The real facts behind the ATW potential strike please

[Greenback]

I don't know whether that is an accurate figure of what is on offer, or what other changes ar einvolved, so I hesitate to say whether I consider it good compensation! AIUI, it's also a 12% rise over more than one year?

 

[nedchester]

I'd take 12% as pretty good compensation. Thats more than 10x the going rate for most other grades.

Exactly and lets face it drivers wages since privatisation have rocketed compared to pre privatisation...........

 

[Flamingo]

Well, the bottom line is that the drivers do not consider 12% (over two years, ISTR) is not sufficient to compensate them for the loss of flexibility over Sundays.

The opinions of others are not really relevant to them.

The RMT rejected the proposal for FGW guards to work Sundays as the company was not offering anything like the money that was offered to Drivers for the same concession. My Sundays as as important to me as to my driver colleagues, why should I be prepared to give them up for a lot less, putting it bluntly.

 

[GB]

Exactly and lets face it drivers wages since privatisation have rocketed compared to pre privatisation...........

Indeed they have. But considering pay and conditions were worse than crap pre privatisation its hardly suprising and has little to do with anything these days anyway.

 

[TDK]

90% of workers who work Sundays and bank holidays get double pay - on the railway it is basic pay, I have worked both Sundays in the working week and Sundays not in the working week and to me it was not much different to be honest as I always worked my volutary rostered Sundays, if I wanted the Sunday off I would swap with someone else who wanted to work it. However if Sundays are in the working week and the TOC honours their 35 hour a week policy that means more free days and the need for more drivers but most tocs don't keep to the 35 hour a week policy when they offer Sundays in the working week for obvious reasons.

 

[313103]

How do those who work for the police, fire service, ambulance, power workers, doctors, nurses, telecommunications etc manage then? Sorry but if you work for a 24/7 operation then you should expect that you might be required to work on Sundays.

I appreciate the family argument (I have kids) but I have CHOSEN to work in a job that doesn't operate on Sundays. Railway workers have. Sounds harsh but that's the reality.

Have you read the thread my dear friend? The reason why i have to ask is that your coming out with the same old, same old argument! I work in a industry where it runs 24/7, yet when i joined on 30 June 1980 i was given the option to opt out on Sundays COMPRENDE! This i have used on and off since i joined and still can. At the moment i have opted out.

You see that is the reality as well, work in 24/7 indudtry and still have the option to opt out of Sunday work.

Your argument about other industries does not wash either because when those staff applied for the job they knew already that Sunday work is a requirement, for us oldies in the rail industry we had and in some cases still have the option to work or not work on a Sunday and if what the company offers is not good enough for me to surrender my sunday option (we all have price as some would say) i will retain that option.

For me to surrender my Sundays i would want a minimum of £5,000 per annum based on future and not current diagrams. I also know the company will offer me no where near that figure.

A lot of people on here will say that i am being greedy, Currently my roster says i work one Sunday in 6, not bad you might say, but from May the company want to run a Saturday style service in other words doubling the amount of services, previously 2 trains on hour to 4 trains an hour. This will require me to work in future of a Sunday work every other week so a minimum of half of the amount of the 52 Sundays that you get in a year. Also when Sundays have become part of the working week the current enhancement you get is automatically withdrawn.

 

[Pacerpilot]

Exactly and lets face it drivers wages since privatisation have rocketed compared to pre privatisation...........

Have you ever considered applying to become a Driver? You seem to grind the salary/Sundays axe whenever posts like this appear. I dont bleat and whinge about your weekends off or Six weeks off for the Summer. Why? Because that was what you expected when you took the job, just like I knew Id be getting a good salary and my Sundays off.

 

[Maxfly]

The Sundays worknig is a sticky point, as some above have worked in the industry for many years with the sunday being optional as it were it to be changed on them is not fair. I personally have always worked sundays and tbh would hate to work a 9-5 'normal' working week. I have a young family and would still hate to do 'normal' working, i get more free time on shifts and more wonga lol
Now having the option of saying no to a sunday is something i think i have used once, but to me is part of my working week and tbh doesn't bother me one jot
I am probably on slightly the wrong vein but would guess most that do not want sundays are older/more time served??!?!
Yes the 'headline' figure of 12% sounds great but the other tie ons seem to make this not the point which is fair enough

 

[nedchester]

Have you ever considered applying to become a Driver? You seem to grind the salary/Sundays axe whenever posts like this appear. I dont bleat and whinge about your weekends off or Six weeks off for the Summer. Why? Because that was what you expected when you took the job, just like I knew Id be getting a good salary and my Sundays off.

