Theresa May calls General Election on 8th June.

[Arglwydd Golau]

Sadly none of that matters to him or his supporters. They don't even want to win! I have come to see they view electoral failure as a way to purge the party of those unfaithful to Clownbyn and then rebuild in their own deluded SWP image.

That said I simply can not consider voting Tory. It would disgust mt more than words can express and shame me for the rest of time. it would also be a betrayal of everything i believe in.

I might just spoil my paper. :cry::cry::cry:

I'd be really interested to know where the source of this information is, perhaps you can let me know (or is it just your opinion?).
Incidentally, I have always voted Labour even though I may not have any particular great positive feelings for the incumbent leader, if Corbyn was replaced by someone in Blair's image, surely you would expect me to vote Labour as ever? It is sad that you are playing into the Tories hands.

 

[bramling]

It's called trust.

So in other words one has no guarantee. Sounds open to abuse to me. A good thing about the EU referendum was that every vote counted, although there are some good reasons for why our electoral system is like it is, even though it can and does act as a distorting mirror.

 

[Howardh]

That's fine if it's been thought through and the implications have also been thought through. Just picking a party out of thin air is not tactical voting, it's just daft. Same with some people in the south-west who used to say they voted Lib Dem because orange is a happy colour matching the sunny image of the area.

This is the fault of our current system.
Three parties, A, B and C. You just love C's policies, but they can only muster 10% of the constituency. So you go back to A and B and ask yourself "which do I like least" and vote for the other - so it's a negative vote.

Other than PR I can't think of a way round it. The argument against is PR deprives the constituency of the MP it voted for, on the other hand you may want to deal with your own MP who is opposed to your views!

I don't think PR would bring unstable governments, between 2010 and 2015 we had the most stable government I've ever seen!!

 

[edwin_m]

This is the fault of our current system.
Three parties, A, B and C. You just love C's policies, but they can only muster 10% of the constituency. So you go back to A and B and ask yourself "which do I like least" and vote for the other - so it's a negative vote.

Other than PR I can't think of a way round it. The argument against is PR deprives the constituency of the MP it voted for, on the other hand you may want to deal with your own MP who is opposed to your views!

I don't think PR would bring unstable governments, between 2010 and 2015 we had the most stable government I've ever seen!!

There are forms of PR that retain the link to the constituency. One is the party top-up, where each constituency still elects one member but there is also a group chosen from the closest losers, numbers from each party being set to make their total representation match their total share of the vote. Another is larger multi-member constituencies, where you end up with a choice of representatives to go to according to political or personal preference. Yet another is the single transferrable vote.

To my mind our electoral system is one of the reasons why the country is so divided. Most people live in safe seats, where the incumbent party takes them for granted and the others don't bother trying to dislodge them.

 

[bramling]

This is the fault of our current system.
Three parties, A, B and C. You just love C's policies, but they can only muster 10% of the constituency. So you go back to A and B and ask yourself "which do I like least" and vote for the other - so it's a negative vote.

Other than PR I can't think of a way round it. The argument against is PR deprives the constituency of the MP it voted for, on the other hand you may want to deal with your own MP who is opposed to your views!

I don't think PR would bring unstable governments, between 2010 and 2015 we had the most stable government I've ever seen!!

You may be right about the stability, however people evidently weren't over keen on the arrangement as one partner got comprehensively rejected in the 2015 election. To be fair to our system, the end result of our general elections does generally end up reflecting the general mood of the country and what the majority want.

 

[DarloRich]

I'd be really interested to know where the source of this information is, perhaps you can let me know (or is it just your opinion?).
Incidentally, I have always voted Labour even though I may not have any particular great positive feelings for the incumbent leader, if Corbyn was replaced by someone in Blair's image, surely you would expect me to vote Labour as ever? It is sad that you are playing into the Tories hands.

You cant honestly think Clowbyn has a chance of taking power can you? He and his clown army have ensured the Tories can call and easily win an election thus securing their power for years. What comes next is the fault of everyone who supports Corbyn although they will blame anyone BUT Corbyn.

But then it is much easier to complain abut the awful Tories than try to win power isnt it? You play into their hands by supporting Corbyn. Why cant you see that? Why cant you see the damage he is doing? He is perhaps the best Tory agent ever.

They aren't scared of him - they LOVE him being in charge of Labour as it gives them a free hand to do as they please for the next 10 years and finishes us as parliamentary force. But yeah i am the one helping the Tories.

 

[EM2]

So in other words one has no guarantee.

