"The North Of England Is Getting A Rough Deal" discussion

[yorksrob]

Revenue on Provincial services does not even cover half the operational costs, while London and South East are close to break-even. On top of that, new vehicles are required for Thameslink for technical reasons while the same applies to at least one fleet for Crossrail. So what is the justification for the Northern franchise to get new vehicles when the existing allocation is goo enough an serves it purposes?

And this is what it boils down to. Because the regional railway requires a subsidy, the powers that be assume that the railways in the North are carting around fresh air. It is this misconception that has led to some of the most disasterous funding decisions that have blighted the railway for the past sixty years.

As others have mentioned, The North of England has a similar population to Scotland. Scotland has shown how well other parts of Britain can prosper when the dead hand of Westminster is curtailed.

 

[Olaf]

.. It has to start with the government putting the infrastructure in place to allow businesses to better operate, trade etc. ...

For the types of new businesses being create today, that investment would need to be in broadband internet, not expensive, me-too railway projects.
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As someone who lives on the Huddersfield line 2 stops out of Leeds I cant believe how atrocious the service is. No trains till just before 7am. Only one an hour after 7pm, and only 1tp2h on a Sunday. That coupled with the fact that more often than not if you try to use the train into Leeds in a rush hour the train is completely full already by the time it gets to us and your left on platform for another half hour waiting for another one or have to get up even earlier for work to get on a train.
Northern or WY Metro when challenged on the length of trains say they cant run longer trains than 3 coaches cause two of the platforms cant take anything longer, and cant find any money to lengthen the said platforms, but they can find the money to build brand new stations on other lines into the city as being reported all over local news lately. An extra service would be nice at least in rush hour but we cant have that cause that would reduce the number of express TPE trains that could run so were screwed either way.

Will these issues be addressed under the Northern Hub proposals?

 

[yorksrob]

That investment is happening; Reading, Nottingham, South Wales, WCML, Peterborough, Scottish Electrification, Electric Spine, York approaches, etc etc, but perhaps not as high profile nor as widely visible as the current big ticket schemes.

In a few years the high profile scheme will more than likely be HS2, while "southerners" will be whinging about the lack of funding for Crossrail2.




Not true; there has been a significantly greater investment in rail, by an order of magnitude or more, in that period than in the previous 50 years. The last 15 years have seen the most productive improvements since the end of the war.

Whilst I don't deny that investment over the past twenty five years or so across the country has increased, I still contend that the devolved nations, Scotland in particular, have had far more success at getting the most out of this than the North of England.

 

[northwichcat]

Also remeber, that 'down south' a lot of the BR units have had a decent refresh in the last decade, and although EMT have done a good job on their Sptrinters and HST's Northern just dont have the money to do a refurbishment of anywhere near the same caliber.

Northern do have the money, Northern Rail Limited have made over £100m in profits over the course of the franchise but unlike EMT they don't have a franchise commitment to improve the rolling stock, they just have to do like-for-like replacement of worn out seat covers, flooring etc. So with EMT the passengers are benefiting more than the shareholders but with Northern the reverse is true.

 

[Olaf]

tbtc has gathered many of the previous posters' comments to show the spread of feeling here. It seems that some protagonists from each side have not spent much time in the area that they don't live in e.g. 'northerners' have not spent time in London in the heat of the rush hour, and 'London area' (I mustn't say home counties - apparently) residents have not suffered the piecemeal provision of rail transport in the north (Greater Manchester & West Yorkshire?). I would include myself in the latter group.

Yes, I am inclined to agree about commentators' visibility as to local conditions.

In my case, these days when I travel outside of London it tends to be via international flight from Heathrow, sometimes via Gatwick or City. However, that also means that I get to use public transport in Northern Europe, HK, and the USA so I have visibility of useful comparisons.

I am a regular commuter on services into Waterloo which now appears to be the busiest terminal station, and a user of the local metro.

Previously (70s & 80s, and again in 2007-2012) I spent several years commuting across the UK by rail to large and small towns on inter-city and provincial services. Finally, in the 70s I was a rail commuter in the Liverpool and Manchester areas.

