The strategic Reserve??

[Kernowfem]

While at work yesterday i had the pleasure of meeting a former GN driver. The chap is now well into his 80's, but is as compes mentus as you and i.
We were chatting about the old days of steam, and discovered a mutual fondness for both the railways today and the kettles.

However he did enlighten me to a tale regarding rumours that were around years ago. Ive never heard of it before, and wondered if any of you guys had.

Apparently 'The strategic reserve' was a rumour based on the idea that many kettles were not scrapped, but overhauled and 'hidden' at places up and down the country, for the purpose of providing motive power during a future 'emergency' he described it as a sort of steam army( i have no idea what sort of emergency as he didnt specify...and i was too short on time to find out more)

Now in all my 33 years, ive never heard such a thing, and while interesting, i just wondered if these rumours were quashed years ago, or do they still do the rounds??

Can i just add that i in no way believe this to be true. Nor would i want it to be. The thread is meant light heartedly

 

[mumrar]

This again? I think if you'd have just done a search you'd have found it. This has always caused merriment and bewilderment. Maybe not on here, but I remember a particularly funny comment from someone along the lines of 'I haven't seen photos of a Blue Pullman being scrapped, so I think they still exist'

 

[38Cto15E]

I could tell you more, but then I would have to kill you

There are probably more steam locos preserved in this present day and age than could have ever been stored under strategic reserve, Long Marston is probably plan B.

Anyway, the coals all gone, the moneys all gone and if I win the lottery tonight.................

 

[Kernowfem]

This again? I think if you'd have just done a search you'd have found it. This has always caused merriment and bewilderment. Maybe not on here, but I remember a particularly funny comment from someone along the lines of 'I haven't seen photos of a Blue Pullman being scrapped, so I think they still exist'

If this has been covered before i apologise. My reasons for asking about it were purely because its something that i had never heard before.

If its a topic that has run its course then i will most certainly ask for the mods to remove the thread.

As for the rumours, i find them quite fanciful. Kettles are indeed a great piece of railway history, but i am not a steam enthusiast who would wish to bring the old birds back into circulation. I simply wondered if the rumours were quashed, and if anyone else had heard about them.

 

[Crossforth]

Would be interesting.

"Britain declares war on ----" and all these kettles simultaneously emerge from their underground hiding places covered in dust.

Must admit, never heard this rumour before.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This subject does surface quite regularly - I believe back in 1978 / 1979 it was discussed in issue 1 of Steam Railway.

Mind you, it does give rise to certain evil thoughts for a massive wind up in the weeks leading up to April 1st each year...

 

[Kernowfem]

Would be interesting.

"Britain declares war on ----" and all these kettles simultaneously emerge from their underground hiding places covered in dust.

Must admit, never heard this rumour before.

No, neither had i, thats why i wondered if any body else had....obviously its something thats been doing the rounds for years Cant believe i hadnt heard the story before....

 

[jopsuk]

The theory in the rumour is that nuclear blasts produce electromagnetic radiation bursts that could potentially fry the electrical systems of "modern" (bear in mind the rumour has been going since at least the Modernisation Plan was implemented as I understand it!) locomotives. Steam locomotives, being without such electrical systems, would be immune.

Of course, there's the issue that the vast quantities of coal for this hidden collection would also have to be hidden everywhere, and that the rail routes tend to run right through the very towns and cities that would have been turned into rather radioactive flat plains (remeber, we're talking weaponary many times more powerful than the two bombs dropped in anger) rather cutting the network into small pieces.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

We discussed this recently on the infrastructure section, though admittedly it was relating to Diesels rather than Kettles.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=32126&highlight=strategic+reserve
In fact its largely steam locomotives the myth usually belongs to. It supposedly started with 'Black Prince' (I dont know when David Sheppard named it) being overhauled on a military base (Longmoor?) which apparently started the myth the military had the ability to overhaul steam locomotives. Or at least thats the version I heard. I do know the historian Peter Hennessy looked into it on a radio programme (it no longer appears to be hosted at the bbc) and it appears that it went on during the withdrawal of steam, but ended either shortly after or concurrent witht he withdrawal of steam in the Uk. Judging by how the defence budget was being rapidly drawn down in the same period, it seems plausible.