Nothing is guaranteed. Clacton voters thought they would have a UKIP MP, but he is now an Independent. Many Conservative voters thought that David Cameron would be Prime Minister throughout this Parliament, and now Theresa May is PM. Almost everyone was pretty sure there's be no General Election before 2020, and yet here we are.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm not a fan of these Turkish comparisons, the logic is that by going to the polls she's making a "power grab" - but that's how democracy works.

She's not going to get any additional power, the constitution isn't going to change, she is only going to gain an extra 2 years in power and most importantly we have an independent judiciary, free press and fair electoral system. It's nothing like Turkey.

Plus she's going from being an "unelected" PM to being an "elected" PM with her own policies (assuming she wins).

Actually it is a power grab, though not of Turkish proportions.

Barring another backflip (and one that would infuriate the right wing and probably lead to May being deposed) the Tory manifesto will have hard Brexit as a centrepiece. A likely win raises this to the status of a manifesto commitment, even if the real reason has a lot more to do with the disarray of Labour, and a large majority renders the few remaining centreist Conservatives even more irrelevant. Then the prime minister has free rein to attack all the checks and balances currently provided by Europe, from the Court of Justice to the Working Time Directive.

 

[DarloRich]

Actually it is a power grab, though not of Turkish proportions.

Barring another backflip (and one that would infuriate the right wing and probably lead to May being deposed) the Tory manifesto will have hard Brexit as a centrepiece. A likely win raises this to the status of a manifesto commitment, even if the real reason has a lot more to do with the disarray of Labour, and a large majority renders the few remaining centreist Conservatives even more irrelevant. Then the prime minister has free rein to attack all the checks and balances currently provided by Europe, from the Court of Justice to the Working Time Directive.

That is exactly that they want and they know they can get a vast majority to ensure delivery thanks to Corbyn. ( Who the Tories, apparently, fear because he cant be bought or some such)

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

You cant honestly think Clowbyn has a chance of taking power can you? He and his clown army have ensured the Tories can call and easily win an election thus securing their power for years. What comes next is the fault of everyone who supports Cprbyn although they will blame anyone BUT Corbyn.

But then it is much easier to complain abut the awful Tories than try to win power isnt it? You play into their hands by supporting Corbyn. Why cant you see that? Why cant you see the damage he is doing? He is perhaps the best Tory agent ever.

They aren't scared of him - they LOVE him being in charge of Labour as it gives them a free hand to do as they please for the next 10 years and finishes us as parliamentary force. But yeah i am the one helping the Tories.

Sorry, but you haven't answered my question, but I will answer yours...honestly, no, I don't, unfortunately, for reasons that I have expressed before and that you have rubbished. I will reiterate, I would vote Labour even if the leader was someone that I didn't especially like, in the hope that he/she would be able to carry out some policies that I would approve of. In our one little moment of democracy every few years or so I couldn't possibly contemplate voting for the other parties.

 

[northwichcat]

My prediction would be in England a lot of people will vote in the same way they did in 2010 (when a number of voters believed the Tory lies of Labour causing the recession.) However, in Scotland a lot of people will vote the same way they did in 2015. For Labour to be successful it would need to be the other way around.

I'm not sure about Wales. The impression I have of Leanne Wood is that she's an excellent party leader for Plaid Cymru but some people in Wales voted for Neil Hamilton so it must be someone's put toxin in one of the reservoirs supplying drinking water.

 

[northwichcat]

The London Evening Standard has reported George Osborne will not be standing in the election.

If he had stood he risked his support going from around 50% to under 33%. Some life long Conservative voters in Tatton were saying they wouldn't vote Conservative until he stood down.

 

[DarloRich]

Sorry, but you haven't answered my question, but I will answer yours...honestly, no, I don't, unfortunately, for reasons that I have expressed before and that you have rubbished. I will reiterate, I would vote Labour even if the leader was someone that I didn't especially like, in the hope that he/she would be able to carry out some policies that I would approve of. In our one little moment of democracy every few years or so I couldn't possibly contemplate voting for the other parties.

and I doubt I will vote for someone else really but that I am thinking of it must show how poor and uninspiring Corbyn truly is.

I am a practical, realistic socialist (hopefully) & I think that means compromising and trying to secure a good deal for the highest number of people we can. I also recognize that we have to win the centre ground to take power. If we cant do that then all of the good polices Corbyn suggests are meaningless. He may as well offer us all a free unicorn for the likelihood of delivery.

THAT is what frustrates me the most. We have a Tory government implementing harsh polices that damage the fabric of society and the institutions we all rely on and they are getting a free pass to do that and more.

