The Queen's lying in state.

[philjo]

There was mention on the radio over the weekend that the plans had been revised during the Covid restrictions to require prebooked time slots to limit the crowd numbers at any one time, but it looks like this isn’t been implemented.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Portaloos have bene brought into Edinburgh to "service" the needs of the crowds so I am sure the same will happen in London. This has all been planned down to the smallest detail.

I expect the time in the queues to observe the lying in state to be insane. People suggesting 3 or 5 hours are off the mark.

If the numbers required to form a queue of 30 hours turned up then the queues for the toilets would be hours long so they wouldn't be of much use. We will get a better idea of how long the queues are likely to be after the Edinburgh event but if people are basing their guesses on what happened after the Princess of Wales died they are almost certainly way out. The country experienced mass hysteria which certainly hasn't been replicated with the passing of the Queen.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not much apparently if they are expecting hundreds of thousands or millions of people to queue for 30 hours without the use of a toilet or sleep. It's not as though you can pitch a tent in a moving queue.

So whose advice should I take notice of?:

1. Those on the Operation London Bridge Task Force from the Met Police, TfL, government and others who have had years of experience in major events planning (I know some of these people).
2. Bertie the Bus.

 

[James H]

Yes the Government has hired portaloos for the route of the queue along the South Bank and Bankside in London..

 

[sonic2009]

Scotrail look to be operating an hourly service between Edinburgh and Glasgow through Monday night into Tuesday.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-09-13/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The services now appear on RTT.

 

[Bertie the bus]

So whose advice should I take notice of?:

1. Those on the Operation London Bridge Task Force from the Met Police, TfL, government and others who have had years of experience in major events planning (I know some of these people).
2. Bertie the Bus.

You can believe whoever and whatever you want but these alleged estimates of 30 hours have already come down to possibly up to 12.

 

[739678]

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-09-13/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The services now appear on RTT.

The daytime service also appears to have been increased to 4 trains an hour all day on both the route via Falkirk High and Bathgate....

 

[DanNCL]

LNER are running an additional 2130 Edinburgh - Newcastle tonight to get people home from visiting the Queen lying in state.

Realtime Trains | 1Z31 2130 Edinburgh to Newcastle | 12/09/2022

Real-time train running information for 1Z31 2130 departure from Edinburgh to Newcastle on 12/09/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Mathew S]

The Oxford area engineering work has been postponed for the coming weekend. GWR and Chiltern are running, in GWR's words, "a full service," which appears to mean a normal weekend timetable. (Not sure what CrossCountry are doing, but they don't run all the way into London anyway so less important I guess.)

 

[Man_with_beard]

Engineering works too which regularly happen at night.

It's for one night

 

[brad465]

If queues of 30 hours do emerge, I'm going to try and remember that the next time I struggle for motivation for an all day cycle event (i.e. it's better than standing around doing almost nothing and not getting any sleep).

Looking at RTT from a Southeastern perspective, there are 2x services from Charing X-Tunbridge Wells at 01:45 and 03:45 later this week, running semi-fast, so anyone living in Orpington, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge or Tunbridge Wells will be alright if leaving at these times. Victoria has trains to Dartford, Ashford International, Gillingham and Orpington, but they have very select calling patterns that see fewer calls than what the daytime service offers. All the inbound diagrams are empty stock moves, so they're not encouraging joining the queue in the middle of the night.

 

[Dave W]

So whose advice should I take notice of?:

1. Those on the Operation London Bridge Task Force from the Met Police, TfL, government and others who have had years of experience in major events planning (I know some of these people).
2. Bertie the Bus.

If I were you, and I doubt you need me to confirm, I'd go with 1.

As to my credibility, if people do choose to queue, I'll see you in an official capacity somewhere on the route. It might be at Lambeth Bridge (congratulations - you won't be far away). It might be several bridges to the east. Further, in fact, than the one that gave the operation its name. Make sure you wave.

TfL have been quite vague in terms of plans but I would be incredibly surprised if they, and TOCs, aren't running longer than normal, especially as the week wears on.

 

[wilbers]

anyones guess how long the queues will be tomorrow, but I've booked tickets on the earliest train I can get from Penrith at 0759 to arrive at 0938. I'm not a morning person so generally prefer a 10AM start where possible, but getting to Edinburgh at about 1130 would be a bigger gamble and quite likely too late to get through the queue.

