The North of England - where does it start?

[Busaholic]

I'll go with north of the Tamar, and anyone who thinks south of the Tamar is in the soft south should try living here for a while on the average wage for the area.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would say everything north of a line drawn from the mouth of the River Dee to Chester to Sheffield to Doncaster to the Humber Estuary is in the North (at least as far as the Scottish Border anyway, then it's Scotland ) and everything immediately south of that line is the Midlands.

 

[Lankyline]

That's not simple!
You've split Stockport into different regions, your line also relegates, Birkenhead, Chester, Crewe, Altrincham, Sheffiels, Rotergam, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Immingham, & Grimsby which are all officially Northern.
Assuming this is a strait line. Council & Region boundaries are the simplest to use.

Using the pre 74 county boundaries map, the north starts at Lancashire and the old Yorkshire ridings, got to draw a line somewhere

 

[DarloRich]

Using the pre 74 county boundaries map, the north starts at Lancashire and the old Yorkshire ridings, got to draw a line somewhere

I will take that as the line.

I would suggest the Midlands stretch form there to a Wash/Severn line running through Rugby

 

[WestCoast]

I'd say Birmingham has more in common in terms of culture, speech, demographics and how the city feels, with cities like Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool and Newcastle, than it does with major places like Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge, Canterbury, Reading and Plymouth.

I can see your point, but at the same time Birmingham feels very Midlands. I can see the similarities with Manchester on a post-industrial level but I don't agree it shares that "provincial" feel of Northern cities like Sheffield or Leeds.

As for the topic, using the WCML anywhere from the Scottish Border to the Cheshire/Staffordshire border is Northern England, from there to Northamptonshire is Midlands and south of that Southern England. That's the gut feeling I've always had...

 

[cactustwirly]

North of Brum is the North.

 

[Andyjs247]

Yes there is definitely a Midlands. No offense t'anyone oop North, but if there wasn't a Midlands, then I'd rather be lumped in with the South.

North and South are clearly relative. If you're in the south then the Midlands and North are all north. If you're in the north then the Midlands and south are south. Being Midlands born and bred I would say that far from there being some sort of identity crisis, us midlanders are actually quite a versatile lot. I don't really have an accent so I will wear whichever hat suits the situation. I'm happy to be in the North, South or Midlands.

On another note, people claiming that Rugby, Coventry, Corby, Peterborough, Worcester and Hereford are Northern towns are deluded and need to look at map. I'd say that even Derby is hard to classify as Northern, it is really close to the cusp.

I think what you describe there is a linguistic divide. It's quite subtle but there is a divide roughly between areas where people speak in a certain way. A line between where in the south people tend to say "Bath" pronounced with along "a" sound - like Barth - but north of that certain line it would be a short 'a'. It was a bit of a family joke but when my auntie moved away from Birmingham to Worcester her speech changed. And when she came home she got teased about her accent.

The line might be a proxy for North and South. It depends where you start from though.

I define the North as being north of a downward curved line that starts at Chester, passes south of Sheffield, north of Lincoln and ends south of Grimsby. Stoke, Derby and Notts are not included.

Yes I would generally agree with that too. However I'd say Ashbourne feels northern to me despite its proximity to Derby which is more southern. Although Corby I'd say becomes northern due to the Scottish influence. Worcester and Hereford are south.

 

[SS4]

North of Brum is the North.

Wolverhampton and Walsall are in the North?

As a broad idea:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10R2WwpUHdbTzSh1abx40H-Hca7I&usp=sharing

 

[backontrack]

Wolverhampton and Walsall are in the North?

As a broad idea:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10R2WwpUHdbTzSh1abx40H-Hca7I&usp=sharing

I disagree. I don't think that the north is that big.

Here's my definition:

 

[Harbornite]

I disagree. I don't think that the north is that big.

Here's my definition: View attachment 27383

Interesting that Chester isn't included, personally I find it hard to categorise. Other than that, I pretty much agree with that border.

 

[DasLunatic]

Here's my definition of the North/South divide. I've also included my interpretation of the Midlands, too.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yj03wX9pOYtvh4yjI87AMB0pG5o&usp=sharing

 

[Trog]

If you listen to people they start talking funny by Northampton aey up me duck etc., so the border must be somewhere about Roade.

