracks - the Hastings DEMU to Watford and Stanmore and Finchley Road - in two seperate portions one behind each other;

Six Bells Junction

Really, the fundamental method of working such non tripcock fitted trains over LU has not changed since then when it comes to conventionally signalled routes, which this part of the Met. main line is. For now. Some details might have been tightened up, and possibly management up the food chain might find specious objection, but at Ground Zero, it is mainly unchanged

All of which begs the question why have so few tours been routed along the Met line from Marylebone to Aylesbury since first generation DMUs were superseded by 165s in 1992, and also why any trains that have failed the tripcock tester on the Up at Amersham or on the Down at Harrow been taken out of service, even when two drivers are in the cab? I can only assume extra 'red tape' has been introduced in the intervening years.

 

[D7666]

All of which begs the question why have so few tours been routed along the Met line from Marylebone to Aylesbury, and also why any trains that have failed the tripcock tester on the Up at Amersham or on the Down at Harrow been taken out of service, even when two drivers are in the cab?

2 questions there.

There may be all sorts of other reasons why few trains go that way. That is something you need to take up with people who organise these things. It may be just that no-one thinks about it. But it is committing more or less to must run to/from Marylebone - and that brings in its own suite of complexications. There are passenger other lines I can think of there are seldom covered by anything - and not just dead end branches that are hard to path but long-ish and interesting through sections : Wimbledon - St.Helier - Sutton is one. ITYF that has been done by main line tours over the past 40 years about as often as Harrow / Amersham has i.e. few and far between.

A train failing a tripcock tester is indicating a fault. Faulty trains need to be taken out of service examined and rectified. Setting out with a train that does not have a tripcock is no way the same thing. What regular trains are there that have two competent persons in the cab that are booked on duty to be doing that ? Neither Chiltern nor LU have any /normal/ operation that is worked in such a way AFAIK. Unless you would like to cite some. And how do you know the other person is a driver anyway never mind competent ? A second person may be in the cab for all sorts of reasons but that does not make that person competent. In a previous role I have have had to ride LU cabs officially; that does not make me competent to be the second person or indeed in any Operating role - I am an engineer. That I can read a red or green (or even dual green over red ) signal as well as any layman can does not make me competent.

 

[12LDA28C]

What regular trains are there that have two competent persons in the cab that are booked on duty to be doing that ? Neither Chiltern nor LU have any /normal/operation that is worked in such way AFAIK. Unless you would like to cite some. and how do you know the other person is a driver anyway ? A second person may be in the cab for all sports of reasons but that does not make that person competent. In a previous role I have have had to ride LU cabs officially; that does not make me competent to be the second person. That I can read a red or green (or even green over red ) signal as well as any layman can does not make be competent.

A train failing a tripcock tester has a fault. Faulty trains need to be taken out of service examined and rectified. Setting out with a train that does not have a tripcock is no way the same thing.

I'm aware of trains with two competent drivers in the cab that have been turned round at Harrow or Amersham due to failing the tripcock tester because the LU have denied the train access to their infrastructure. There are various reasons why two competent drivers might be in the cab together such as a driver under assessment and so on.

A train that has failed a tripcock tester is effectively the same as a train that has no tripcock fitted, as far as the LU is concerned. If a second competent person is available to assist with signal sighting, I don't see why such a train should not be permitted to continue.

 

[D7666]

I'm aware of trains with two competent drivers in the cab that have been turned round at Harrow or Amersham due to failing the tripcock tester because the LU have denied the train access to their infrastructure. There are various reasons why two competent drivers might be in the cab together such as a driver under assessment and so on.

A train that has failed a tripcock tester is effectively the same as a train that has no tripcock fitted, as far as the LU is concerned. If a second competent person is available to assist with signal sighting, I don't see why such a train should not be permitted to continue.

A train that has failed a tripcock tester is not the same as one that has no tripcock.

The first is a fault.

The second is not.

Different rules apply.

The methods of dealing with the two scenarios are not the same.