So all in all I have a few tales to tell, but not always a current and all encompassing view of the railway, beyond what is available via reports and analysis. However, it is the numbers & analysis that give the big picture and which are use to make the decisions.

For those who don't know London travel patterns, this graph may come as a surprise:
http://londontransportdata.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/weekday-morning-peak-travel-into-central-london.png
It shows that for most of the last 60 years, over 1 million people travel into London every day and at least 60% travel by rail, now tending to 75%. The roads into London are at capacity.
I suspect that commuting modes in northern cities are probably the inverse of those figures and journeys are on average much shorter. So as I have indicated in previous posts, rail travel into London is key to getting to work and the network is a) fully loaded and b) prone to major collapse even when a single train failure occurs.
In addition, about 400,000 commuters use the tube as part or all of their journey to work. So if we look at the age of the tube stock, things are a mixed bag. Until 2009, two of the tube lines had stock that was over 40 years old. All four of the surface lines had a mix that between 30 and 60 years old. That's why there has been a major update of the stock, mostly paid for by local rates/taxes.
Its not that London is privileged to have this level of service, it would just collapse if it didn't.

A report released last year (or 2012) showed that more than 90% used public transport to get into The City, The West End, and Canary Wharf.
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I don't understand. Are you saying all franchises usually retain their units until they are retired? If so I can think of numerous examples where that's not been the case including 150s and 321s released by LM and 150s released by LO.

All allocations are made on the basis that they will be allocated until end of contract, which translates into retirement with ongoing renewal unless there is a future change of plan; i.e. it is a fallacious argument.

No they haven't.

Yes they have.
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Whilst I don't doubt that London possibly has a latent demand greater than the rest of the UK, I doubt very much it is as low as ten percent.

That is the number detailed in the RUS. Yes, it could be higher, it could be lower, but it is difficult to measure reliably. There is no mention of latent demand in the RUSes for Manchester, or Merseyside.

 

[Class83]

Interesting to note that Northern+TPE have 115 million customers/year while Scotrail have 85 million. The combined population of NE, NW & Yorks is about 3 times that of Scotland. So the increased investment Scotrail receives seems to result in twice as much usage per head of population.

Also when discussing subsidy to Northern, how many of the London Commuter ToCs don't require subsidy?

 

[Olaf]

And this is what it boils down to. Because the regional railway requires a subsidy, the powers that be assume that the railways in the North are carting around fresh air. It is this misconception that has led to some of the most disasterous funding decisions that have blighted the railway for the past sixty years.

As others have mentioned, The North of England has a similar population to Scotland. Scotland has shown how well other parts of Britain can prosper when the dead hand of Westminster is curtailed.

That is not the case with respect to subsidy. Funding for capital investment was based on the DfT model of economic growth, however that model was shown about four years ago to under estimate growth in northern cities. That, by my understanding, has now been corrected. Even so, the numbers of users do not, in most cases, necessitate substantial capital investment except in rolling stock and platform extensions, if that.
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[QUOTE\Olaf]
As others have mentioned, The North of England has a similar population to Scotland. Scotland has shown how well other parts of Britain can prosper when the dead hand of Westminster is curtailed.

Scotland is investing in an extravagant pet project; although there is growth from the new investment, the level of usage is very low, an the subsidy one of the highest.
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[QUOTE\Olaf]
As others have mentioned, The North of England has a similar population to Scotland. Scotland has shown how well other parts of Britain can prosper when the dead hand of Westminster is curtailed.

Scotland is investing in an extravagant pet project; although there is growth from the new investment, the level of usage is very low, an the subsidy one of the highest.

 

[Beveridges]

It's not the age of Pacers that is the problem. It is the quality of them. They were poor from day one.

HST's are older but they are much higher quality.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes they have.

Please provide a link to a current Network Rail RUS that specifically states about the Pacer withdrawal process, which isn't superseded by another document. If there is one, which you're saying there is, then a lot of people will be very interested including transport bodies like PTEs.

