The sooner the laws change on railway ticketing issues the better.

[shredder1]

Interesting to see the opinions of others on this issue, times have certainly changed, thanks Mod.

 

[najaB]

So you are relying on the customer to perform a pretty complex task, using software with no authentication on the input.

I'm sorry, did I read that correctly? Transcribing three letters and four digits (they're on the photocard) is a complex task that we can't expect a typical adult to complete successfully?

And, pray tell, what authentication could the system perform that would be more effective than the user comparing the number on the screen and the number on their card?

 

[185]

Certainly wouldn't call this a 'good catch' as per the OP's comment. It is at best a technical breach. A good catch is a fake or altered ticket.


[edited - some mistake led to this thread referencing with one about railcard numbers]

 

[najaB]

Does make me wonder, how long have we asked for railcard numbers for, now?

Hmm.. let's think:

I know season tickets numbers have been asked for since the dawn of time.

That's right, always. The OP (of the original thread) was purchasing a seven-day season ticket and guessed at their photocard number.

Would not surprise me if in years to come a prosecution for inputting a fraudulent shoe size is posted on here. :P

Do you know of any ticket type that requires the purchaser's shoe size?

 

[DaleCooper]

As the title of this thread is "The sooner the laws change on railway ticketing issues the better." I wonder if anyone can suggest how a new law might be framed in a way that they consider fair to honest travellers without providing loopholes for the dishonest ones.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you know of any ticket type that requires the purchaser's shoe size?

Perhaps a ticket from Sole Street to Shoeburyness via Bootle.

 

[talldave]

I completely agree with the OPs opinion in regard to treating someone as a criminal for mistyping a few numbers.

How this can be enforced is beyond me, when there is no authentication on the numbers. The customer can type any number. So you are relying on the customer to perform a pretty complex task, using software with no authentication on the input. Then treating the customer as a criminal for typing in the wrong number.

Madness. But I expect it from the UK railways sadly.

A simple check digit on the end of the number would eliminate 90% of erroneous input. Royal Mail signed for numbers use one as do credit card numbers, so it's easily done.

The system with no check digit(s) was presumably implemented before TVMs were around so there was no need to worry about mistyped numbers. Now the world has changed and the industry should adapt to the new use cases for the number.

 

[dviner]

It would be better if the TVMs had a barcode reader - they could scan the photocard, killing two birds with one stone: getting the number right, ensuring that the purchaser has the photocard (without which, the season ticket is invalid).

 

[najaB]

It would be better if the TVMs had a barcode reader - they could scan the photocard, killing two birds with one stone: getting the number right, ensuring that the purchaser has the photocard (without which, the season ticket is invalid).

There are circumstances where someone may wish to purchase a season ticket without the photocard - it's rare, I admit, but not unknown. For example, I'm off work on the Friday but want to buy it in advance to save time on Monday morning. I pop down to my local station and forget to bring my photocard, but I know the number. The system would need to still allow this.

 

[6Gman]

Moderator's note: split from What am I being Prosecuted for?

What a way to treat a genuine customer, the guy makes a mistake and is potentially turned into a criminal, the sooner the laws change on issues like this the better.

The terms and conditions require him to enter his reference into the TVM.

He failed to do so.

End of.

(And it's very, very unlikely to turn him into a "criminal".)

 

[rs101]

As the title of this thread is "The sooner the laws change on railway ticketing issues the better." I wonder if anyone can suggest how a new law might be framed in a way that they consider fair to honest travellers without providing loopholes for the dishonest ones.

Here's one.
Removal of the ability for an authorised employee to give verbal authorisation to travel other than in accordance with the ticket held.. Require the TOC to issue supporting documentation of some kind (either printed or SMS/email) whenever permission to override the ticket conditions is granted.

That'd eliminate the 'man on the platform told me' type situations which seems to be a mix of chancers and genuinely misled honest travellers.

 

[shredder1]

On reflection maybe we should just throw everone in prison who buys a ticket, cut the middleman out,

 

[najaB]

Here's one.
Removal of the ability for an authorised employee to give verbal authorisation to travel other than in accordance with the ticket held.