For one thing failing a tripcock tester might be an indication of something is not in the right place and might be out of gauge.


Quite apart from all this, the emoticon on bluegoblin7's post ought to be heeded

 

[12LDA28C]

A train that has failed a tripcock tester is not the same as one that has no tripcock.

The first is a fault.

The second is not.

Different rules apply.

The methods of dealing with the two scenarios are not the same.

So there's nothing to stop me organising a railtour hauled by a non-tripcock fitted locomotive as long as two competent persons are in the cab then, correct? That's very interesting. I'm sure the LU would agree to it, if that's the case.

 

[D7666]

So there's nothing to stop me organising a railtour hauled by a non-tripcock fitted locomotive as long as two competent persons are in the cab then, correct? That's very interesting.

Someone may, and quite possibly will, find detailed reasons why it can't be done, or some other obscure reason and mask it by this reason.

Or, as you wrote, pathing. Or something like that.

All I am saying is the real basic fundamental point is traction without tripcocks is not an absolute no go - and that second competent person goes most of the way to address it. To the best of my knowledge.

The path to get there might be blocked further up the food chain.

But like I said, do observe emoticons....................

 

[43096]

Someone may, and quite possibly will, find detailed reasons why it can't be done, or some other obscure reason and mask it by this reason.

Or, as you wrote, pathing. Or something like that.

All I am saying is the real basic fundamental point is traction without tripcocks is not an absolute no go - and that second competent person goes most of the way to address it. To the best of my knowledge.

The path to get there might be blocked further up the food chain.

But like I said, do observe emoticons....................

One thing that hasn't been mentioned - at least in terms of this tour - is competence of the driver. I very much doubt that RailAdventure have crew competence via Harrow (why would they?), so to operate this way you'd need either three people in the cab (driver, route conductor, second competent person - which would be a risk assessment issue to say the least) or a driver who both signs the route and is HST competent (which is going to be, at best, hard to find). Either way, it's costing a whole lot more for a fill-in tour that is essentially there to get the set out of the way between arrival and departure of the main tour.

 

[bluegoblin7]

although maybe a lack of paths is also a major constraint

See attached. Plenty of space to path it over the Met using the scheduled departure times from Marylebone. I accept that I haven't looked to see how it works beyond Aylesbury. Met times taken from WTT345, which will remain current in March. It would be running on minimum headways by Chalfont on the northbound/Down, but so do plenty of other Chiltern services.

I believe it's not quite that simple as there have been practically zero railtours on the 'Met' for decades

Zero, or practically zero?

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/190826uk.htm - 2019
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/180429lt.htm - 2018
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/170910lt.htm - 2017
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/150912lt.htm - 2015
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/140816lt.htm - 2014
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/130908lt.htm - 2013
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/110522lt.htm - 2011

Accepted they all ran with trip fitted locomotives, but there have not been 'practically zero' railtours.

If we go back further, to 'traditional' Steam on the Met (last ran 2000), plenty of non-trip fitted locomotives were used: that would be a little over two decades.

What are the chances of a non-tripcock fitted loco being permitted to operate a railtour and what conditions must be met in order for that to happen?

There is provision within the LUL rulebook for the operation of trains without a working tripcock, and the signalling on the Met Main is still designed, operated and maintained to standards for non-trip fitted locomotives (that is, specifically, GC expresses). Whilst I accept that it is incredibly unlikely to happen on a planned basis, it is not insurmountable. People said steam in the tunnels would be impossible, yet it happened in 2013 and 2014. It just needs the right people in the right places.

I'm aware of trains with two competent drivers in the cab that have been turned round at Harrow or Amersham due to failing the tripcock tester because the LU have denied the train access to their infrastructure. There are various reasons why two competent drivers might be in the cab together such as a driver under assessment and so on.

A train that has failed a tripcock tester is effectively the same as a train that has no tripcock fitted, as far as the LU is concerned. If a second competent person is available to assist with signal sighting, I don't see why such a train should not be permitted to continue.