 

[yorksrob]

That is not the case with respect to subsidy. Funding for capital investment was based on the DfT model of economic growth, however that model was shown about four years ago to under estimate growth in northern cities. That, by my understanding, has now been corrected. Even so, the numbers of users do not, in most cases, necessitate substantial capital investment except in rolling stock and platform extensions, if that.
.

So we still have fifty four years of bad investment decisions to make up for.

You correctly state that a lot of the capital investment we need are longer trains and platform extensions. Whilst electrification etc will be bringing some increase in capacity, most communities outside of the South East will still be asking "where are our longer trains and platform extensions".

With regard to Scotland, I'd hardly call reinstating a route such as the Waverley, which shouldn't have closed in the first place, a "vanity project" and quite how anyone can comment on the passenger numbers, considering the first train hasn' t even run yet, I don't know.

Fortunately Scottish Government hasn't been full of Beeching throwbacks for the past fifteen years.

 

[chorleyjeff]

As others have mentioned, The North of England has a similar population to Scotland. Scotland has shown how well other parts of Britain can prosper when the dead hand of Westminster is curtailed.

Getting a juicy Barnet formula settlement helps as well.

 

[thealexweb]

When flicking through the documentation for the new Scotrail franchise I noticed the high(ish) standards that are expected. The new Northern and Transpennine should be expected to match these e.g. bogied vehicles, phase-in of wifi, etc.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's not the age of Pacers that is the problem. It is the quality of them. They were poor from day one.

I have deliberately refrained from making a posting upon this thread as my views on most of the discussed topics are well known, but I will make an exception to agree totally with your expressed view above where the Class 142 railbus fleet, in particular, are concerned.

 

[apk55]

Jobs are created where directors want to live an work. As directors are normaly on huge incomes high housing costs are no problem to them. And the fact that they can get away with paying little more for staff in the SE than the North or less desirable areas means there is no incentive to look elsewhere. The consequence of this means that people are having to live in "sheds with beds" or other squalid cramped conditions or be unemployed in the North. And this also costs the goverment money for extra infastructure and social service costs. These facts appear to wory the directors little and I suspect many would be quite happy to employ illegal imigrants at slave labour rates.

Many of the Northern towns had a lot of employment localy, so travel to work distance was quite short and towns such as Oldham and Ashton U lyne were quite self contained. However with the closure of many firms and the change of employment practices to "hire and fire" means many peope are forced into communting outside the town or even leaving the area to go south for work. Many of these towns are being stripped of young people who have little option other than to leave. Others may chose to leave their familes in the North and commute for the week staying in a cramped shared rented house- and I know several people who come in this catogory. This results in a vast tidal flow on the M6 on a Sunday night south and Friday afternoon north.

 

[Moonshot]

I have deliberately refrained from making a posting upon this thread as my views on most of the discussed topics are well known, but I will make an exception to agree totally with your expressed view above where the Class 142 railbus fleet, in particular, are concerned.

Isnt hindsight wonderful.......

 

[Oswyntail]

For the types of new businesses being create today, that investment would need to be in broadband internet, not expensive, me-too railway projects......

That may be so, but are the "types of new business being created" what the country needs? We have had near brushes with disaster because of our reliance on intangibles, and we find it hard to grow because of reliance on imported product. This is not communist social engineering, but a sensible process of maintaining a mixed economy. Focussing on the SE (which has happened, and still does) risks more catastrophe.

 

[Lampshade]

Also when discussing subsidy to Northern, how many of the London Commuter ToCs don't require subsidy?

Only FCC.

 

[Moonshot]

Only FCC.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-subsidy-per-passenger-mile

 

[cactustwirly]

Actually its SWT, SN and FCC

 

[Andyh82]

When you speak to people (ie ordinary as opposed to railway enthusiasts) two phrases that never come up are "we really need to knock 10 minutes off the train time to London in order to boost the local economy" and "there aren't enough trains from Leeds to Manchester". The realities are all around your sort of issues such as physically being able to get on the train, getting a seat, people getting away without paying etc. What money there is, is being spent on the wrong things.
Taking the line you quote, everything is being stymied by TPE. But do we really need to run 5 fast trains an hour from Leeds to Manchester? Wouldn't 3 six car trains/hour be just as acceptable as 5 three car ( with some 4 and 6) trains? It would surely be much cheaper and make an impact on the subsidy required by TPE.