That's policy, not law. The law is completely silent on what form authority to travel takes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On reflection maybe we should just throw everone in prison who buys a ticket, cut the middleman out,

There are something like 1.5 billion journeys made by rail each year in the UK. How many do you think result in prosecutions?

 

[6Gman]

There are something like 1.5 billion journeys made by rail each year in the UK. How many do you think result in prosecutions?

I'm assuming shredder was being lighthearted (the smiley was a clue).

The reality, of course, is that imprisonment for ticket offences is ... vanishingly small? Unknown?

 

[PhilipRhayader]

I do think there is a (potentially) serious problem for the occasional rail traveller. I only make about half a dozen regular trips a year (MetroCentre-Carlisle, Durham-Kings Cross and Paddington-Redruth) and there are things I'm completely unaware of - I should add that I always book my tickets in advance.

For example, I have absolutely no idea when I've been in either a compulsory ticket area or a non-compulsory ticket area.

The only time I recall seeing any notice reminding passengers that they needed a valid ticket for the train they were boarding or they might face a fine was at Sheffield when I had to make a trip to Manchester and was unsure where to go on the platform so took a bit more notice than I would at the stations I'm pretty familiar with.

And yes, I have heard warning announcements at some stations and on trains but there's no certainty of the clarity.

 

[shredder1]

That's policy, not law. The law is completely silent on what form authority to travel takes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are something like 1.5 billion journeys made by rail each year in the UK. How many do you think result in prosecutions?

Doh, its a joke mate, but seriously I can`t help but feel the balance is wrong

 

[najaB]

Doh, its a joke mate, but seriously I can`t help but feel the balance is wrong

I know it wasn't a serious suggestion but the point I'm making is that prosecutions and attempted prosecutions are rare compared to the vast number of journeys made. Sometimes things go wrong, and sometimes people in TOCs abuse their powers. But any laws/rules that have teeth come with the potential to be abused.

To repeat a question that's been asked in this thread but not yet answered: what is the 'right' balance that be fairer on those who make genuine mistakes and still allow TOCs to be robust in their revenue protection activities?

 

[DaleCooper]

Doh, its a joke mate, but seriously I can`t help but feel the balance is wrong

Without knowing the numbers how can you judge the balance to be wrong? You shouldn't form a view based on this forum where naturally we only hear about it when things go badly for rail users.

 

[miami]

A change to the law that I would support:

By all means bring passengers up in court or fine them (in effect by removing the ticket, or via penalty fakes, or out of court settlements) for a breach of regulations like the OP's mistyped photocard number.

However the same should apply to railway staff like the case of Via Bank, or the cases of rail staff refusing to let you pass through barriers despite holding a valid ticket, or delaying your travel and interviewing you and issuing you with an errant fare notice despite having a valid ticket.

 

[shredder1]

Without knowing the numbers how can you judge the balance to be wrong? You shouldn't form a view based on this forum where naturally we only hear about it when things go badly for rail users.

Well Dale I`ll leave it to those who know better, I`m no master debater, its just an opinion mate based on how many things I hear go wrong these days, and I`ve been roaming the silver rails since 1957, and seen a few changes over the years, but hey what do I know, lol
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A change to the law that I would support:

By all means bring passengers up in court or fine them (in effect by removing the ticket, or via penalty fakes, or out of court settlements) for a breach of regulations like the OP's mistyped photocard number.

However the same should apply to railway staff like the case of Via Bank, or the cases of rail staff refusing to let you pass through barriers despite holding a valid ticket, or delaying your travel and interviewing you and issuing you with an errant fare notice despite having a valid ticket.

Well said Paul.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know it wasn't a serious suggestion but the point I'm making is that prosecutions and attempted prosecutions are rare compared to the vast number of journeys made. Sometimes things go wrong, and sometimes people in TOCs abuse their powers. But any laws/rules that have teeth come with the potential to be abused.

To repeat a question that's been asked in this thread but not yet answered: what is the 'right' balance that be fairer on those who make genuine mistakes and still allow TOCs to be robust in their revenue protection activities?

Good post mate, what is the right balance is a very good question and I have absolutely no idea, but I sometimes feel the balance may need addressing by those of great knowledge in these things, from my own humble view possibly better staff training dare I say?.