 

[notlob.divad]

To answer the first question. Yes there is a midlands.
Even way back in Anglo Saxon times there was Northumberland, Mercia and Wessex. The borders moved back and forward over time and regions split and rejoined, but culturally there is still 3 distinct divisions in the country: North, Midlands and South, even if the current borders are as fuzzy as they have always been

So where does the North starts or for those of us who live here and our Scottish brothers, End? Well most people seem to agree that the border between Northumberland and Mercia was roughly a line between Goole and Runcorn but occasionally as far south as Whitchurch. It was certainly fluid and definitely isn't a straight line. The Rivers Mersey/Goyt in the West and the Don/Riverlin in the East are probably the best natural dividing lines.

However in modern Britain rivers are very poor dividing lines as our settlements have built up around the crossing points of these natural barriers. So I would tend to agree with those who look towards the Conurbations and developing city regions / Metropolitan areas. The Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield City regions are clearly all Northern. So I would agree with those who separate the North Gritstone (Dark Peak) and the Midlands Limestone (White Peak). Whether Grimsby and Scunthorpe fall on the north of the resulting line I don't know, but Lincoln is definitely the midlands.

Actually the harder border to define has always been that between Mercia and the southern areas of Wessex, Sussex, Essex. In Particular this has always been difficult around the East Anglia area due to its historic separation by the Fens. When viewd historically, the Severn - Wash line is very much a mistake. The Fenlands stretched as far inland as Cambridge and Huntingdon and were always a bit of a no-mans land. So the line should start much further south. Peterborough is definitely the midlands, as is Northampton but Cambridge and Oxford are the South, so the arguments would be over Bedford and Milton Keynes with a line from about there to Chepstow

 

[Butts]

Just to throw a spanner in the works both Carlisle and Berwick upon Tweed were once part of Scotland - Carlisle is not in the Domesday Book.

Cumbria was not part of England , and lets not mention Ystrad Clud or Lord of Light will be crowing from his Welsh redoubt about the fact they used to speak Cumbric (early welsh) in what is now Strathclyde.

Switching to the other side Bernicia used to stretch from the NE of England up to Edinburgh and was an Anglo Saxon set up

So how far back do we want to go !!!

 

[notlob.divad]

So how far back do we want to go !!!

Agreed we could go as far back as we like and put arbitrary lines down and it doesn't really help anyone define anything, because the areas either side of the arbitrary lines often have more in common with each other than they have with their own respective centers. After all, this applies to all human defined constructs:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just to throw a spanner in the works both Carlisle and Berwick upon Tweed were once part of Scotland - Carlisle is not in the Domesday Book.

Cumbria was not part of England , and lets not mention Ystrad Clud or Lord of Light will be crowing from his Welsh redoubt about the fact they used to speak Cumbric (early welsh) in what is now Strathclyde.

Switching to the other side Bernicia used to stretch from the NE of England up to Edinburgh and was an Anglo Saxon set up

So how far back do we want to go !!!

How about looking at the post-Viking invasion of England when much of what we know as "The Midlands" were part of the Danish Kingdom of Mercia and there were five Boroughs of the Danelaw, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln, Nottingham and Stamford, all of which are generally accepted to be in "The Midlands".

 

[ExRes]

How about looking at the post-Viking invasion of England when much of what we know as "The Midlands" were part of the Danish Kingdom of Mercia and there were five Boroughs of the Danelaw, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln, Nottingham and Stamford, all of which are generally accepted to be in "The Midlands".

As you were there at the time we will all have to bow to you on that

 

[Harbornite]

Just to throw a spanner in the works both Carlisle and Berwick upon Tweed were once part of Scotland - Carlisle is not in the Domesday Book.

Cumbria was not part of England , and lets not mention Ystrad Clud or Lord of Light will be crowing from his Welsh redoubt about the fact they used to speak Cumbric (early welsh) in what is now Strathclyde.

Switching to the other side Bernicia used to stretch from the NE of England up to Edinburgh and was an Anglo Saxon set up

So how far back do we want to go !!!

Good points, tis no coincidence that Cumbria and Cymru are similar words.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Good points, tis no coincidence that Cumbria and Cymru are similar words.

It is interesting to note that the area of the Cumberland portion of modern-day Cumbria was still a principality of the Kingdom of Scotland at the time of the Norman invasion of Britain and therefore was not included in the Domesday Book survey of 1086. However, in 1092, a military campaign was waged by the English monarch to regain that territory.

 

[Senex]

It is interesting to note that the area of the Cumberland portion of modern-day Cumbria was still a principality of the Kingdom of Scotland at the time of the Norman invasion of Britain and therefore was not included in the Domesday Book survey of 1086. However, in 1092, a military campaign was waged by the English monarch to regain that territory.