You then have potential to improve the local services, attract more passengers onto longer trains and get the subsidy down (by increasing fare income but not increasing train crew costs). On your line partly by opening a halt at White Rose Centre which we are told "cant be done" as the TPE service means there are no paths.

This is what I never can understand. All improvements seem to be based around more services, electrification and faster journeys to London. Nobody has a problem with the time it takes to London or the number of trains to Manchester as they are both already at a higher standard to the rest if the Northern network.

More carriages on existing services and platform lengthening is never discussed, and it is what is strangling the network in the North (plus sorting out pinch points, passing loops etc)

Presumably because they aren't 'sexy' projects. Announcing the lengthening of Batley platform won't get on the national news.

 

[HYPODERMIC]

Adjusting transport funding to address your points will not make much difference, and will only undermine successful businesses. The type of social engineering you suggest has been a proven failure; e.g. the Soviet Union, China's Cultural Revolution, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. QED.

Absolutely - investing in strategic economic infrastructure in order to encourage private sector growth in post-industrial communities is definitely comparable to communist command economics and China's Cultural Revolution, which resulted in mass starvation, widespread illiteracy, ethnic discrimination, and ultimately, several hundred thousand deaths.

Long-term strategic planning of infrastructure investment is literally the same principle as totalitarian social engineering, and we're only fortunate you were here in time to point it out before anyone accidentally caused a humanitarian crisis.

"QED" indeed - a case well and truly proven.

Thank you. I have been looking for the source of that quote, which is neither from the ORR nor the DfT. It turns out that is is from the "The Institute for Public Policy Research, is the UK's leading progressive think tank", so the analysis is hardly likely to be balanced.

In the same paragraph, the following response from the DfT representative is given:

I think the key point however, is that there is a lot of emotion around this subject that has been stirred-up by the usual suspects in the political establishments but that there is generally little substance to the claims, except perhaps in some individual cases, when you take a look at the claims that are being made, and the grounds upon which they are based.

Darn those inherently-untrustworthy 'progressive' sorts, with their vested interests and their emotions and their agendas. Not like the Good Lord's very own Department for Transport, which always speaks the glorious gospel truth and delivers unto us every time a selfless and balanced analysis.

The really depressing thing, of course, is that these are per capita figures, not absolute sums - so there's really not much excuse for such gaping disparities, because many less people live in the North East than live in London such that even a relatively small share of the total funding pot would equate to relatively her per capita figures. Per capita investment is really the very easiest one for the government to look good on.

P.S.
I am a Northerner that did make the move south.

And I'm a Southerner. And I'll shortly be moving to London too.

Above all I'm simply British - dare I say a little proud to be - and I want to see my country as a whole do well. That means encouraging the success of London, but it also means looking to see how we can encourage, as much as it is possible, similar success elsewhere in Britain. And I really do believe that it's actually possible; not to the same extent as in other countries, certainly not to replicate the US or Germany, but I have become quite convinced that the modern United Kingdom's story does not need to be one of inexorable, inevitable, terminal decline, with one alpha city becoming the sole gem in a mire of tepid mediocrity.

If we do not avert this, then as a nation we face a future in which increasingly unbearable pressure on one part of the country demands the payment of ever-greater fortunes in exchange for diminishing returns to capacity and journey time, with that one part of the country in turn forced to pay ever-more onerous subsidies to the stagnant and unproductive rest. In the long term, everyone loses.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Isnt hindsight wonderful.......

For those with no real experience, perhaps. Howsoever, since I travelled on the Class 142 units from the first day of their introduction as new upon the Oldham Loop Line on a daily basis to and from Oldham Mumps for four years, I speak with the voice of experience as to these particular units.

 

[Rapidash]

I return to you in your time of....self-pity.

Just returned from a week up north, based in Mancland, but as someone from a rail deprived area I'll chuck my two pennies in, as everyone does for down here

I primarily used TPE to get around, and I spent the majority of the time gazing out the windows. The strangest thing to me, as we powered through the Pennines and all the station there was this: Where on earth is everyone?

