Threw away ticket for first part of journey (Thatto Heath - Edge Hill - Birkenhead)

[mrscherry]

Yesterday I travelled from Thatto Heath station to Edge Hill, edge hill being my destination. I bought a ticket which was checked on the train and then disposed once id got to edge hill. After waiting around 10 minutes I then get a phone call to say my plans have changed and I should go to birkenhead north so I wait for the next train into lime street.

when i arrive at lime street i purchase a ticket from edge hill to birkenhead north which is marked in blue pen, when i get through some man pulled me aside and asked where i had come from to which i said edge hill. he starts to question that saying people had been giving out leaflets there to check people had been travelling from the station they say they have. I of course didnt have a leaflet as i had not come into the station i had simply got off the train and waited on the platform adjacent for the next train.

This man stood and questioned me for 20 minutes, saying he had reason to believe i have travelled from further than i said i have, took a full account of my story as well as a full description of what i looked like..my information on my provisional i was told i could expect a criminal record and/or fine for this.

What has left me confused is what have I supposed to have done? Admittedly I didn't have my ticket from thatto heath to edge hill as id thrown it away when i realised I did not need it and would be purchasing another ticket from edge hill to birkenhead north.

if anyone could give me advice it would be extremely appreciated

 

[island]

That is a little awkward.

What normally happens in these circumstances is that you get a letter sometime within the next 3 months asking you to account for the circumstances of your journey.

Why did you not buy a ticket during your change at Edge Hill?

 

[mrscherry]

3 months?! Is that how long it takes?!

You mean why didnt I buy one at edge hill instead of lime street? I just thought I'd buy one when I got to lime street, I see a lot of people do it all the time and didn't think there would be a problem with that

 

[GadgetMan]

If Edgehill was originally your final destination, why would you hang around the station for 10 minutes when you arrived rather than exit?

I can appreciate why the RPI would find your version of events suspicious.

 

[mrscherry]

I was waiting for my boyfriend to rinf me as he'd told me to stay where I was as I'd be travelling to birkenhead north and he wouldn't be meeting me at edge hill as first planned

 

[island]

I said sometime within 3 months. I think normally it's around 4 weeks.

Unfortunately, it is a criminal offence to enter a train for the purpose of travel without being in possession of a valid ticket. Edge Hill has a ticket office open six days a week, and therefore it seems that you have committed this offence.

It is normally possible to convince Northern and other train companies to discontinue a prosecution by offering a payment for their administrative cost, which might be in the region of £100. You will need to wait until you get the letter, though.

 

[wintonian]

You say you disposed of your original ticket at Edge Hill - why did you not wait until you would have left the station to throw it away? Did you consider the possibility of a ticket check as you were leaving Edge Hill?

I appreciate that you didn't actually leave the station but I gather that was your intention at the time of disposing of the ticket.

 

[mrscherry]

Just to clarify, when I got off the train I got a text to say I would be travelling to birkenhead north. At that point I got rid of my ticket as I knew I wouldnt be leaving the station so didn't think I needed it. And would need to buy a new one edge hill to bhead north

 

[island]

You say you disposed of your original ticket at Edge Hill - why did you not wait until you would have left the station to throw it away? Did you consider the possibility of a ticket check as you were leaving Edge Hill?

I appreciate that you didn't actually leave the station but I gather that was your intention at the time of disposing of the ticket.

I don't think that's really relevant to this matter, as the passenger had the option to purchase a ticket for her onward journey at Edge Hill and declined to do so.

 

[mrscherry]

I said sometime within 3 months. I think normally it's around 4 weeks.

Unfortunately, it is a criminal offence to enter a train for the purpose of travel without being in possession of a valid ticket. Edge Hill has a ticket office open six days a week, and therefore it seems that you have committed this offence.

It is normally possible to convince Northern and other train companies to discontinue a prosecution by offering a payment for their administrative cost, which might be in the region of £100. You will need to wait until you get the letter, though.

But I havent got on a train without a ticket? Well, I suppose in a way I have..but I have bought one when I have got to lime street from the station I have travelled from to the station I am travelling to. It isn't as though Ive tried to go through without a ticket?

