• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

The Times: Labour considering cuts to Restoring Your Railway and dropping HS2 Euston

Status
Not open for further replies.

InTheEastMids

Member
Joined
31 Jan 2016
Messages
980
No mention of HS2 (what's left of it)?
No, and she's now talking about health & social care, so unless she's leaving it for a Steve Jobs "and another thing" moment at the end, it appears to have escaped for now.

NB RYR is cancelled as a scheme, but Secretary of State for Transport is now conducting a review so RYR projects with a strong business case may eventually proceed, but likewise other planned schemes could still be deferred or cancelled. Reeves: "This is the beginning of a process, not the end".
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
18,655
No, and she's now talking about health & social care, so unless she's leaving it for a Steve Jobs "and another thing" moment at the end, it appears to have escaped for now.
Well Euston can remain permanently on ice, waiting for private capital that never comes.

There is no need to take a political hit by putting the final nail in the coffin.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
4,828
Location
Somerset
Live from Parliament, Rachel Reeves now speaking

A303 and A27 improvements cancelled

£85m of restoring your railway projects cancelled

Transport secretary to announce details
Interestingly - the BBC state the roads are cancelled - the rail stuff is paused.
 

Tezza1978

Member
Joined
22 May 2020
Messages
262
Location
Warrington
Well Euston can remain permanently on ice, waiting for private capital that never comes.

There is no need to take a political hit by putting the final nail in the coffin.
Wrong. Station funding/design clearly being put into Haigh's review as Reeves just said.

For the 1000th time - doing nothing at Euston is not an option.
 

lachlan

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2019
Messages
1,023
Only £85m saving by axing Restoring Your Railways tells us how little had actually been confirmed/funded.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
I've just Googled the view and you can barely pick out St Paul's. It's the general city view that's impressive.
Thats not really true in real life, the view of St Pauls really is an important bench mark in the overall view of the cityscape. Its the best view in London in my opinion obstructing the middle of it with skyscrapers at Euston would be a huge mistake.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
26,725
Location
Nottingham
Only £85m saving by axing Restoring Your Railways tells us how little had actually been confirmed/funded.
I think it means that £415m of the original £500m has been spent or committed, delivering only the Okehampton and (almost) Ashington routes.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,052
Location
Mold, Clwyd
No mention of HS2 (what's left of it)?
No, but all transport spending will be reviewed by Louise Haigh.
The poor railway finances during/since Covid did feature, with a £1.6 billion unrecognised deficit.
Departmental budgets to be cut by £3 billion to part-close the £22 billion black hole.

Jeremy Hunt making a spirited defence.
There's political chicanery on both sides.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
18,655
Wrong. Station funding/design clearly being put into Haigh's review as Reeves just said.
In other words "go away and we might deign to make a decision later".
Kicking the can down the road is not encouraging.
For the 1000th time - doing nothing at Euston is not an option.
It clearly is an option, it might not be one that you want, but it is still certainly possible to do nothing at Euston.
The belief that the state had no alternative to pouring billions into HS2 is a big part of how we landed in this mess in the first place!
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
8,712
Location
Taunton or Kent
No, but all transport spending will be reviewed by Louise Haigh.
The poor railway finances during/since Covid did feature, with a £1.6 billion unrecognised deficit.
Departmental budgets to be cut by £3 billion to part-close the £22 billion black hole.

Jeremy Hunt making a spirited defence.
There's political chicanery on both sides.
It is very difficult if not impossible for Hunt to take the moral high ground in this: if he claims this black hole was known about before the election it shows he made no effort to address it.

I suspect Labour were going to receive hefty criticism either way in relation to everything going on here, so have taken the approach of getting it over with all at once at the very beginning of the parliament, which is the least worst option. All of these issues were clearly present so any dither and delay would have increased the financial and political cost.
 

Nicholas Lewis

On Moderation
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
7,266
Location
Surrey
No, but all transport spending will be reviewed by Louise Haigh.
That was the 1 Billion unfunded transport commitments made by Torys which I guess is the likes of N.Wales Electrification but none specifically named
The poor railway finances during/since Covid did feature, with a £1.6 billion unrecognised deficit.
That was against this years DfT budget already which is only 3mths old but that could easily be on the likes of HS2 and not necessarily day to day running of the railways.
Departmental budgets to be cut by £3 billion to part-close the £22 billion black hole.
This was to help pay for the public sector pay body awards plus settlement of the Junior Doctors who have received 22% according to Hunt Reeves gave no figure.