 

[sammyg901]

Chiltern have added a limited High Wycombe / Oxford service (in service both ways) out of Marylebone

Limited extras to/from Reading out of Paddington (GWR & Elizabeth line)

 

[deltic]

Queues for the Queen Mother's lying in state were estimated at between 4-6 hrs with 200,000 people attending

 

[Magdalia]

I have been trying to apply the maths of queuing to this.

Queues are determined by two variables, the arrival rate and the processing rate.

I have tried to estimate the processing rate from watching the Edinburgh Vigil on TV. I have estimated 1 person per second as a working assumption. That's 3600 people per hour.

The Edinburgh queue has been estimated at 20000 people and, with a 1 person per second processing rate, someone joining the back of a 20000 queue would face a wait of between 5 and 6 hours. That's broadly consistent with anecdotal evidence from media interviews with people who have attended.

At Westminster, the processing rate is zero until the doors open tomorrow, but people are already arriving to join the queue. The number of people in the queue, and the time they have to wait, will mostly be determined by the length of the queue that has already built up before the doors open. By tomorrow evening we will know that.

The Westminster lying in state is open for 107 hours, which means there is capacity for about 400000 people to file through, based on the 1 person per second assumption. More people can only be accommodated by increasing the processing rate, which would undermine the dignity of the event. Note that 400000 is about double the number estimated for the Queen Mother given above.

I'd expect that, once the doors open, the arrival rate will settle down at something close to the processing rate. Who the 400000 people are will be determined by those prepared to wait the time set by the length of the queue at the start tomorrow.

 

[JonathanH]

The Westminster lying in state is open for 107 hours, which means there is capacity for about 400000 people to file through, based on the 1 person per second assumption.

One person per second is very optimistic given the need to go through security gates, although there were two lines for the Queen Mother in 2002. More than two lines doesn't really work given that is one on each side of the coffin.

 

[Dave W]

Security at the Cromwell Green entrance is more like an airport style setup with several "lanes". They'll be able to process at least 1 a second in my opinion, especially since the restricted items should have been filtered out on the way down the queue so checks should be simple.

Dont forget there will be quite a lot of people in groups too.

I think Magdalia's methodology is sound - but organisers are expecting the queue to start building well in advance of the 1700 start tomorrow (on a pedantic point of order... Is it not 109 hours?)

 

[DarloRich]

Train wise: Get everything that will roll rolling towards London. Run max length trains all day every day. It is going to be a busy weekend and trains are going to be rammed.

 

[infobleep]

Who decides which lines will have extra services? Is it solely on what staff are available? For example, over new year's eve, South Western Railway run overnight trains to Guildford.

Would there be the same demand on trains to Guildford later this week?

Presumably the length of the queue to see the Queen means it's not just whether one travels in the middle of night to join at say 3am, but if, for example they joined early evening and queued long enough to miss the last train home on a normal timetable.

That’s my concern. If I join the queue at say 7:30 pm, what happens if I get through at 1 am? I would expect those queuing earlier to wait longer.

This will be because I can't see so many people joining the queue overnight compared to during the day, so that will help shorten the queue times.

Those involved in the planning of Operation London Bridge and who have been meeting on an almost weekly basis for the past few years. But then what do they know...?

The government Web Site says you may need to queue overnight. Overnight isn't 30 hours so someone or some people have changed their minds.

Her Majesty The Queen's Lying-in-State at the Palace of Westminster (Houses of Parliament)

www.gov.uk

Portaloos have bene brought into Edinburgh to "service" the needs of the crowds so I am sure the same will happen in London. This has all been planned down to the smallest detail.

I expect the time in the queues to observe the lying in state to be insane. People suggesting 3 or 5 hours are off the mark.

I suspect at times it will be longer than 3-5 hours but other times it will be maybe 5 hours.

Hopefully, info on queue times will be available so one can judge when to join if they want to.

You can believe whoever and whatever you want but these alleged estimates of 30 hours have already come down to possibly up to 12.

Indeed they have.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2022 ==

More trains are going to be run on select lines is what is being said. It would be useful to know if all TOCs with services into London are looking into this possibility or just some?