Also what do you mean possible to convince them?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I guess it was very stupid of me and quite lazy really not going to the office at edge hill to purchase a ticket. But I decline what I was accused of, which is apparantly travelling from further afield without purchasing a ticket.

I travel on trains around 8 times a week. My journey being inbetween stations from thatto heath to birkenhead north and never once have I begrudged paying for a ticket nor dodged paying for one. I pay around 16 pound a week in train fares so I am quite upset and offended that I have been targetted. I have many train tickets in my purse to prove my frequent journeys. Would this help my case when I get the letter from them?

 

[yorkie]

But I havent got on a train without a ticket?

But you did, you could have got a ticket at Edge Hill.

Unfortunately you are required to retain all the tickets that cover your entire journey until you have exited the station at your final destination.

If you want to consider it to be one journey then you should not have thrown the first ticket away.

What has left me confused is what have I supposed to have done?

At Edge Hill? Get a ticket from there.

However you still could have avoided this situation...

.... asked where i had come from to which i said edge hill....

... if you said where you had actually come from (Thatto Heath) and explained the circumstances, I don't think that you'd be in this position.

Unfortunately a lot of people do claim to have come from Edge Hill when they have actually made a longer journey, and Northern are carrying out several checks to detect this.

The same happens in the Manchester and Leeds areas.

• Did you buy a Single or Return ticket?
• Did you pay at a ticket office or machine?
• Did you pay by card or cash?

 

[mrscherry]

Ahhh I am now starting to see where I have gone wrong. I thought if the conductor on the train had seen my first ticket that that journey had been authorised. And since I was making a new journey (edge hill to bhead north) that would require a new ticket which I purchased and that would be fine?

 

[wintonian]

I don't think that's really relevant to this matter, as the passenger had the option to purchase a ticket for her onward journey at Edge Hill and declined to do so.

Not disposing of the ticket until leaving railway premises might have indicated that the OP had a good reason for not having one of these 'leaflets' being handed out a Edge Hill, in any case if it was combined with the Edge Hill - Birkenhead ticket there shouldn't be a problem.

What I'm really trying to say is its generally not a good idea to throw away your ticket until you have left the station at your final destination.

 

[snail]

Sadly, you need to step back from your emotional response and look at the facts. You did travel without a ticket from Edge Hill, despite having had time to buy one there. The train company know that because they were monitoring journeys (which they very often do from that station). You will have the chance to explain your side of the story and others on here will try to help you if you need it. Keeping to the facts and not bearing grudges will help but you may well end up paying considerably more than the price of your ticket for this simple oversight.

 

[mrscherry]

I can understand what you're saying. It is only over laziness and the fact I knew I could buy one when I got to lime street I didn't think there was a problem.

What is my best way of explaining this when I get the letter. Should I admit I made an honest mistake by not buying a ticket at the station, and instead buying one at lime street. Offering to pay a penalty fare what ever it may be?

 

[yorkie]

Ahhh I am now starting to see where I have gone wrong. I thought if the conductor on the train had seen my first ticket that that journey had been authorised. And since I was making a new journey (edge hill to bhead north) that would require a new ticket which I purchased and that would be fine?

Yes but if you want to get rid of the evidence of the first part of the journey then you really do need to be careful to ensure that you buy the new ticket at the station where your previous ticket ended. It is advisable to hold on to all tickets until you have fully exited your final destination, there are many reasons for this, some of which are for your benefit (e.g. if I do Penzance - London on one ticket and throw it away, and then do London - York on another ticket, if I am delayed I cannot claim compensation for my whole journey as I have no evidence of it. Also if I threw the first ticket away at London and got delayed on the tube and missed the next train, then I have thrown away the evidence that would have entitled me to onward travel)

Please see my questions above regarding your ticket from Thatto Heath. Is there really no evidence at all of it?

What is my best way of explaining this when I get the letter. Should I admit I made an honest mistake by not buying a ticket at the station, and instead buying one at lime street. Offering to pay a penalty fare what ever it may be?

I think that you should consider seeking legal advice on that decision, when the time comes.

However one possible course of action would be to offer to pay the fare (there is no Penalty Fare applicable) plus costs, this would be an out of court settlement. There is no way to say what the likelihood would be of Northern agreeing to such a settlement, as each case is different.

 

[mrscherry]

Pretty stupid of me really, now you point that out it would seem wise to hang on to my ticket until I arrived at my FINAL destination.