What can be certain here is when the settlement is made with ASLEF its going have to internally funded to some degree and I suspect that will see more service cutbacks like we have seen with Scotrail and XC already especially those hvaing to make high use of RDW and o/t.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
7,570
It is very difficult if not impossible for Hunt to take the moral high ground in this: if he claims this black hole was known about before the election it shows he made no effort to address it.

I suspect Labour were going to receive hefty criticism either way in relation to everything going on here, so have taken the approach of getting it over with all at once at the very beginning of the parliament, which is the least worst option. All of these issues were clearly present so any dither and delay would have increased the financial and political cost.
There's stuff Labour knew about already, plus genuinely new nasties. Either way Labour were always going to use "it's all the fault of the previous government for leaving a mess" excuse, which is standard politics.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
18,655
There's stuff Labour knew about already, plus genuinely new nasties. Either way Labour were always going to use "it's all the fault of the previous government for leaving a mess" excuse, which is standard politics.
They've not yet announced any "genuinely new nasties" if there are any.

Everything they've stated was already known amongst people who deal with such things - as the IFS has been saying throughout.
 

lachlan

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2019
Messages
1,023
I think it means that £415m of the original £500m has been spent or committed, delivering only the Okehampton and (almost) Ashington routes.

It’s presumably 1 or 2 stations and no end of feasibility studies.
Good points - at least feasibility studies can be revisited so hopefully all is not lost.
No mention of HS2 (what's left of it)?
Or the Lower Thames Crossing which would be an easy candidate to cut on cost and environmental grounds. I wonder if there's more to come.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
9,397
Location
London
Regarding “Restoring Your Railways” personally I’m surprised anyone took seriously any of the announcements of the last 12-24 months by the previous government anyway…
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,066
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
What can be certain here is when the settlement is made with ASLEF its going have to internally funded to some degree and I suspect that will see more service cutbacks like we have seen with Scotrail and XC already especially those hvaing to make high use of RDW and o/t.
When I hear of "private finance" input into rail projects being made mention of in threads on a number of websites, I ask myself if I had a position of note in a multinational finance organisation, would I be committing billions of pounds sterling into a rail network that can be disrupted by rail union industrial action by the major two rail unions over a number of years?
 

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
2,417
Regarding “Restoring Your Railways” personally I’m surprised anyone took seriously any of the announcements of the last 12-24 months by the previous government anyway…
Agreed. It was another daft 'knobbly knees contest' with very little actually done - as we've noted, only Okehampton and Ashington have been reopened (and were reletaively easy as they were still operating freight lines).
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
17,693
When I hear of "private finance" input into rail projects being made mention of in threads on a number of websites, I ask myself if I had a position of note in a multinational finance organisation, would I be committing billions of pounds sterling into a rail network that can be disrupted by rail union industrial action by the major two rail unions over a number of years?
Prior to the recent unrest, how much union disruption was there?
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
41,575
Location
Yorks
What can be certain here is when the settlement is made with ASLEF its going have to internally funded to some degree and I suspect that will see more service cutbacks like we have seen with Scotrail and XC already especially those hvaing to make high use of RDW and o/t.

I feel that this will be the proof of the pudding. If we just see more of a slide in the day to day quality of the service, I'll feel vindicated in not voting for them. However it's early days yet - I want to give them a decent run at it first.

Agreed. It was another daft 'knobbly knees contest' with very little actually done - as we've noted, only Okehampton and Ashington have been reopened (and were reletaively easy as they were still operating freight lines).

We shouldn't detract from those achievements, especially compared with the dismal lack of reopenings in England for almost the whole of the previous period of privatisation.
 

BingMan

Member
Joined
8 Feb 2019
Messages
509
I can understand the practicalities about it, however even where we manage it with CGT and IT for example, some people seem to put up a tremendous objection to it, whereas they don't with taxing income.
Income tax and CGT reduce your income but does not reduce your net wealth. Wealth taxes nibble away at your assets.
I have no objection to 20% of my income going to tax. I would be seriously dischuffed to have to sell my house so that 20% of its value could go to the exchequer
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,868
Prior to the recent unrest, how much union disruption was there?
Perhaps because the staff were just bought off, contributing to the financial pickle the railways find themselves in now? Jolly good for the staff, not so good for the taxpayers.
 