 

[najaB]

However the same should apply to railway staff like the case of Via Bank, or the cases of rail staff refusing to let you pass through barriers despite holding a valid ticket, or delaying your travel and interviewing you and issuing you with an errant fare notice despite having a valid ticket.

I wholeheartedly believe there should be some recompense when matters proceed past the initial letters stage and are then dropped. I'm curious, though, how you propose that inspectors determine the validity of a passenger's ticket without questioning them?

 

[shredder1]

I wholeheartedly believe there should be some recompense when matters proceed past the initial letters stage and are then dropped, I'm curious how you propose that inspectors determine the validity of a passenger's ticket without questioning them?

Oh they must question them of course, but yes I do agree with you. The ticketing system however is so complex these days, even we cranks get it wrong at the times, its no wonder genuine and honest members of the general public sometimes fall foul of it.

 

[DaleCooper]

its just an opinion mate based on how many things I hear go wrong these days.

How many millions of journeys pass off without a hitch? If you base your opinion only on the bad things you hear without considering the vast majority which are satisfactory then you're likely to come to the wrong conclusion.

 

[shredder1]

How many millions of journeys pass off without a hitch? If you base your opinion only on the bad things you hear without considering the vast majority which are satisfactory then you're likely to come to the wrong conclusion.

I`m sure your right, lol

 

[185]

Hmm.. let's think:
That's right, always. The OP (of the original thread) was purchasing a seven-day season ticket and guessed at their photocard number.
Do you know of any ticket type that requires the purchaser's shoe size?

Mix up with this one.

With the post being split then moved, it seemed to have come from a different on regarding a railcard number.

 

[DaleCooper]

I`m sure your right, lol

My right what? Incidentally, please don't call me Lol.

 

[Fare-Cop]

How many millions of journeys pass off without a hitch? If you base your opinion only on the bad things you hear without considering the vast majority which are satisfactory then you're likely to come to the wrong conclusion.

Spot on - it's a case of the oft-quoted maxim regarding the press - only the bad news makes headlines.

 

[sheff1]

I'm curious, though, how you propose that inspectors determine the validity of a passenger's ticket without questioning them?

Why on earth should an inspector need to question a passenger to determine the validity of a ticket? The validity of a ticket is determined primarily by a combination the Routeing Guide and, unless they are Anytime tickets, the Restriction Code associated with the ticket. Comprehensive information on both is available via a few clicks of a mouse or taps on a screen and that is how inspectors should determine validity. TOCs should not be allowed to get away with failing to provide their staff with access to the required information.

 

[6Gman]

To repeat a question that's been asked in this thread but not yet answered: what is the 'right' balance that be fairer on those who make genuine mistakes and still allow TOCs to be robust in their revenue protection activities?

I think a consistent approach across the country and TOCs would be helpful.

If I'm running late and dash through the (not always manned) barriers at Crewe I can find the following approaches:

Virgin will sell me a full-price, undiscounted ticket without comment.
Northern Rail might offer me an £80 "settlement" - the so-called 'Penalty Fake'.
London Midland might penalty fare me (at least that's what their posters say).
ATW might move rapidly toward prosecution.
EMT expect me to hunt out the Conductor (according to their website).
Cross Country seem more inclined to prosecute than others.
Can't even guess what the Caledonian Sleeper would do!

Or they might just sell me a ticket on-train (I've done this with both ATW and LM in the past), or they might - any of them - go to prosecution.

Oh, and on two occasions LM Conductors have winked and told me not to bother buying!

How about a consistent system:

You MUST buy before travel if there are facilities (though it opens up the "twenty minute queue at the booking office" scenario).
Travel without - fixed penalty, and name on record.
Then escalates if repeated.
Criminal sanction for systematic avoidance, fraud and forgery.

Thoughts?

 

[shredder1]

My right what? Incidentally, please don't call me Lol.

Haha OK I like your style

 

[island]

A simple check digit on the end of the number would eliminate 90% of erroneous input. Royal Mail signed for numbers use one as do credit card numbers, so it's easily done.

The system with no check digit(s) was presumably implemented before TVMs were around so there was no need to worry about mistyped numbers. Now the world has changed and the industry should adapt to the new use cases for the number.

And reissue how many millions of photocards that don't meet the newly-added checksum?