• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

The North of England - where does it start?

Status
Not open for further replies.

telstarbox

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
5,984
Location
Wennington Crossovers
This is pretty close to where I'd split it too, except that the government regions have unsurprisingly chosen to include whole counties only. I'd say the northern half of Derbyshire definitely belongs in the north, as possibly does northern Nottinghamshire and maybe a bit of Lincolnshire.

The official regions make sense but lead to some odd situations like Glossop and Crowden (in the Peaks) being in the 'East Midlands', Watford being 'East of England', and Hertfordshire and Essex being outside the South East as it's usually understood.

In railway terms, I'd say the North starts at Crewe, Chesterfield and Doncaster.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,425
Location
nowhere
Edit: Do we consider there to be a Midlands zone or do we just have north and south?

Cities like Birmingham and Nottingham are by no means Northern, but they aren't Southern either. So yes, the Midlands is a thing.
 

Harbornite

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2016
Messages
3,634
I am shocked by some responses! Keele, Sandbach, Rugby, Coventry, Corby, Peterborough, Worcester & Hereford are not Northern towns. i doubt some of those councils would thank you for lumping them in with places like Middlebrough!

Edit: Do we consider there to be a Midlands zone or do we just have north and south?

Yes there is definitely a Midlands. No offense t'anyone oop North, but if there wasn't a Midlands, then I'd rather be lumped in with the South.

On another note, people claiming that Rugby, Coventry, Corby, Peterborough, Worcester and Hereford are Northern towns are deluded and need to look at map. I'd say that even Derby is hard to classify as Northern, it is really close to the cusp.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think it's a line from The Wash that runs north of Peterborough, but then south of Corby, between Coventry & Leamington Spa, south of Stratford (upon Avon), and then north of Worcester and then north of Hereford to the Welsh "border."

No it isn't, this is nonsense. How can you conslider Shrewsbury, Coventry, Birmingham and Stratford as part of the North? I define the North as being north of a downward curved line that starts at Chester, passes south of Sheffield, north of Lincoln and ends south of Grimsby. Stoke, Derby and Notts are not included.
 
Last edited:

Calthrop

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2015
Messages
3,350
The historic counties of Northumberland, County Durham Cumbria, Lancashire, Cheshire , the historic ridings of Yorkshire and in addition the unitary authorities of North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire. Which incidentally more or less consists of the following Euro constituencies/English regions: North West England, North East England and Yorkshire and the Humber.

I'd largely agree with you here, mikeg. Slight suggested adjustments: my parents were from Chester city or just outside of same, and they identified themselves and their area of origin, as Northern. I kind of gut-feel, though, that the county of Cheshire should be split, re regional characteristics: the northern half of it, counting as part of the North; the southern half more akin to the Midlands / the Welsh Marches. Somewhat the same with (as you mention -- second quote from you, below) Derbyshire, which bulges quite a long way up northward -- to Woodhead and a little way beyond; in connection with which, the Peak District strikes me as definitely Northern, except maybe for its limestone southernmost fringes.

I like to imagine, dividing the North of England from "the rest", a straight line running approximately west-south-west, from Cleethorpes to the Welsh border just south-and-west of Chester city.

Thinking about it, Lincolnshire's a funny county, I associate most of it with being in the East Midlands, the unitary authorities as being in the North, along with maybe Lincoln at a pinch and the South Eastern extremities as being practically anglian.

I agree with (my bolding, above !). I was born and spent my early childhood in the Fenland far south of Lincolnshire (my parents were "exiles" there). For sure, no way can that area feel like or be counted as "Northern".

The closest equivalent in this sense I can think of is Derbyshire, North West Derbyshire areas in the North West, Northern bits are almost an extension of Yorkshire, most of it in the Midlands, most East Midlands but some almost bordering on West Midlands.

Edit: Do we consider there to be a Midlands zone or do we just have north and south?

Cities like Birmingham and Nottingham are by no means Northern, but they aren't Southern either. So yes, the Midlands is a thing.

I'm with all who opine that it is indeed not just north and south -- there are intervening zones with their own definite traits. I could never envisage East Anglia, or the Midland areas running westward therefrom to the Welsh border, as "the South". I might venture to suggest that the River Thames, throughout its course, marks the northern limit of "the South": which -- at location(s) which could be argued over -- ultimately merges / transforms into the West of England.
 

Harbornite

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2016
Messages
3,634
The feeling is mutual, I'm sure. ;)

I'd rather be part of Southern Scotland, and I feel sick just writing that!

Nah, Scotland's fine, in fact some people could argue that Corby is actually the southern limit of Scotland...
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,912
Location
Richmond, London
I'd say the northern half of Derbyshire definitely belongs in the north, as possibly does northern Nottinghamshire and maybe a bit of Lincolnshire.