I can recall a number of Chiltern Railways trains that have operated over the Met without a functioning tripcock on the lead vehicle over the last few years. I've signalled several of them.

Quite apart from all this, the emoticon on bluegoblin7's post ought to be heeded

 

[D7666]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned - at least in terms of this tour - is competence of the driver. I very much doubt that RailAdventure have crew competence via Harrow (why would they?), so to operate this way you'd need either three people in the cab (driver, route conductor, second competent person - which would be a risk assessment issue to say the least) or a driver who both signs the route and is HST competent (which is going to be, at best, hard to find). Either way, it's costing a whole lot more for a fill-in tour that is essentially there to get the set out of the way between arrival and departure of the main tour,

Indeed, that is a very valid point.

And what you say about number of persons in cab is right - when we took the DEMU around there it needed 4 persons in the cab (two BR train crew + two LU competent personnel). But what one could do in 1986 is not possible these days and no way I'd suggest it.

Actually at Ground Zero one may well do it that way as there are always sufficient cranks around to do these things and make them work - but that is no way to plan things these days with WRA etc.

This is where "must have tripcocks" could be used as the headline argument for not doing it; if to run without tripcocks need 3 or 4 in the cab and that then becomes a blocking point issue. But then the reason is not "must have tripcocks" but "can't have more than X in cab" or similar.

View attachment 152135
View attachment 152136

But I want to go to Chesham.

 

[43066]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned - at least in terms of this tour - is competence of the driver. I very much doubt that RailAdventure have crew competence via Harrow (why would they?), so to operate this way you'd need either three people in the cab (driver, route conductor, second competent person - which would be a risk assessment issue to say the least) or a driver who both signs the route and is HST competent (which is going to be, at best, hard to find). Either way, it's costing a whole lot more for a fill-in tour that is essentially there to get the set out of the way between arrival and departure of the main tour.

Why on earth would three people in an HST cab be a “risk assessment issue”?

 

[12LDA28C]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned - at least in terms of this tour - is competence of the driver. I very much doubt that RailAdventure have crew competence via Harrow (why would they?), so to operate this way you'd need either three people in the cab (driver, route conductor, second competent person - which would be a risk assessment issue to say the least) or a driver who both signs the route and is HST competent (which is going to be, at best, hard to find). Either way, it's costing a whole lot more for a fill-in tour that is essentially there to get the set out of the way between arrival and departure of the main tour.

Seeing as RailAdventure have more than one member of staff who is ex-Chiltern, I suspect it wouldn't be that hard to resource. I could certainly name one who signs both HSTs and the route.

See attached. Plenty of space to path it over the Met using the scheduled departure times from Marylebone. I accept that I haven't looked to see how it works beyond Aylesbury. Met times taken from WTT345, which will remain current in March. It would be running on minimum headways by Chalfont on the northbound/Down, but so do plenty of other Chiltern services.

View attachment 152135
View attachment 152136



Zero, or practically zero?

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/190826uk.htm - 2019
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/180429lt.htm - 2018
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/170910lt.htm - 2017
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/150912lt.htm - 2015
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/140816lt.htm - 2014
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/130908lt.htm - 2013
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/10s/110522lt.htm - 2011

Accepted they all ran with trip fitted locomotives, but there have not been 'practically zero' railtours.

Maybe I should have been more specific - railtours that have run the full length of the Met through to Aylesbury, and I'm discounting the use of Sarah Siddons as a tripcock-fitted LU locomotive. If we are discussing non-tripcock fitted locomotives my point remains valid. If a tour running with a non-tripcock fitted locomotive is 'not insurmountable' as you state, I wonder why it hasn't been done?

Back in the twilight years of the first-generation DMUs circa 1990-1992 plenty of loco-hauled trains ran over the Met using non-tripcock fitted locos - have the Rules been tightened up since those days, or has the railway in general just become more risk averse? Actually, I think I already know the answer to that.

 

[yorkie]

That's a mini-tour which is being sold separately.