Claims that scores of Counties and Black 5s were hidden in Rudloe Manor would appear to be nonsense. Discrepencies in numbers have been brought up, not least in 'The Railway Magazine', but it seems that its more likely due to a BR cockup rather than a conspiracy. For example, if they sold a batch for scrap, and found one missing, they put another in and changed the number, or something like that. It may explain why Rood Ashton Hall was initially thought to be Albert Hall, till they looked at the numbers on the frames.

Incidentally, Sweden certainly did have such a reserve, and I gather some of the locomotives have only just been surplused.

 

[Kernowfem]

Jopsuk and Stuart, thanks for the info...interesting stuff

 

[Metroland]

Indeed, that's the theory, steam locos don't have electrical systems that are affected. In fact you only need one nuclear explosion in the atmosphere, for all electrical systems over a very wide area to be destroyed, and the post war civilisation would fall over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

Therefore the idea of the strategic reserve is not all that far fetched, especially as the military always had, and still have very large private railway systems - which were incidentally deliberately omitted from OS maps until recently, for security.

For example, MOD Kineton and Bicester

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...1837,-1.463735&spn=0.004765,0.013733&t=h&z=17

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...73676,-1.14275&spn=0.004796,0.013733&t=h&z=17

There were rumoured to be connections next to Box tunnel, where crossover led into top secret Rudloe Manor, a huge underground store, the size of a small city below the Wiltshire countryside in part of a disused mine system

http://www.willys-mb.co.uk/rudloe.htm

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread217309/pg1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_steam_reserve


There's a lot of 'secret' military (and civilian) buildings about, some of which are detailed in the the site secret bases. Most people are not aware of strange anonymous buildings and sites which are dotted about, which from the backbone of utilities, the government, research, control centres, the internet and so on, let alone the top secret military ones, so it's all not beyond the bounds of possibility.

http://www.secret-bases.co.uk/secret.htm

 

[Oswyntail]

I could tell you more, but then I would have to kill you

Where's that TheGrich37423 when you need him? He would have all the evidence available, but not be willing to let on to us.
I can remember hearing this one before 1965, particularly when the Duchesses were snatched from us ("They're all in perfect working order, so why scrap them?").
And as for the coal supply, all you need is a fire and water - there would be enough waste material lying around after the big bomb to boil a kettle

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There is a quote that "the best place to hide something is out in the open".


Hmmmmm.... *casts eyes over the heritage railways*

 

[the sniper]

Incidentally, Sweden certainly did have such a reserve, and I gather some of the locomotives have only just been surplused.

Interesting... I guess there are no pictures of these or info about where they've been stored?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Interesting... I guess there are no pictures of these or info about where they've been stored?

There were some in Steam Railway a year or two ago.

 

[Kernowfem]

If someone dropped 'the' bomb on us, i doubt there would be many rail systems left anyway, so what would they run the kettles on?

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Interesting... I guess there are no pictures of these or info about where they've been stored?

Here you go.
http://news.gaurc.us/?p=761

I do recall something in steam railway about it. There was a bit of a stink because some of them were going to be scrapped to provide parts to keep some running. Wasnt there some comment about maybe UK groups procuring a couple?

Re strategic reserves, its true that the UK wouldnt have had much of a rail network left, but times were changing fast back then when they were making these decisions. In 1960 we were expecting the soviets to deliver most of their weapons by bombers, and not to have many H bombs. A decade later the bulk would have been H Bombs (much more powerful than an atomic bomb) and delivered by Missiles. The defence commitment reflected it, towards the end of the 60s we started cutting back on defence to be able to defend for about 6 days, whereas previously we had months worth of ammunition stocks. There was also a drawdown of Civil Defence, simply because it was realised there wasnt going to be many people left to save. So whilst there may have been a commitment to a Strategic Reserve at the begnining of that period, Im not surprised we binned the idea, particulary with the growth of the threat and the sheer cost of maintaining steam locomotives, particularly as it wasnt clear if there was going to be a rail network left after Beeching, let alone the Soviets!