How would you define northern Derbyshire by the way? Honest question here as I was born in Derbyshire but generally regard Chesterfield as being North Midlands rather than the north.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd say that even Derby is hard to classify as Northern, it is really close to the cusp.

Even the Londoners that I work with don't regard Derby as being in the north and the same goes for Nottingham.
 

telstarbox

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
5,984
Location
Wennington Crossovers
Buxton and Chesterfield are northern because they are within the 'gravitational field' of Manchester / Sheffield; Ashbourne and Belper aren't because they are within Derby's. IMHO :)
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,350
Location
Stirlingshire
Living in Scotland all of the North of England (wherever it starts) is South to me.

One thing I did wonder is if that Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds are included what are Cumbria and Westmorland etc..North North ? :idea:
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,570
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Following on from a silly exchange about northern MP's in this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2631226&posted=1#post2631226


Where do you think the North of England starts?

For the kind of journeys I tend to make, at Chester, Crewe or somewhere past Stoke on the WCML, or somewhere between Keele and Thelwall Viaduct on the M6.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Cities like Birmingham and Nottingham are by no means Northern, but they aren't Southern either. So yes, the Midlands is a thing.

To continue the WCMLish theme, I'd say South East to Midlands is Watford Gap or Long Buckby (or debatably Northampton - MK considers itself in the SE even though that is debatable in some ways).
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,570
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Living in Scotland all of the North of England (wherever it starts) is South to me.

One thing I did wonder is if that Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds are included what are Cumbria and Westmorland etc..North North ? :idea:

Some would separate the North West, Yorkshire and "the North", the latter being Newcastle and surrounds. But I'd say the "North West" is everything from the Wirral Peninsula up to the border, but stopping at the Pennines going east.
 

Phil.

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2015
Messages
1,323
Location
Penzance
Draw a line from Hull to Preston. Everything on and above that line is the north. Everything west of the Helford River is West Penwith. You can fight it out over the rest.
 

Iskra

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2014
Messages
8,131
Location
West Riding
Draw a line from Hull to Preston. Everything on and above that line is the north. Everything west of the Helford River is West Penwith. You can fight it out over the rest.

That excludes Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield; three quintessentially Northern cities.

I think a few people have a very squiffy understanding of English geography and culture (I will of course let the Scottish contributors off on this occasion ;) )
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,458
Location
0035
No it isn't, this is nonsense. How can you conslider Shrewsbury, Coventry, Birmingham and Stratford as part of the North? I define the North as being north of a downward curved line that starts at Chester, passes south of Sheffield, north of Lincoln and ends south of Grimsby. Stoke, Derby and Notts are not included.

I'd say Birmingham has more in common in terms of culture, speech, demographics and how the city feels, with cities like Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool and Newcastle, than it does with major places like Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge, Canterbury, Reading and Plymouth.
 

Harbornite

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2016
Messages
3,634
I'd say Birmingham has more in common in terms of culture, speech, demographics and how the city feels, with cities like Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool and Newcastle, than it does with major places like Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge, Canterbury, Reading and Plymouth.

But in geographical and "social" terms, it is Midlands. You wouldn't say that Stratford on Avon is more like Matlock than Oxford.
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,350
Location
Stirlingshire
I'd rather be part of Southern Scotland, and I feel sick just writing that!

Nah, Scotland's fine, in fact some people could argue that Corby is actually the southern limit of Scotland...

Do one peaky blinder - you and your yam yam neighbours can stay in The Midlands <D
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,660
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Living as I do in the nicest part of rural Cheshire East, one could well imagine Merlin in a fit a pique hiving off our area from somewhere near to West Sussex and magically relocating it in its current situation, just to spite the Wizard of Alderley Edge..:D
 

Harbornite

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2016
Messages
3,634
Do one peaky blinder - you and your yam yam neighbours can stay in The Midlands <D

Oi watch it yow, it's black country day and ye day wanna be saying that in Dudloy, we'll set our wammels on ya!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Living as I do in the nicest part of rural Cheshire East, one could well imagine Merlin in a fit a pique hiving off our area from somewhere near to West Sussex and magically relocating it in its current situation, just to spite the Wizard of Alderley Edge..:D

Careful what you wish for. When Commissar Corblin becomes leader, he will order the residents of the Cheshire triangle to redistribute their wealth amongst the proletariat, and the area will be settled by the scum who currently live in Bootle and Halewood, the real heart of Cheshire! Your mansion will be surroundes by council blocks, then you'll miss Sussex!
 