Queen Elizabeth II: Night trains planned for mourners headed to London

A limited service will run through the night on some routes so people can pay their respects to the Queen.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Bald Rick]

Train wise: Get everything that will roll rolling towards London. Run max length trains all day every day. It is going to be a busy weekend and trains are going to be rammed.

Given that Pre-Covid London had, every weekday, roughly around a million commuters arrive in central London by heavy rail each morning peak, and another million in the off peak plus almost the same again on the tube + DLR, dealing with half a million people looking to pay their respects over 4 days is not going to be a major issue. And with Monday being a BH, and most shops / offices / entertainment closed, there will be plenty of space on the trains.

Who decides which lines will have extra services?

The TOCs. Unless they make a silly decision in which case they get overruled. (But the TOCs have been sensible).

Is it solely on what staff are available?

That is an important factor.

 

[DarloRich]

Given that Pre-Covid London had, every weekday, roughly around a million commuters arrive in central London by heavy rail each morning peak, and another million in the off peak plus almost the same again on the tube + DLR, dealing with half a million people looking to pay their respects over 4 days is not going to be a major issue. And with Monday being a BH, and most shops / offices / entertainment closed, there will be plenty of space on the trains.

I hope so! It is more the get away from London/large flows of people at "funny" times that concerns me. People are going to expect to be able to get a train home at silly o'clock after queueing to attend the lying in state.

I have been speaking to my mum and she and some of her friends are intent on going to London to attend. Putting aside how sensible that is at their age ( and don't dare ask what that age is!) they EXPECT to get a train home at whatever hour. They expect the railway to deliver at extraordinary times.

Hoping LNWR remember they are allowed to run 12 car trains

 

[infobleep]

Details of the lying in state can be found at the link below. The Department of Media Culture and Sport will be posting queue waiting time updates to their social media accounts and links are contained on the web page. The route goes as far back as Albert bridge but no idea if they will need to go that far back.

Her Majesty The Queen's Lying-in-State at the Palace of Westminster (Houses of Parliament)

www.gov.uk

As for the trains. Perhaps it will be like the Olympics. Later trains but tell people it will be very busy and in reality, it won't be.

If the queue times were 4 hours I'd do it but if they were any longer, I probably would get stuck in London. This is based on when I will be in London with time to do it.

 

[wilbers]

I got lucky with my timing in Edinburgh and got through the queue in 2 hours - 45 minutes after I joined the queue I know it had become quite a lot longer (and indeed was chatting with someone in the crowd later who didn't get into the cathedral at all). I was also chatting with someone on the train back who had queued from 9pm Monday evening and didn't get through until 2AM - when I arrived the end part of the queue was just the full length of the park (that bit took about 20 minutes to get through), when the queue was longer it doubled-back on itself and went back and forth across the park a few times - I expect this is part of the plan in London as well since the official start of the queue is in a park.

 

[didcotdean]

Advice being given on electronic signs outside of Reading Station is to travel on the Elizabeth line for London for the best chance of getting a seat.

 

[Starmill]

Advice being given on electronic signs outside of Reading Station is to travel on the Elizabeth line for London for the best chance of getting a seat.

That's a bit random because the Elizabeth line trains really don't have many seats. I would have thought that a GWR stopping service, or a Newbury to London service, would have more seat availability.

 

[Mojo]

The route goes as far back as Albert bridge but no idea if they will need to go that far back.

Albert Bridge is to the west; the queue once it has crossed the river at Lambeth Bridge will actually be coming from the east.

 

[Dave W]

The current queue is at Blackfriars Bridge (Road) - but there are several gluts to follow - people finishing work, and those going straight from precession to queue.

The route starts in Tower Gardens (in a theme park queue format) - before heading across Lambeth Bridge, back along Albert Embankment and thence across the South Bank

 

[didcotdean]

That's a bit random because the Elizabeth line trains really don't have many seats. I would have thought that a GWR stopping service, or a Newbury to London service, would have more seat availability.

I suppose it is just because they start from there. There were plenty of seats on the stopping service I arrived from Didcot on.

 

[E27007]

Engineering works too which regularly happen at night.

By last Sunday, a considerable number of Engineering Possessions scheduled for the forthcoming weekend were cancelled, I hear there will be more cancellations affecting Thursday/Friday night, and Monday/Tuesday too.
The Railway is taking the needs of passengers to and from the Funeral for the Queen very seriously.