As I stated in an above post, I have around 8 tickets in my purse from previous occassions which show the regularity of the journey I make. Would these make any difference or would they not really relate?

Really annoyed at how stupid I have been.

 

[snail]

Pretty stupid of me really, now you point that out it would seem wise to hang on to my ticket until I arrived at my FINAL destination.

As I stated in an above post, I have around 8 tickets in my purse from previous occassions which show the regularity of the journey I make. Would these make any difference or would they not really relate?

Really annoyed at how stupid I have been.

Is this the journey to Birkenhead or Edge Hill? Either way, the obvious questions are "why did you throw this ticket away then? " and "are you sure you bought one? "

 

[mrscherry]

My journey was from edge hill to birkenhead north. The ticket I threw away was thatto heath to edge hill. As I wasnt going to be exiting at edge hill I didn't think I no longer needed the ticket as it had been seen by the inspector on the train. And my new journey would be edge hill to bhead north which I bought a ticket for

 

[island]

Pretty stupid of me really, now you point that out it would seem wise to hang on to my ticket until I arrived at my FINAL destination.

As I stated in an above post, I have around 8 tickets in my purse from previous occassions which show the regularity of the journey I make. Would these make any difference or would they not really relate?

Really annoyed at how stupid I have been.

I don't think that will tend to sway it, but you never know.

 

[mrscherry]

Thanks for all your responses anyhow. I'll be posting again for some advice when I receive the letter

 

[snail]

No, I meant the destination on the 8 tickets you say you have kept. If it shows you regularly travel to Lime St or Birkenhead N. then that could carry some weight. If it's Edge Hill then I would say nothing.

 

[mrscherry]

The tickets I have in my purse are mainly my return destination from birkenhead north to thatto heath, others consist of wavertree to birkenhead, liverpool to thatto heath, liverpool to birkenhead etc...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

there we go

 

[GadgetMan]

I may not be reading the dates correctly on those tickets as the picture isn't brilliant. But if the dates are what I think they are then those tickets may do more harm than good to your case if you sent them in.

 

[ian13]

The tickets I have in my purse are mainly my return destination from birkenhead north to thatto heath, others consist of wavertree to birkenhead, liverpool to thatto heath, liverpool to birkenhead etc...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

there we go

If you make 8 journeys a week, given the sparsity of those tickets they won't support a claim of regular payment!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Unless I have missed something, this is what Northern were doing.
Northern know lots of people don't buy tickets till they get to Liverpool. They know lots of people ask for tickets from Edge Hill even though they have come from further away. By buying a ticket from Edge Hill instead of where they really started from they avoid paying the correct fare and hence commit a criminal offence.
To try and catch - and prosecute people - they put staff on all the entrances so it is physically not possible to enter the station without a ticket or voucher or leaflet etc.
Thus, when people turn up at Liverpool and ask for a ticket from Edge Hill they know that they must have a ticket or leaflet, and if they do not they must have started further away and are trying to avoid paying the correct fare.
They will be assuming that you have done this, and by not having the ticket for the previous part of the journey it is very difficult for you to prove otherwise.
This is the more serious of the possible offences as it could lead to a criminal record.
The lesser offence is a simple Byelaw offence of joining a train without a valid ticket when you had the chance to buy one before boarding, which you are still guilty of but does not lead to a criminal record and can be less costly. However, Northern may choose to push the more serious offence unless they have good reason not to, which sadly without your original ticket and the nature of their "sting" operation means it is very difficult to prove otherwise.

 

[SussexMan]

...which sadly without your original ticket and the nature of their "sting" operation means it is very difficult to prove otherwise.

Isn't it equally, if not more difficult, for Northern to prove that the OP didn't undertake the journey as claimed? And isn't the onus on Northern to give evidence to substantiate their claim?

The OP's story does sound "weak" to me. However, as you have not got the original ticket, have you not got some evidence that you had been in Thatto Heath earlier? Why were you there? Do you live there? Had you been to see a friend there? Did you spend some money on a card there and have the receipt? How did you get to Thatto Heath in the first place if you don't live there? Surely that sort of info is going to be of much more help to you than simply saying. I didn't go through the station entrance as I arrived by train but as I arrived my plans changed and I found a bin (NR rail pictures prominently show bins on the platform) so threw away the ticket and got on another train (without buying a ticket which I realise now I should have done).