The stations passed usually only had two people on them, the trains I used were barely half full outside of the peak, and even the peak services used weren't that chocka, there was a strange mob headed for one service out of York just after 1600, though. I've seen more people in the middle of winter waiting at Dawlish Warren than most of those town stations!

Which was when a 2nd thought struck me: Either people aren't using these routes, or the frequency is so high that it keeps the numbers down at each station throughout the day, which would be pretty fantastic, and would suggest that people don't quite appreciate what they have.

I was utterly confused by the lack of proper ticket barriers at Lime Street, Piccadilly and York. How are you meant to get an accurate number on journeys made without 'em? Crazy.

Oh and if the Pennine route through to York is ever electrified, the South West will happily take the 185's off of you Would be perfect for the Metro! Luggage space, bike space and don't rattle....they would be glorious! Right length as well!

 

[northwichcat]

It's not the age of Pacers that is the problem. It is the quality of them. They were poor from day one.

Also the size of them is an issue. Northern providing a pair of Pacers on a service is seen as a strengthened service, when they are similar in capacity to 3 car DMUs used by other operators.
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The stations passed usually only had two people on them, the trains I used were barely half full outside of the peak, and even the peak services used weren't that chocka, there was a strange mob headed for one service out of York just after 1600, though. I've seen more people in the middle of winter waiting at Dawlish Warren than most of those town stations!

Which services did you use and which stations are you referring to? Many local stations in the North only have an hourly service so going through not seeing many passengers waiting isn't surprising if a train isn't just about to arrive.

TPE have only just introduced a new timetable so they may not have the capacity allocated as well as it could be. People have been commenting on the new Livepool-Newcastle services being extremely quiet west of Huddersfield while some other services remain very busy.

The week before the May timetable change I caught the approx 14:40 Manchester-Hull service between Manchester and Huddersfield on a weekday which was a 2 car 170 and that service had all seats occupied and some people had to stand. The person with the catering trolley decided the train was too busy for him to attempt to make his way through.

What gets forgotten is TPE are supposed to be regional services. There should be enough seats for all passengers on services which have more than 20 minutes between stations. TPE have a higher seat occupancy rate than Chiltern, Southeastern, c2c, Anglia, FCC, FGW, SWT or Southern.

I was utterly confused by the lack of proper ticket barriers at Lime Street, Piccadilly and York. How are you meant to get an accurate number on journeys made without 'em? Crazy.

You do know that ticket barriers are useless for providing such information. People buy PTE tickets which the barriers don't accept, some people ask to retain tickets for Delay Repay and usually barriers at stations are left open at quieter times meaning ticket barriers are less capable of providing accurate passenger information than LENNON data is.

Oh and if the Pennine route through to York is ever electrified, the South West will happily take the 185's off of you Would be perfect for the Metro! Luggage space, bike space and don't rattle....they would be glorious! Right length as well!

Manchester-York is being electrified but there will be TPE services that will remain diesel. There is set to be platform lengthening on the CLC line to allow 6 car 185s so I think we can assume the 185s are remaining based at the Siemens depot at Ardwick.

 

[LateThanNever]

Absolutely - investing in strategic economic infrastructure in order to encourage private sector growth in post-industrial communities is definitely comparable to communist command economics and China's Cultural Revolution, which resulted in mass starvation, widespread illiteracy, ethnic discrimination, and ultimately, several hundred thousand deaths.

Long-term strategic planning of infrastructure investment is literally the same principle as totalitarian social engineering, and we're only fortunate you were here in time to point it out before anyone accidentally caused a humanitarian crisis.

"QED" indeed - a case well and truly proven.

Deadpan, wonderful stuff!

Darn those inherently-untrustworthy 'progressive' sorts, with their vested interests and their emotions and their agendas. Not like the Good Lord's very own Department for Transport, which always speaks the glorious gospel truth and delivers unto us every time a selfless and balanced analysis.