Actually I have considered it but there are not many TOCs willing to take someone off the street and train them up these days. Also I am probably too old at 48 for a TOC to want to take on board.

The thing is schools are not open more than 195 days a year and never have been. The railways on the other hand operate most days of the year and always have.

I do of course work Weekends/Holidays as I have to to do my job effectively (I did 4 hours this morning). Not complaining but there you go.

I will say that moving Sundays into the working week should be negotiated properly by both sides but it should be the norm within any industry that offers a 24/7 service.

 

[313103]

I am probably on slightly the wrong vein but would guess most that do not want sundays are older/more time served??!?!
Yes the 'headline' figure of 12% sounds great but the other tie ons seem to make this not the point which is fair enough

You are right to a point, most would work Sundays if the remuneration was right, the problem is that the rail companies want i one size fits all, where as indivduals who choose not to work Sundays have their own reasons. I choose not to work Sundays when the company decided to reduce the amount of rostered Sundays from 1 in every 4 to 1 in every 6. But as i have said from May the company want me to work 2 in 4.

 

[Greenback]

12% over two years with inflation rising may not be as good as the media makes it sound anyway, even without any other strings!

When it comes to working Sundays, every employee's perspective will be slightly different, based on their individual circumstances. A single driver of 23 will probably have different priorities to a 35 year old with 3 young children, and someone coming up to retirement. Each of those may want, or not want to work Sundays based on many different reasons, overall it should be the views of tha majority that carry the day!

 

[Pacerpilot]

Actually I have considered it but there are not many TOCs willing to take someone off the street and train them up these days. Also I am probably too old at 48 for a TOC to want to take on board.

I will say that moving Sundays into the working week should be negotiated properly by both sides but it should be the norm within any industry that offers a 24/7 service.

48? Still a spring chicken... There were chaps a good bit older than yourself on my course...
Sunday working was never an issue under BR due the far lower pay. People would work every hour they could, plus all the mileage/DOO 'fiddles' in order to up the salary. The Optional Sunday contracts were born out of Privatisation but with Sundays seemingly becoming a regular working day in many industries, particularly retail, Its plain to see why the TOCs are keen to change current practice.

Apologies if my post sounded a little harsh, its just that I regularly hear the why wont you work Sundays/You lot are paid too much arguments and often invite people to try their hand, as it were.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Yes - But the RMT are also calling for strike action as well

Well of course they are for 2 simple points, alot of drivers will be RMT members who would expect the RMT to back them and secondly it would give them more weight in future negotiations, as I have said before I don't begrudge the drivers their wage, of course not, but the gap between the guards and drivers wage is now becoming a not funny joke, as safetywise the two are on a par (yes I know drivers need to know more about different aspects etc.) but still there are not many drivers that I know that would agree on the pay gap between the 2 grades

 

[Maxfly]

You are right to a point, most would work Sundays if the remuneration was right, the problem is that the rail companies want i one size fits all, where as indivduals who choose not to work Sundays have their own reasons. I choose not to work Sundays when the company decided to reduce the amount of rostered Sundays from 1 in every 4 to 1 in every 6. But as i have said from May the company want me to work 2 in 4.

That is a fair change in the amount of rostered sundays. I work that amount the now but we still have the option of turning them down if we wish as long as cover can be found it is fine. But to change from what your currently on to what they want is a big jump tbh

 

[nedchester]

48? Still a spring chicken... There were chaps a good bit older than yourself on my course...
Sunday working was never an issue under BR due the far lower pay. People would work every hour they could, plus all the mileage/DOO 'fiddles' in order to up the salary. The Optional Sunday contracts were born out of Privatisation but with Sundays seemingly becoming a regular working day in many industries, particularly retail, Its plain to see why the TOCs are keen to change current practice.

I am surprised they took people on that old? I remember seeing a programme on the TV a while back about an ex teacher who jacked in the job to drive for Great Western and loved it. It did make me think and still does. I do look occasionally have a look at the careers pages of Merseyrail/ATW/Northern to have a look and decide if I want a career change but not seen anything yet.......still time though by the looks of things!

Have to say it really wouldn't bother me to work Sundays as long as I got time off at other times in the week (35 hr week and all that). The pay is comparable to what I am doing now as well.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Have you read the thread my dear friend? The reason why i have to ask is that your coming out with the same old, same old argument! I work in a industry where it runs 24/7, yet when i joined on 30 June 1980 i was given the option to opt out on Sundays COMPRENDE! This i have used on and off since i joined and still can. At the moment i have opted out.

You see that is the reality as well, work in 24/7 indudtry and still have the option to opt out of Sunday work.