And the territory (re)gained not only formed the County of Cumberland of happy memory but also the new Diocese of Carlisle, where the cathedral was the only one served by Augustinian Canons in the English Church.

On the wider question of the divide, what about the linguistic significance that to a degree survives to this day of the boundary between the Danelaw and the West Saxon dominated part of England? And what about the fact that in linguistic terms in the early part of the Middle English period there was less difference between the form the language recorded from Aberdeenshire and that from near Doncaster than there was between the latter and, say, Peterborough?

 

[CatfordCat]

from a South London perspective, it's simple.

Working from the south, there is

the seaside

the country

the bit where the stockbrokers live

South London

The River

the bit where posh people shop / work

north london (and the less said about it the better)

watford and luton

the north

and then a bit further on, there's Scotland and then the north pole.

 

[SS4]

from a South London perspective, it's simple.

Working from the south, there is

the seaside

the country

the bit where the stockbrokers live

South London

The River

the bit where posh people shop / work

north london (and the less said about it the better)

watford and luton

the north

and then a bit further on, there's Scotland and then the north pole.

Do you work for the DfT per chance?

 

[backontrack]

from a South London perspective, it's simple.

Working from the south, there is

the seaside

the country

the bit where the stockbrokers live

South London

The River

the bit where posh people shop / work

north london (and the less said about it the better)

watford and luton

the north

and then a bit further on, there's Scotland and then the north pole.

Without meaning to offend: you're wrong.

 

[Harbornite]

Without meaning to offend: you're wrong.

Without meaning to offend, I think it's a joke (at least I hope it is)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

from a South London perspective, it's simple.

Working from the south, there is

the seaside

the country

the bit where the stockbrokers live

South London

The River

the bit where posh people shop / work

north london (and the less said about it the better)

watford and luton

the north

and then a bit further on, there's Scotland and then the north pole.

I agree.

And from a north London perspective, it's equally simple . . . . .
there is the view over London from the Heath or Palace or Hill, including the Touristy bit, and beyond that the River, and then the Saaff. After that is the country and the coast. And that's it until you get to France.

That is it, until you turn round and look behind - which is roughly the direction where the north must be, but why would you be looking behind you?

 

[Lankyline]

For complete clarification southern softies start at the home counties everything else above is the north and the true north is Lancashire and as much as it pains me to say it the land to the east inhabited by the Yorkie clans

 

[Butts]

For complete clarification southern softies start at the home counties everything else above is the north and the true north is Lancashire and as much as it pains me to say it the land to the east inhabited by the Yorkie clans

Surely geographically that is utter nonsense unless you have moved Cumberland, Durham, Westmorland and Northumberland into Scotland ?

They are the true north - of England at least

 

[Lankyline]

Surely geographically that is utter nonsense unless you have moved Cumberland, Durham, Westmorland and Northumberland into Scotland ?

They are the true north - of England at least

Whose says I was just talking geographically We were the original powerhouse of the UK with such economic and cultural delights as cotton, dark satanic mills, slavery, railways, coal, uncle joe's mint balls, nutty slack, tripe and of course our own dialect and that's just Lancashire

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whose says I was just talking geographically We were the original powerhouse of the UK with such economic and cultural delights as cotton, dark satanic mills, slavery, railways, coal, uncle joe's mint balls, nutty slack, tripe and of course our own dialect and that's just Lancashire

Out of your list, I have selected the Mike Harding version of "Uncle Joe's Mint Balls", to further educate those who know nowt of Lancashire or even the fact that the currency in Wigan is "The Pie", so here is the first verse and the chorus....

"Now there's a place in Wigan, a place you all should know
A busy little factory where things are all the go
They don't make Jakes or Eccles Cakes or things that stick on walls
But night and day they work away at Uncle Joe's Mint Balls

CHORUS

Uncle Joe's Mint Balls keep you all aglow
Give 'em to your granny and watch the begger go
Away with coughs and sniffles, take a few in hand
Suck 'em and see, you'll agree, they're the best in all the land"

YouTube still has the full version by Mike Harding and the shortened version by the Houghton Weavers to listen to and be culturally enhanced.

 

[Harbornite]

Whose says I was just talking geographically We were the original powerhouse of the UK with such economic and cultural delights as cotton, dark satanic mills, slavery, railways, coal, uncle joe's mint balls, nutty slack, tripe and of course our own dialect and that's just Lancashire

They're the greatest things to come out of the Shire of Lanca.