 

[northwichcat]

Labour's first policy announcement - higher income rate for those earning over £70,000 a year. They've not made clear whether that'll be lowering the existing 45p threshold or an additional threshold.

 

[DarloRich]

Labour's first policy announcement - higher income rate for those earning over £70,000 a year. They've not made clear whether that'll be lowering the existing 45p threshold or an additional threshold.

and line up the politics of envy quotes.....................

 

[edwin_m]

The London Evening Standard has reported George Osborne will not be standing in the election.

They should know!

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

and I doubt I will vote for someone else really but that I am thinking of it must show how poor and uninspiring Corbyn truly is.

I am a practical, realistic socialist (hopefully) & I think that means compromising and trying to secure a good deal for the highest number of people we can. I also recognize that we have to win the centre ground to take power. If we cant do that then all of the good polices Corbyn suggests are meaningless. He may as well offer us all a free unicorn for the likelihood of delivery.

THAT is what frustrates me the most. We have a Tory government implementing harsh polices that damage the fabric of society and the institutions we all rely on and they are getting a free pass to do that and more.

Well, that is a bit more clear! However, it is very much a circular argument, and one that has been well played out previously. Vote for the centre ground and what do you get? As an example, if you remember, it was Harriet Harman's instruction to MPs to abstain in the 2015 Welfare Bill that gave Corbyn's original leadership campaign a major boost. (as admitted later by Andy Burnham) I do not want to see a Labour Party that conspires with the Tories to add more pressure on the most disadvantaged in our society.
I know you disagree, but any Labour leader who advocates the 'good policies that Corbyn suggests' would be trashed by our wonderful media.

 

[DarloRich]

Well, that is a bit more clear! However, it is very much a circular argument, and one that has been well played out previously. Vote for the centre ground and what do you get? As an example, if you remember, it was Harriet Harman's instruction to MPs to abstain in the 2015 Welfare Bill that gave Corbyn's original leadership campaign a major boost. (as admitted later by Andy Burnham) I do not want to see a Labour Party that conspires with the Tories to add more pressure on the most disadvantaged in our society.
I know you disagree, but any Labour leader who advocates the 'good policies that Corbyn suggests' would be trashed by our wonderful media.

I do disagree - I think that Corbyn and his team show a complete and perhaps willful disregard for the media and for the importance of using the media to win supporters.

They do little to counter the bad reporting and simply use it as an excuse to embolden their more fruity supporters who see plots everywhere. It simply shows how ill suited they are to power. He has had little or no media training and his team have little or no idea about media management.

Look at the obvious way he shows his frustrations with questions he doesn't like and the cack handed stunts like ram jammed trains. They seem to think the media should just offer a platform for airing the Corbyinan position on anything rather than facing scrutiny on policy and character. It is amateurish.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I do disagree - I think that Corbyn and his team show a complete and perhaps willful disregard for the media and for the importance of using the media to win supporters.

They do little to counter the bad reporting and simply use it as an excuse to embolden their more fruity supporters who see plots everywhere. It simply shows how ill suited they are to power. He has had little or no media training and his team have little or no idea about media management.

Look at the obvious way he shows his frustrations with questions he doesn't like and the cack handed stunts like ram jammed trains. They seem to think the media should just offer a platform for airing the Corbyinan position on anything rather than facing scrutiny on policy and character. It is amateurish.

Have to disagree on that, although our media reporting has got worse, I recall Foot, Kinnock and Miliband all taking a pasting. I don't think that the media bothers with any riposte that Corbyn's team makes to their duff reporting, there have been a number of (reputable) studies that have shown this (not only The Canary!)

 

[bramling]

Labour's first policy announcement - higher income rate for those earning over £70,000 a year. They've not made clear whether that'll be lowering the existing 45p threshold or an additional threshold.

A wonderful start - how many votes will be lost on that alone?

Even if one sympathises with the principle, human nature is such that once in the privacy of the polling booth, few will vote for something which is going to cost them money. Where I work people squabble over a few pounds worth of overtime.

There are certainly potential Labour voters on that sort of salary - especially in the London area.

 

[bramling]

Have to disagree on that, although our media reporting has got worse, I recall Foot, Kinnock and Miliband all taking a pasting. I don't think that the media bothers with any riposte that Corbyn's team makes to their duff reporting, there have been a number of (reputable) studies that have shown this (not only The Canary!)

It's nothing unique to Labour, I remember William Hague being torn apart by the media, and things were little better with IDS and Michael Howard.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

It's nothing unique to Labour, I remember William Hague being torn apart by the media, and things were little better with IDS and Michael Howard.