Your argument about other industries does not wash either because when those staff applied for the job they knew already that Sunday work is a requirement, for us oldies in the rail industry we had and in some cases still have the option to work or not work on a Sunday and if what the company offers is not good enough for me to surrender my sunday option (we all have price as some would say) i will retain that option.

For me to surrender my Sundays i would want a minimum of £5,000 per annum based on future and not current diagrams. I also know the company will offer me no where near that figure.

A lot of people on here will say that i am being greedy, Currently my roster says i work one Sunday in 6, not bad you might say, but from May the company want to run a Saturday style service in other words doubling the amount of services, previously 2 trains on hour to 4 trains an hour. This will require me to work in future of a Sunday work every other week so a minimum of half of the amount of the 52 Sundays that you get in a year. Also when Sundays have become part of the working week the current enhancement you get is automatically withdrawn.

I am on your side on this one..HOWEVER, you can guarantee that someone, somewhere, somehow will find a way to force this onto people, personally I don't mind working Sundays, I have 3 kids of varying ages but always try to find time where I can to spend and do things with them so they just don't see their old man working constantly, but the way the nature of the railway is going Sundays are becoming more and more busy, now it is time for the TOC's to bite the bullet and offer a very fair trade off without all the extra t&c changes and get it done. people will always see train crew as greedy, personally thats an issue that they have to deal with, the only issue I am worried about is whats right for my family and myself, and i'll be damned before I will put anyone or anything before that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am surprised they took people on that old? I remember seeing a programme on the TV a while back about an ex teacher who jacked in the job to drive for Great Western and loved it. It did make me think and still does. I do look occasionally have a look at the careers pages of Merseyrail/ATW/Northern to have a look and decide if I want a career change but not seen anything yet.......still time though by the looks of things!

Have to say it really wouldn't bother me to work Sundays as long as I got time off at other times in the week (35 hr week and all that). The pay is comparable to what I am doing now as well.

age discrimination is illegal. Northern employ many drivers/guards in their late 40's, if you are qualified and possess whats needed they will employ you.

 

[whoosh]

There are three types of Sunday working on the railway:

Voluntary - you have 'booked Sundays' in the roster, but if you don't want to work one of these you can opt out in writing with so many days notice. It's then the roster clerks job to find someone else who is willing to come in to work it. There are normally plenty of volunteers and it works well the vast majority of the time. Only when goodwill is lost does it become an issue.
This type of Sunday working is outside of the working week, i.e. the hours contracted to work (normally an average of 35, but depends on the company) have already been worked during the rest of the week.
Companies with this arrangement include: First Capital Connect, East Midlands Trains (drivers and most senior conductors), and the Western side (former FNW) of Northern.


Committed Sundays - you have 'booked Sundays' in the roster, but if you don't want to work one of these it's up to you to find someone to do it for you. I think this is the worst out of the three arrangements from an employee point of view, as you cannot use annual leave as Sundays are purely an overtime day, so if you can't find anyone to work your Sunday you're going to be working enforced overtime.
From a company point of view, this is the most attractive as it means that all the jobs will be covered even if goodwill is lost, and a seven day week railway can still be run with only the number of staff for a six day week (unlike the Police and Fire service who have Sundays in the working week). Staff won't get sick pay if they are off on a Sunday. Basically the company has all the benefits and the staff don't get a day off in the week to compensate, and are potentially forced to come in on a day outside of their working week.
Companies with this arrangement include: Arriva Cross Country, Virgin West Coast, Train Managers and On-Board Staff at East Midlands Trains.


Sundays in the working week - The working week includes Sunday, and so the 35 hours (or whatever the working week is at each particular company - SWT is 37 I think, for example) is spread out throughout the week. This needs more staff as either the turns of duty will be shorter or more rest days will have to given on weekdays instead, to compensate for a Sunday worked. Sometimes a combination of the two.
If you want a Sunday off you can apply for annual leave, or swap a weeks work with someone else. You have to work all the other Sundays you are bokked to work.
Companies with this arrangement include: London Underground, London Overground, East Coast, Transpennine Express, South West Trains, SouthEastern, Grand Central, Hull Trains, Eurostar, and all the Freight companies. Also, pretty much every organisation outside the railway which runs a seven-day-a-week operation tends to employ enough staff for seven days, rather than only six days and rely on overtime (voluntary or forced) for the seventh.


The voluntary system is in operation at ATW at the moment, but I don't know which of the other two is in the pay offer proposed.
Inflation is currently 5.1%, if it's 5.1% next year as well then that's 10.46% for the two years. Is having big changes to your terms and conditions (remember this might not only be changes to Sunday working - there's probably other 'strings') worth just over 1.5%?