The really depressing thing, of course, is that these are per capita figures, not absolute sums - so there's really not much excuse for such gaping disparities, because many less people live in the North East than live in London such that even a relatively small share of the total funding pot would equate to relatively her per capita figures. Per capita investment is really the very easiest one for the government to look good on.

And I'm a Southerner. And I'll shortly be moving to London too.

Above all I'm simply British - dare I say a little proud to be - and I want to see my country as a whole do well. That means encouraging the success of London, but it also means looking to see how we can encourage, as much as it is possible, similar success elsewhere in Britain. And I really do believe that it's actually possible; not to the same extent as in other countries, certainly not to replicate the US or Germany, but I have become quite convinced that the modern United Kingdom's story does not need to be one of inexorable, inevitable, terminal decline, with one alpha city becoming the sole gem in a mire of tepid mediocrity.

If we do not avert this, then as a nation we face a future in which increasingly unbearable pressure on one part of the country demands the payment of ever-greater fortunes in exchange for diminishing returns to capacity and journey time, with that one part of the country in turn forced to pay ever-more onerous subsidies to the stagnant and unproductive rest. In the long term, everyone loses.

Quite, the more the South East 'overheats', the more money seems to get spent on it. Mind you London is overwhelmingly dependent on rail to provide its labour supply.

 

[Bill Stanier]

Try a TPE out of Manchester between 07:00 and 09:30. Rammed full, with passengers left behind at some stations as they can't get on board.

Even in the middle of the day the trains are very busy IME between Man and Leeds.

 

[Andyh82]

Try a TPE out of Manchester between 07:00 and 09:30. Rammed full, with passengers left behind at some stations as they can't get on board.

Even in the middle of the day the trains are very busy IME between Man and Leeds.

I don't think I've ever seen a TPE service through Huddersfield that can be considered quiet, unless there is disruption and one is following right behind another one. Even off peak they are usually half full. Saturdays are usually 75% full at least all day.

The new Liverpool service tends to be quiet as it follows 6 minutes behind another one westbound, but that has only been running a few weeks so doesn't count.

 

[Rapidash]

I used TPE just after the peak in the morning and afternoon out of Manchester and Liverpool, they were at most 60% full on the majority journeys I took. The trip back from York on thursday afternoon/evening was the busier of the lot, and even then, people were standing when seats were available.

Be thankful you have such a frequent service up there on the express for commuting, made me a bit jelly!

 

[Moonshot]

Try a TPE out of Manchester between 07:00 and 09:30. Rammed full, with passengers left behind at some stations as they can't get on board.

Even in the middle of the day the trains are very busy IME between Man and Leeds.

Which is indicative of the tremendous success that TPE have had over the years......its a victim of its own success.

 

[fowler9]

I have several friends who live and work in London. The thing they all have in common is that none of the industries they work in have any need to be in London other than that is where the infrastructure is. Building more infrastructure there is just creating more of a need for everything to be there. It is utterly ridiculous in my humble opinion.
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I return to you in your time of....self-pity.

Just returned from a week up north, based in Mancland, but as someone from a rail deprived area I'll chuck my two pennies in, as everyone does for down here

I primarily used TPE to get around, and I spent the majority of the time gazing out the windows. The strangest thing to me, as we powered through the Pennines and all the station there was this: Where on earth is everyone?

The stations passed usually only had two people on them, the trains I used were barely half full outside of the peak, and even the peak services used weren't that chocka, there was a strange mob headed for one service out of York just after 1600, though. I've seen more people in the middle of winter waiting at Dawlish Warren than most of those town stations!

Which was when a 2nd thought struck me: Either people aren't using these routes, or the frequency is so high that it keeps the numbers down at each station throughout the day, which would be pretty fantastic, and would suggest that people don't quite appreciate what they have.

I was utterly confused by the lack of proper ticket barriers at Lime Street, Piccadilly and York. How are you meant to get an accurate number on journeys made without 'em? Crazy.

Oh and if the Pennine route through to York is ever electrified, the South West will happily take the 185's off of you Would be perfect for the Metro! Luggage space, bike space and don't rattle....they would be glorious! Right length as well!

So you would happily take our long distance trains for you metro. Kind of sums up what some of us complain about.