Edit: the mini tour page is now live
https://retrorailtours.co.uk/master_cutler_mini.php

Upon arrival of the main Master Cutler charter train into London, the train will be running north to Banbury to allow enthusiasts that bit extra HST mileage. The train will depart from London, running up the Chiltern Mainline to Banbury, where there will be a short break before returning to London Marylebone.

Main tour tickets are not valid on this service; you will need an extra ticket if you wish to ride on the mini tour.

The train will be formed of a rake of InterCity125 carriages from the 125 Group, with power cars provided by Rail Adventure. This is a rare opportunity to sample a High Speed Train from London Marylebone.


Timings

The following timings have been confirmed:

	Outward ​	Return ​
London Marylebone	11:13​	14:51​
Banbury	13:02​	13:17​

Fares

Standard Class	(Adult)	£30.00
First Class	(Adult)	£50.00

 

[ExRes]

Schedules posted on east midlands rail gen today

14th March - 0804 0Z40 Kings Norton OTPD to Butterley MRC and 1549 5Z41 to Chaddesden Sdgs

15th March - 0542 3Z42 Chaddesden Sdgs to Sheffield, 0648 1Z43 to London Marylebone, 1113 1Z44 to Banbury, 1317 1Z45 to London Marylebone, 1521 1Z46 to Sheffield and 2107 5Z47 to Chaddesden Sidings

16th March - 1230 5Z49 Chaddesden Sidings to Butterley MRC and 1505 0Z49 to Kings Norton OTPD

 

[yorksrob]

Alas, March is a bad month for me as I have no leave left.

 

[silexa]

Has anyone else booked onto this tour received any information about their tickets? All i've got is the payment confirmation email

 

[dooton]

Yep same, for everyone I know (including me) - no ticket just confirmation. Not sure what their plan is....

 

[Iskra]

I got an email recently, which stated it was my ticket with my allocated seat on it. There was no ticket attachment or anything like that. I think it might have gone into my junk folder, so check there.

 

[silexa]

I got an email recently, which stated it was my ticket with my allocated seat on it. There was no ticket attachment or anything like that. I think it might have gone into my junk folder, so check there.

Nothing in my junk folder

 

[RGM654]

I have received an email that says "This is your Travel Ticket and Reservation" and goes on to tell me my coach and seat number. I am taking that at face value. It doesn't look like any ticket I have seen before, but there are so many different sorts nowadays that I'm not unduly surprised by another sort.

 

[Iskra]

I have received an email that says "This is your Travel Ticket and Reservation" and goes on to tell me my coach and seat number. I am taking that at face value. It doesn't look like any ticket I have seen before, but there are so many different sorts nowadays that I'm not unduly surprised by another sort.

That is what I have received, and as it is from the operator, if they deem it a ticket then that’s what counts.

Retro seem a small operation running only a handful of tours a year, so if this simple solution works for them, then I’m not sure it matters that much.

 

[Class15]

I have received an email that says "This is your Travel Ticket and Reservation" and goes on to tell me my coach and seat number. I am taking that at face value. It doesn't look like any ticket I have seen before, but there are so many different sorts nowadays that I'm not unduly surprised by another sort.

I had a similar problem on the Class 321 Farewell Tour last year. They didn’t send tickets only booking confirmation. They let me on the train in the end without hassle…

 

[yorkie]

Yep same, for everyone I know (including me) - no ticket just confirmation. Not sure what their plan is....

Did you get a reservation? As long as you have that, it's fine!

If you are on the mini tour then it would be worded as "you have a place ... go to coach D" or words to that effect

 

[43096]

43468/480 and six Mark 3s are stabled at Chaddesden tonight, ready to go for the tour in the morning.

 

[Iskra]

Looking good at Sheffield this morning, nice to see the EMR Mk3’s back in the station too

 

[jfollows]

Looks like it’s made up most of its delay by Banbury thanks to a good bit of regulation (overtake) at Leamington plus not stopping for 10 minutes at Banbury.

 

[liamf656]

I noticed there isn't a TGS in the consist. How does that affect arrivals/dispatch if the guard can't use the droplights?