Agreed, in some respects, but the media didn't waver in the support for the Tories (just the leader) but when it came to an election, the Tory media fell into line (except The Sun in 1997 after Blair courted Murdoch)....and the Tory MP's themselves generally know when not to rock the boat.

 

[me123]

Parliament agrees, with just 13 MPs disagreeing to the notion that there will be another GE. We're definitely going to the polls on 8th June.

All main parties voted for the election aside from the SNP who abstained.

 

[Bromley boy]

Labour's first policy announcement - higher income rate for those earning over £70,000 a year. They've not made clear whether that'll be lowering the existing 45p threshold or an additional threshold.

The trouble with this kind of policy is people can see straight through it. It's just old fashioned tax and spend socialism.

Quite a lot of people (particularly in the south east) may well be earning around £70k. They will not be living like millionaires and, if the sole breadwinner in a family household was earning this salary, they may even be in the "just about managing" camp. If Labour want to win votes from people like this they are going the wrong way about it.

There is nothing new or revolutionary about any of Corbyn's ideas, they're just recycled dogma from the 1970s.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The trouble with this kind of policy is people can see straight through it. It's just old fashioned tax and spend socialism.

Quite a lot of people (particularly in the south east) may well be earning around £70k. They will not be living like millionaires and, if the sole breadwinner in a family household was earning this salary, they may even be in the "just about managing" camp. If Labour want to win votes from people like this they are going the wrong way about it.

There is nothing new or revolutionary about any of Corbyn's ideas, they're just recycled dogma from the 1970s.

Surely you are just looking at that policy in isolation! In all my years working in the NHS I only met a handful of people earning 70k, I certainly wasn't and I was the head of my profession! The south-east is broken because of the ridiculous house prices that have spiralled out of control. Whilst there may be many people in the SE earning that amount, there are many more who aren't!

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely you are just looking at that policy in isolation! In all my years working in the NHS I only met a handful of people earning 70k, I certainly wasn't and I was the head of my profession! The south-east is broken because of the ridiculous house prices that have spiralled out of control. Whilst there may be many people in the SE earning that amount, there are many more who aren't!

The point is, a LOT of people in the SE earn that kind of money. They aren't necessarily "rich", or there to be penalised - part of the reason wages are high is to keep pace with the cost of living or housing.

This kind of policy totally alienates me - I am what I call a "Floating ABC" (Anyone But Conservative).

Fortunately, Corbyn is a million miles off ever being in No10, because he and his friends are ideological purists in a country which has never accepted proper socialism.

 

[SteveP29]

They aren't scared of him - they LOVE him being in charge of Labour as it gives them a free hand to do as they please for the next 10 years and finishes us as parliamentary force.

Why do they (tory party, right wing press, BBC) dedicate so much time to attacking him then if he's no threat to them and they aren't scared?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Knocking on doors the issue that comes up time and time again is Jeremy Corbyn. It's no surprise that so many Labour MPs are trying to distance them selves from him.

 

[SteveP29]

If we cant do that then all of the good polices Corbyn suggests are meaningless. He may as well offer us all a free unicorn for the likelihood of delivery.

THAT is what frustrates me the most. We have a Tory government implementing harsh polices that damage the fabric of society and the institutions we all rely on and they are getting a free pass to do that and more.

So you think he's unelectable, but you do admire some of his policies, while at the same time decrying the policies the tories are using to further their own agenda to the cost of 90% of the country.
Surely those policies themselves are enough to persuade you to vote for him, why would you vote to threaten your livelihood, standard of living and community? it makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever

 

[Bromley boy]

Surely you are just looking at that policy in isolation! In all my years working in the NHS I only met a handful of people earning 70k, I certainly wasn't and I was the head of my profession! The south-east is broken because of the ridiculous house prices that have spiralled out of control. Whilst there may be many people in the SE earning that amount, there are many more who aren't!

True, but a great many people who previously voted Labour will be earning around this amount or slightly less and will not feel like they are members of some kind of elite, high income club, as that simply isn't the reality on the ground.

To be honest looking at his "10 point plan" to rebuild Britain from last year, the only sensible, achievable idea I can see is closer integration between social care and the NHS (I'm aware a massive problem for the NHS is beds being clogged up by people who no longer need them, but are waiting to be moved on into appropriate social care etc.)

The rest of it just reads like a list of idealistic soundbites with no realistic prospect of being achieved. £500bn to invest, where is that coming from?

Putting differences of politics aside, his biggest problem is that he lacks the leadership and political ability to effectively sell his message to people outside his own echo chamber and, in many cases, even to his own MPs.