Also, surely TOCs should hand out tickets (in return for money!) when they carry out an exercise like this. Do the slips of paper carry any legal weight? Are people told exactly what the slips are or are they expected to read them. Why don't they just put up a sign saying "you must buy a ticket" and then put someone on the entrance checking tickets to make sure that no one gets to the platform without a ticket.

 

[34D]

Also, surely TOCs should hand out tickets (in return for money!) when they carry out an exercise like this. Do the slips of paper carry any legal weight? Are people told exactly what the slips are or are they expected to read them. Why don't they just put up a sign saying "you must buy a ticket" and then put someone on the entrance checking tickets to make sure that no one gets to the platform without a ticket.

Ah yes, but that way the TOC gets say £3 for peoples journeys. Threatening prosecution like this, they get £500 in out of court settlements per person.

 

[mrscherry]

Unless I have missed something, this is what Northern were doing.
Northern know lots of people don't buy tickets till they get to Liverpool. They know lots of people ask for tickets from Edge Hill even though they have come from further away. By buying a ticket from Edge Hill instead of where they really started from they avoid paying the correct fare and hence commit a criminal offence.
To try and catch - and prosecute people - they put staff on all the entrances so it is physically not possible to enter the station without a ticket or voucher or leaflet etc.
Thus, when people turn up at Liverpool and ask for a ticket from Edge Hill they know that they must have a ticket or leaflet, and if they do not they must have started further away and are trying to avoid paying the correct fare.
They will be assuming that you have done this, and by not having the ticket for the previous part of the journey it is very difficult for you to prove otherwise.
This is the more serious of the possible offences as it could lead to a criminal record.
The lesser offence is a simple Byelaw offence of joining a train without a valid ticket when you had the chance to buy one before boarding, which you are still guilty of but does not lead to a criminal record and can be less costly. However, Northern may choose to push the more serious offence unless they have good reason not to, which sadly without your original ticket and the nature of their "sting" operation means it is very difficult to prove otherwise.

Have you ever been to edge hill stattion? No you obviously havent because if you had you would know there is only one entrance/exit to the station. It is a pretty big station which has around 3/4 platforms. My train comes into the station and I walk across the pavement to the other side to catch the train going the opposite way. No bridges, no under walkways, NOTHING.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't it equally, if not more difficult, for Northern to prove that the OP didn't undertake the journey as claimed? And isn't the onus on Northern to give evidence to substantiate their claim?

The OP's story does sound "weak" to me. However, as you have not got the original ticket, have you not got some evidence that you had been in Thatto Heath earlier? Why were you there? Do you live there? Had you been to see a friend there? Did you spend some money on a card there and have the receipt? How did you get to Thatto Heath in the first place if you don't live there? Surely that sort of info is going to be of much more help to you than simply saying. I didn't go through the station entrance as I arrived by train but as I arrived my plans changed and I found a bin (NR rail pictures prominently show bins on the platform) so threw away the ticket and got on another train (without buying a ticket which I realise now I should have done).


Also, surely TOCs should hand out tickets (in return for money!) when they carry out an exercise like this. Do the slips of paper carry any legal weight? Are people told exactly what the slips are or are they expected to read them. Why don't they just put up a sign saying "you must buy a ticket" and then put someone on the entrance checking tickets to make sure that no one gets to the platform without a ticket.

Jesus christ, feel like I am being judged here for a 'crime' I didn't even commit! I live in thatto heath by the way. The train station is about 10 minutes from my house. Why are you assuming all these things 'like how have i got to thatto heath if i dont live there' I never mentioned whether I did/did not live there????

 

[island]

Jesus christ, feel like I am being judged here for a 'crime' I didn't even commit! I live in thatto heath by the way. The train station is about 10 minutes from my house. Why are you assuming all these things 'like how have i got to thatto heath if i dont live there' I never mentioned whether I did/did not live there????

I'm sorry you feel that way, but it must be remembered that from all appearances you have committed a crime.

Please read the posts as trying to help you to validate your story for when Northern, or a court, starts writing to you. You will need to be certain of these things and more if questioned.