In spite of that, we still kept reserves of equipment up till the 1990s. The grains stores are well known, but food stores were build near railway lines in the 50s for easy distribution. We also kept a number of stores of electricity transformers to get the national grid working again, so all those dead people would be able to make a cup of tea.:roll: There certainly was a coal reserve put together in the 1970s, though as it turned out it was more to combat the coal miners than fuel a fleet of steamers.

The question I ask myself is, Adrian Vaughn in one of his books talks of fleets of steam locomotives parked up at Swindon whilst the diesels were being introduced. In many cases the diesels failed, but nobody would allow raiding the withdrawn machines to replace the unit, or indeed much older steam locomotives that were thrashed to death. The question has to be asked, was that a typical BR cockup, or was it a short lived BR (W) attempt to put a strategic reserve together? Almost certainly a cockup admittedly, but curious all the same.

 

[the sniper]

Here you go.
http://news.gaurc.us/?p=761

Thank you very much for that, fascinating stuff!

 

[Greenback]

Yes, a very interesting post Stuart. I can see why the idea of a strategic reserve would have been appealing in the 1950's, but by the end of the 1960's it would have been obvious that it would be quite useless, as the amount of destruction from an ICBM attack would have been immense. It makes sense that these rumours were rooted in facts!

 

[silvermachine]

although the idea of steam engines as a strategic reserve is barmy, the idea of railway infrastructure surviving a nuclear attack isn't.

Unless a part of the intial crater, railway infrastructure - bridges in particular are exactly the kind of structure that survive the compression waves of nuclear blasts. Buildings and houses do very poorly as the blast raises pressure within, and as the compression wave is followed by a low pressure wave, the high pressure can explode buildings as the high pressure forces its way out ( watch films of nuclear tests to see this happening). Bridges dont trap the pressure wave and so only suffer the initial blast. Tunnels obviously are quite resilient and track itself will not suffer unless directly hit. There would be debris to be cleared of course, and you wouldnt expect any signals or point motors to work.

Trains were running into Hiroshima a few days after the bomb dropped, and the tramway which runs about 100yds from ground zero was operating about 2 weeks later ( or so I understand).

Now, lets all hold hands and be grateful that the nuclear threat has diminished and we dont need to think about these things all the time

 

[Dolive22]

As I said in (I think) the thread mentioned above, there are some connections between the box tunnel and the bunker, but they are only used for water drainage. I had all the facts to hand when I replied to the other thread, so if you want to be certain or to know more look at that.

The bunker was first to be a backup aircraft factory, then an ammunition store then a bunker. I think at some point it might have had some rail connection, but not much later than WW2.

 

[Moodster020]

However he did enlighten me to a tale regarding rumours that were around years ago. Ive never heard of it before, and wondered if any of you guys had.

Apparently 'The strategic reserve' was a rumour based on the idea that many kettles were not scrapped, but overhauled and 'hidden' at places up and down the country, for the purpose of providing motive power during a future 'emergency' he described it as a sort of steam army

@tis true.

They are known as 'Preserved railway centres'
e.g. NYMR, Bluebell rly, Llangollen rly, etc, etc

 

[Metroland]

Yes, a very interesting post Stuart. I can see why the idea of a strategic reserve would have been appealing in the 1950's, but by the end of the 1960's it would have been obvious that it would be quite useless, as the amount of destruction from an ICBM attack would have been immense. It makes sense that these rumours were rooted in facts!

Mind you, it didn't stop regular showings of public information films on TV, how to survive a nuclear attack. Take the doors off the dining room, stick them in the hall and get under them.