Speed43125

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2019
Messages
1,165
Location
Dunblane
No mention of HS2 (what's left of it)?
Given the axe they've taken to politically sensitive things, such as the Winter Fuel Allowance, its possible that we can be more bullish on future HS2 prospects. If you were going to cancel the Euston extension say, what do they have to gain by kicking that bad press down the road, especially if they could continue to blame the Tories for it now.

The NAO report criticised the fact that no one has really got any view about the rail service that can be run once Phase 1 is built other than Old Oak Common to Curzon Street. Even then, there will still likely be 2tph from Euston to Birmingham via Weedon to continue Coventry having a fast service to London, 2tph on the Chiltern line and 2tph via Northampton, with lots of people from the West Midlands complaining that their Euston service has been slowed down.
Well quite, reminds me of a certain proposal a few months ago that referenced this exact issue...

That was the one I was thinking of. I think those of us outside of London would feel pleased that Labour were taking on a rule which helps people in some of the nicer suburbs of London, but has no parallel in other cities*

* Manchester has an unofficial doughnut policy whereby the central area has limits on height and the bigger towers are on sites surrounding the "hole". However, that has been challenged by the St Michaels (or whatever it is called now) and some of the new developments on the old Manchester Central station approaches.
The Victorian Greenhouse that is Waverly station suggests Edinburgh has a fair few of those as well*

It's worth noting that the Protected Views of St. Paul's only entered into law in 1937; the railway is no stranger to redefining these protections, though the fact it would be for private development, rather than directly national infrastructure that the views might be given up on no doubt limits any arguments of public utility.


* In research I did regarding the NBR's line to Edinburgh, I did come across an 1845 proposal to expand the North Bridge (the bridge that crosses over the width of the station) by allowing shops on it. One of the magistrates in the council attempted to justify the proposal by reporting that 'upon trying, he found that the prospects would still be visible from the top of a coach, provided the person wishing to see stood up.'

The view in question obviously was not enshrined in law per se, merely protected under the subscription that the bridge widening proposal had been collected under. The fact we have such legally enshrined protections for public amenity today is not something we should be opposed to I would suggest. Contrast these protections to the more nebulous claims protecting plain fields (?) that have resulted in HS2's route closer resembling the Maginot Line than HS1 say, or the legacy WCML.
 

BingMan

Member
Joined
8 Feb 2019
Messages
509
The idea of free childcare is it's supposed to pay for itself by freeing up women to work formal jobs, but with the very high staff ratios daycares are required to have it cant be saving much
It will free up women to work in the child care sector.
 

oldman

Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
1,157
Unfortunately I expect they will simply axe everything to pay for their very expensive day-to-day spending (especially the triple lock).
Wasn't the triple lock you dislike so often a Tory policy to shore up the pensioner vote, that Labour, probably reluctantly, had to promise to keep? Anyway like me you'll be pleased the winter fuel payment is going to be limited to those on means-tested benefits, so a reduction of about 3% in my state pension income. Hopefully I still get the £10 Christmas bonus, otherwise I don't know how I'll cope.
 

cinders&ashes

Member
Joined
29 Oct 2023
Messages
43
Location
Havant
It’s presumably 1 or 2 stations and no end of feasibility studies.
23 proposals reached SOBC stage and would've been funded for that. As well as the Okehampton (delivered) and Northumberland (delivering) lines, work was advanced on the next 2 to start (the Portishead rail link and the Ivanhoe Line), there are also 10-15 stations on existing routes included as part of this (e.g. Haxby, Wellington, Cullompton, White Rose etc)
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,066
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
Given the axe they've taken to politically sensitive things, such as the Winter Fuel Allowance, its possible that we can be more bullish on future HS2 prospects. If you were going to cancel the Euston extension say, what do they have to gain by kicking that bad press down the road, especially if they could continue to blame the Tories for it now.
Could you clarify exactly what you mean by "future HS2 projects"? I do hope that you are not including the HS2a already-cancelled project in that particular scenario, as the mayors of Greater Manchester and Greater Scouseland would not be able to contain themselves with glee had mention been made of any positive news about it by the Chancellor today.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
18,655
Wasn't the triple lock you dislike so often a Tory policy to shore up the pensioner vote, that Labour, probably reluctantly, had to promise to keep?
He didn't have to promise to keep it.
At best keeping it got him a marginally larger majority, and in return it will do major damage to his purported investment agenda.

This election was probably the only realistic chance to get rid of the triple lock before it goes from being a problem to a disaster for the public finances.

He will almost certainly rue it in 2029.

But this is off topic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top