 

[Pacerpilot]

Its Committed Sundays that are proposed in the ATW deal

 

[whoosh]

Yeah, I wouldn't fancy Committed Sundays. What if they want to increase the number of turns on Sundays? Got you then haven't they? Perhaps someone else would've worked your Sunday, but now they have their own booked Sunday to work instead!
I'd have voted no if it was me. Back to the negotiating table please!

 

[nedchester]

Yeah, I wouldn't fancy Committed Sundays. What if they want to increase the number of turns on Sundays? Got you then haven't they? Perhaps someone else would've worked your Sunday, but now they have their own booked Sunday to work instead!
I'd have voted no if it was me. Back to the negotiating table please!

Do you know something, I agree. I think it should be the Sundays in the working week for the reasons stated above. My take is that as long as you don't end up working more than you did in the past overall then what's the problem?

 

[Greenback]

Thanks for the post whoosh, it has confirmed what I thought. The advantages to ATW are greater than the benefits to the employees. Plus committed Sundays will bring them in line with AXC.

You are also correct in saying that other orgnaisations outside of the railway do tend to either employ suffieicnt numbers to allow for a 4 or 5 out 7 day rolling roster, or rely on voluntary working, rather than trying to force people to work extra hours over and above their contracted ones.

 

[GB]

Do you know something, I agree. I think it should be the Sundays in the working week for the reasons stated above. My take is that as long as you don't end up working more than you did in the past overall then what's the problem?

Clearly you either haven't read the passed upteen posts or haven't grasped the concept of sunday working.

Sundays outside the working week either equals a pretty much guaranteed day off on the weekends or where worked, a significant source of overtime.

Sunday in the working week removes the day off and removes that source of overtime. You really think staff should give that up for bugger all?

(my bold)

 

[Tom B]

The thing is schools are not open more than 195 days a year and never have been. The railways on the other hand operate most days of the year and always have.

Point of order. Schools are not open FOR STUDENTS for more than 195 days per year but, particularly at larger schools, there are staff in during the holidays, although rarely teachers.

I will say that moving Sundays into the working week should be negotiated properly by both sides but it should be the norm within any industry that offers a 24/7 service.

I agree.

age discrimination is illegal.

Unless it's done on the grounds of young age!

For what it's worth, I've worked Sundays and was very happy with it. I worked every other weekend, and had time off in the week instead, which is far more useful - shops, banks etc are all open, whereas with a Sunday off you're much more restricted in what you can do.

 

[whoosh]

Clearly you either haven't read the passed upteen posts or haven't grasped the concept of sunday working.

Sundays outside the working week either equals a pretty much guaranteed day off on the weekends or where worked, a significant source of overtime.

Sunday in the working week removes the day off and removes that source of overtime. You really think staff should give that up for bugger all?

(my bold)

Yes as GB says here, it's quite complicated. I personally (as would most I would say) prefer the voluntary system, which is currently in place at ATW, and also at the company where I work as well. It means you can have a Sunday off if you want, quite flexibly actually - it's one in three Sundays were I work, but I once worked just over twenty one year. A few extra and also had five Sundays off where I had other things on. All arranged easily by writing notes to the roster clerk, "I am available for an extra Sunday/I am not available for my booked Sunday." People are reluctant to give up this flexibility of part of their weekends, because as someone else has mentioned, working shifts can be a right pain sometimes with fitting in around friends and family. Others like the overtime which is available which is another factor.

Sundays in the working week would be my next choice as you get a day off in the week to compensate. It also means that a Sunday where you don't work is now a proper Rest Day. If it isn't grouped with other days and stands alone as a single day off, it means a minimum of 32 hours off from when you book off from duty from the day before until you book on again on the Monday. Sundays outside of the working week do not have this restriction as the Sunday isn't a Rest Day, you're just 'not required', so you can end up finishing at 03:00 Sunday morning (from your Saturday evening shift) and be back at 04:00 or whatever on Monday morning. Try getting two decent nights sleep in that time! So sometimes a Sunday off under this system isn't really a quality day off - it's a zombie day! Companies with Sundays in the working week tend to have a more circadian roster, but this can mean changes from afternoons to nights etc. take place during the week rather than at weekends. There's no flexibility in the Sundays you have off apart from the possibilities of annual leave or swapping a weeks' work with someone.


It looks as though ATW want to increase services on Sundays, but don't want to recruit the numbers of drivers needed to put Sundays in the working week and resource it properly. They look to be pushing for Committed Sundays which gives them all the benefits of running the service on overtime, and the employees all the downsides.