Railways have been used by the military since they were invented, so I guess this carried on. People these days forget the role of the railways in D day, the narrow gauge lines of northern France and Belgium in WWI on the battlefield and so on and so forth. Railways were everywhere, they served cemeteries, hospitals, water works, virtually every kind of industrial building and process. Lincolnshire even had 50 narrow gauge lines just to move potatoes!

So I guess the thinking in the 50s/60 was perhaps to stick some steam locos away, just in case?

 

[Old Timer]

The real reason behind the introduction of the motorways was to enable the rapid movement of the military and weapons in the event of the Cold War developing, hence to a large degree why it went down the West side of the Country.

It was sod all to do with Marples making money and destroying the Railways.

That was yet another myth that the Left managed to successfully generate, and even now various characters on here and elsewhere are absolutely convinced this was the reason :roll::roll::roll::roll:

Another example of how negative propoganda and plain disingenuous statements and distortions can become accepted fact if repeated often enough.

 

[ainsworth74]

It was sod all to do with Marples making money and destroying the Railways.

Can you give some more information about that? The conflict of interest that Marples had always seemed to make sense to me, and I would interested in hearing a different interpretation.

 

[Old Timer]

Can you give some more information about that? The conflict of interest that Marples had always seemed to make sense to me, and I would interested in hearing a different interpretation.

I have given you it.

Marples resigned his Company, and the Contracts were awarded on an open basis. The records are publicly available, and in THOSE days even minor things were a scandal which required Ministers to resign.

Marples had no involvment in the award of those Contracts.

The pathetic thing about this is that the various Lefties on here all scream about Marples, yet you only have to turn any page in Private Eye to see how Labour Ministers and MPs have agrandished themselves and amassed fortunes in some cases by the use of insider information and by holding jobs in businesses that have benefitted from Labour.

Rather a deafening silence about that.

 

[Spagnoletti]

The real reason behind the introduction of the motorways was to enable the rapid movement of the military and weapons in the event of the Cold War developing, hence to a large degree why it went down the West side of the Country.

It was sod all to do with Marples making money and destroying the Railways.

The cold war reasoning may well have been valid but nevertheless Marples-Ridgeway got the contract to build the M1, and ultimately he profited from it. His shares, which he agreed to divest, only went as far as his wife.
The 1975 flit to Monaco to avoid 30 years back tax kind of settles it for me - he was a wrong-un.

 

[Old Timer]

The cold war reasoning may well have been valid but nevertheless Marples-Ridgeway got the contract to build the M1, and ultimately he profited from it. His shares, which he agreed to divest, only went as far as his wife.
The 1975 flit to Monaco to avoid 30 years back tax kind of settles it for me - he was a wrong-un.

Be interesting to see your views on the far worse and blatant fraud by Labour MPs over the last 13 years for some balance.

 

[ainsworth74]

Marples resigned his Company, and the Contracts were awarded on an open basis.

Still, you have to admit its a bit convinent that the contracts went to the company that he used to own, and that his wife still had big shares in.

see how Labour Ministers and MPs have agrandished themselves and amassed fortunes in some cases by the use of insider information and by holding jobs in businesses that have benefitted from Labour.

Rather a deafening silence about that.

Indeed. Often the case when the reality of the situation doesnt fit with the 'truth' that is pushed by the left.

 

[Old Timer]

Still, you have to admit its a bit convinent that the contracts went to the company that he used to own, and that his wife still had big shares in.

So why was that not the reason for a large "scandal" then ?

Perhaps because those in Opposition realised that the tendering process was obviously open and showed no indication of bias. I dont know I can only surmise.

You can be sure that had that not been the case there would have been a public outcry from the Left.

That suggestion only came later when the Left started to re-write history to airbrush out the fact that Labour closed the majority of the Railways.

A quick check of the Wikipedia entry shows various errors of material fact.