Last edited:

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,350
Location
Stirlingshire
Oi watch it yow, it's black country day and ye day wanna be saying that in Dudloy, we'll set our wammels on ya!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most "wammels" are to be seen parading around Dudley High Street (or whats left of it) on a Friday and Saturday Night - were talking humanoid rather than canine. <D

Being from Harborne I'm suprised you wish to be associated with yam yam's. For heavens sake you have a Waitrose and the OU Regional Office !! I was working in Harborne on 9/11 at an entertainment venue now closed.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,660
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Careful what you wish for. When Commissar Corblin becomes leader, he will order the residents of the Cheshire triangle to redistribute their wealth amongst the proletariat, and the area will be settled by the scum who currently live in Bootle and Halewood, the real heart of Cheshire! Your mansion will be surroundes by council blocks, then you'll miss Sussex!

Two things in answer to your points raised:-

1).....Bootle (historically Bootle-cum-Linacre) was never part of Cheshire, but was always part of Lancashire. It was once administered by the Hundred of West Derby.

2).....The Sussex area that I admire is West Sussex....most definitely not East Sussex....:D
 

Harbornite

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2016
Messages
3,634
Most "wammels" are to be seen parading around Dudley High Street (or whats left of it) on a Friday and Saturday Night - were talking humanoid rather than canine. <D

Being from Harborne I'm suprised you wish to be associated with yam yam's. For heavens sake you have a Waitrose and the OU Regional Office !! I was working in Harborne on 9/11 at an entertainment venue now closed.

I've mixed views of our Black country neighbours. I do like to think of Harborne as a black country town, even thought it has never been regarded as such. However, I'm not keen on the plans for Birmingham to absorb the black country because Birmingham's average life expectancy will decrease by at least 30 years. :) However my main concerns are the hordes of scum from Northfield and Weoley that invade us when we have the carnival. They most definitely fit the bill of wammels! <D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Two things in answer to your points raised:-

1).....Bootle (historically Bootle-cum-Linacre) was never part of Cheshire, but was always part of Lancashire. It was once administered by the Hundred of West Derby.

2).....The Sussex area that I admire is West Sussex....most definitely not East Sussex....:D

Either way Paul, the politburo of the UBSR (union of British Soviet socialist republics) will not view favorably the likes of you!
 

DasLunatic

Member
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
696
north-south_divide_detail2_800px.jpg


There's already an official N/S line...
 

GrimsbyPacer

Established Member
Joined
13 Oct 2014
Messages
2,256
Location
Grimsby
In simplistic terms draw a line from the Mersey to the Humber and stop at the Scottish border, simples

That's not simple!
You've split Stockport into different regions, your line also relegates, Birkenhead, Chester, Crewe, Altrincham, Sheffiels, Rotergam, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Immingham, & Grimsby which are all officially Northern.
Assuming this is a strait line. Council & Region boundaries are the simplest to use.
 

Class172

Established Member
Associate Staff
Quizmaster
Joined
20 Mar 2011
Messages
3,798
Location
West Country
There's already an official N/S line...

Sometimes the official sources are false. I for kne would not use that map to indicate North, Midlands and South.

I certainly don't accept that map. Whilst the lack of the Midlands being represented is normally resented by myself, I feel far more annoyed at the fact Worcester has been dumped into the north (how on earth does one come to that conclusion!?).

I have to agree with Harbonite however, that if the Midlands were to be ignored, I would feel more 'at home' being called a southerner.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
25,139
Location
Nottingham
Buxton and Chesterfield are northern because they are within the 'gravitational field' of Manchester / Sheffield; Ashbourne and Belper aren't because they are within Derby's. IMHO :)

I think that's right and reflects the "city region" concept that some people talk about.

For Derbyshire I'd personally draw the boundary between the White Peak and the Dark Peak, going through Castleton and the start of the Pennine Way at Edale. Somewhere north of Mansfield, communities start looking towards Sheffield rather than Nottingham and I'd put the North-Midlands boundary there too, though I don't know enough about the area (or Lincolnshire) to say exactly where.
 

Harbornite

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2016
Messages
3,634
I certainly don't accept that map. Whilst the lack of the Midlands being represented is normally resented by myself, I feel far more annoyed at the fact Worcester has been dumped into the north (how on earth does one come to that conclusion!?).

I have to agree with Harbonite however, that if the Midlands were to be ignored, I would feel more 'at home' being called a southerner.

Good to see someone who agrees, that map was not a good representation of the situation.
 

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
7,398
In simplistic terms draw a line from the Mersey to the Humber and stop at the Scottish border, simples

I would have said north starts roughly along a line from the Dee to the Humber, although a small area north of the Dee is in Wales (due to the Dee having changed its course since the border was first defined.) - finishing at the Scottish border.

I am surprised that the "official" map describes Oxford, Portsmouth & Southampton as being part of "South East". They would be better regarded as part of a "South Central" region.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top