 

[Tom B]

Is it not possible for staff to swap duties between themselves? I believe LU allow this, so long as all parties are in agreement and it doesn't breach their working time rules. Surely, then, the flexibility you describe (being able to work/not work Sundays, so long as overall there exist sufficient drivers to run the service) still exists, it just means the onus is more on the driver than the roster clerk.

 

[Flamingo]

Is it not possible for staff to swap duties between themselves? I believe LU allow this, so long as all parties are in agreement and it doesn't breach their working time rules. Surely, then, the flexibility you describe (being able to work/not work Sundays, so long as overall there exist sufficient drivers to run the service) still exists, it just means the onus is more on the driver than the roster clerk.

That was scenario B by Woosh above. It is the preferred option for the company, as the individual involved has to do all the work, and the company do not have to employ extra staff to cover the Sundays, which they would have to do if they implemented a true 5 day week.

 

[whoosh]

Yes swapping would be fine as you say, but it seems like a lot of extra hassle to me. The Train Managers where I work have Committed Sundays and leave begging letters up for each other asking for their Sunday turns to be covered. Sometimes it's bad luck if it's a crap duty.

With Sundays in the working week it's fairer as if you've put in for annual leave, it's done on first come first served with the top x number of people guaranteed the day off. Whoever is rostered spare will get your job like on weekdays. If your job has been amended due to engineering works and is now a rubbish turn, it's covered! With Committed Sundays you could find yourself stuck finding someone to cover it if this has happened as amendments can happen at fairly short notice.

With voluntary Sundays the roster clerk might split the duty giving two shorter pieces of work which could better suit the volunteers available.



London Underground staff do swap, although they have Sundays in the working week, so it's slightly different as they are not asking each other to work an extra day as overtime, just different days.



ALSO, once Committed Sundays are in - that's it! You'll never go back to the voluntary ways of the past, but IMPORTANTLY, you'll NEVER be able to get the benefits of Sundays in the working week (like sick pay for Sundays, a more circadian roster, more people in employment, and not being forced to work overtime), as the company will have got everything it wants from Committed Sundays and there won't be any incentive for it whatsoever to change. This is why it's so important to people, because if change is going to happen regarding their conditions, it needs to be done in the right way.

 

[tbtc]

That was scenario B by Woosh above. It is the preferred option for the company, as the individual involved has to do all the work, and the company do not have to employ extra staff to cover the Sundays, which they would have to do if they implemented a true 5 day week.

If there was a "five day week" for staff, presumably the TOC would need extra staff to cover the midweek days (which staff working five days including a Sunday weren't working)?

I appreciate both sides of the argument, and I also appreciate that both sides will never agree in the short or medium term, but its regrettable in 2011 that my chances of getting a train on a Sunday (one of the busiest days of the week for long distance travel in the UK) depend on whether staff want to do overtime or not. I'm not trying to take sides, but it seems such a shame that the TOC and employees can't agree to a fixed level of staffing on a normal Sunday.

 

[313103]

There are three types of Sunday working on the railway:

VoluntaryLondon Overground Conductors, Station Staff and Engineering Staff

Sundays in the working week London Overground Drivers.

London Overground wanted this in for Drivers, however for all other staff they wanted what they inherited. So Mr Nedchester it is not always the staff that don't want Sundays in the working week, in London Overgrounds case it is the Management.

 

[gondukin]

I am not sure if I can rely on the BBC on this occasion but I am wondering, what is the real issues behind the ATW strike.

Are drivers seriously asking for a 12% pay rise over 2 years?

Taking their pay (Or I assume the top level for drivers) to just under 40k?

I can't see this having been posted previously in the thread...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=572155&postcount=27

Year 1
Basic rate increase of 3.7%
Addl payment of 0.8% for introduction of cross cover agreement
Addl payment of 2.5% for committed sundays (No commitment at present)
Sunday booking on payment to be abolished. Sunday pay to be time and a quarter. (At present sunday pay is flat rate plus the booking on payment)

Year 2
4.0% or May 2011 RPI whichever is the greater.

The above has not been voted on by ASLEF members yet. ATW Company council has advised acceptance.

Looks like aslef drivers have changed their minds on the deal, perhaps due to RMT drivers refusing it?

While I can understand drivers not being happy about committed Sundays (I don't like the sound of that myself), can't they take action without bringing the whole network to a halt, e.g. work to rule, and maybe only cover approx half the services on Sundays? This would drag down Arriva's performance so they got pentalties or had to start refunding season ticket holders, but people could largely still get where they wanted, albeit on less frequent, more crowded services.

Admittedly I don't normally catch the train on a Sunday so having any action then suits me to a T