Ticket activation

[Luke Regan]

hello all,

So yesterday I travelled to Cheltenham and bought a ticket via my phone. When I got off the train at Cheltenham, staff were checking tickets. The member of staff stated that mine was invalid as I had not activated the ticket, and then took my details and a picture of ID advising that Cross Country Rail would be in touch. For what it’s worth, the ticket was subsequently activated - so it has been paid fully and wouldn’t be able to refund the ticket. Also, my friend also bought a ticket via phone , and his ticket didn’t even need to be activated - although it did look slightly different to mine.

What I’m asking is - how long will it take to hear from then, and what will they want from me / do?

Thanks all

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The requirement is for you to have a valid ticket when you travel. You didn't, so potentially you are in trouble. And it could be up to six months before you know. That's because if the railway want to take you to court over this, they have six months to do so. If they offer you some other sort of informal settlement, in effect they have to do it in six months as without the threat of taking you to court you can ignore their invitation to give them money (but to emphasise, it's ONLY safe to ignore it AFTER SIX MONTHS).

More realistically, you will probably hear from them in two or three months time. In the first place, they will ask you if there is anything they can tell you as to why they shouldn't prosecute. As a hint, 'my friend's ticket was different' will almost certainly not get you off.

The railway will then probably write to you again. If you are lucky, they will offer you the chance to settle for the train fare plus the costs the railway has incurred. This will come to a total of around £100 as the costs tend to be about £80. If you are not lucky, or you refuse to settle, they will then take you to court. As you did not have a valid ticket, they will win in court and you will have to pay a fine, court costs and the train fare. This is very likely to be more than the offer they may have made earlier.

If you are very, very lucky, you may not hear anything more about the matter. But as above, you can only be certain it has gone away after six months.

 

[Luke Regan]

Thanks for the response. There’s no question of me refusing to settle at all so hopefully that’s what happens. Would it be worth initiating first contact with the company to affirm this?

The requirement is for you to have a valid ticket when you travel. You didn't, so potentially you are in trouble. And it could be up to six months before you know. That's because if the railway want to take you to court over this, they have six months to do so. If they offer you some other sort of informal settlement, in effect they have to do it in six months as without the threat of taking you to court you can ignore their invitation to give them money (but to emphasise, it's ONLY safe to ignore it AFTER SIX MONTHS).

More realistically, you will probably hear from them in two or three months time. In the first place, they will ask you if there is anything they can tell you as to why they shouldn't prosecute. As a hint, 'my friend's ticket was different' will almost certainly not get you off.

The railway will then probably write to you again. If you are lucky, they will offer you the chance to settle for the train fare plus the costs the railway has incurred. This will come to a total of around £100 as the costs tend to be about £80. If you are not lucky, or you refuse to settle, they will then take you to court. As you did not have a valid ticket, they will win in court and you will have to pay a fine, court costs and the train fare. This is very likely to be more than the offer they may have made earlier.

If you are very, very lucky, you may not hear anything more about the matter. But as above, you can only be certain it has gone away after six months.

 

[Luke Regan]

Thanks for the response - yeah completely understand the issue re the ticket not being activated - and am happy to pay any fine. Just don’t want to end up with a criminal record on the back of it all really - would you say this is realistic?

 

[Haywain]

What I’m asking is - how long will it take to hear from then, and what will they want from me / do?

I think that Fawkes Cat has covered this fairly well in his post, although I would say expect to hear from them in 4 to 6 weeks. Then respond expressing contrition and a willingness to settle the matter by covering their costs and paying the fare due.

 

[najaB]

There’s no question of me refusing to settle at all so hopefully that’s what happens. Would it be worth initiating first contact with the company to affirm this?

Not really, no. It can take anything up to a couple of weeks for the case to end up on the desk of a handler so contacting them beforehand won't be of much benefit.

 

[Hadders]

The best thing to do is to wait until the letter arrives from the rail company. The letter will say they’re considering prosecution but will ask for your version of events before making a decision.

I recommend writing a short, concise letter apologising for the situation and saying that you have learned that tickets need to be activated before travel. Say that you are keen to settle the matter and are willing to pay the outstanding fare plus the conpany’s reasonable administrative costs in dealing with the matter. Don’t go into a sob story, refer to your friends ticket or look for excuses as you know you are in the wrong.

Hopefully you will then be offered an administrative settlement to keep the matter out of court.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just to add, there isn't any risk of a criminal record in this case. That's because you paid your fare when you bought your ticket - and therefore they cannot prosecute under the more serious Regulation of Railways Act 1889, conviction under which would result in a criminal record for one year. However, they can prosecute under Byelaw 18(2), which has the same financial penalty (a fine of typically between 75-150% your weekly income), but just no criminal record.

That being said, unless the train company demands an exorbitant fee to settle, and your income is very low, settling out of Court is likely to be the cheaper option.

 

[londonboi198o5]

Best to not contact them until they have made first contact with you.
It could take weeks before you hear anything from them. So best thing to do just now is put it to the back of your mind and just carrying on as normal. If you can start putting some money aside so that when the time comes (if it comes to an amount) you have the money ready to pay of any amount they are asking to clear the matter up.

 

[furlong]

under Byelaw 18(2).

Rather 18(1)

In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
...
“valid ticket” means a ticket (including any associated photo/identity card and/or other travel document) lawfully obtained by or on behalf of the person using or attempting to use it and entitling that person to use the particular railway service he is using or attempting to use. Where the terms attaching to the ticket require validation of the ticket, such ticket shall not be considered to be a valid ticket for the purposes of these Byelaws unless and until the ticket has been properly validated.

In other words, such an offence would be complete after you entered the train - long before you encountered the inspectors. (If you boarded at a station without ticketing facilities, it would get more interesting.) (There's also a small ambiguity there as to whether or not 'activation' is the same thing as 'validation'.)

 

[_toommm_]

Unfortunately, tickets do need to be downloaded and activated before use - I tend to see this more and more on the trains I get on where they aren't activated. It's much the same way as if you didn't collect your tickets from a ticket vending machine, or didn't print off the self-print ones.

When they do reply to you, make sure to show remorse and apologise, and hopefully they will give you an out-of-court settlement, but be prepared for it to be a fair bit more than the original cost of your ticket..

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Rather 18(1)



In other words, such an offence would be complete after you entered the train - long before you encountered the inspectors. (If you boarded at a station without ticketing facilities, it would get more interesting.) (There's also a small ambiguity there as to whether or not 'activation' is the same thing as 'validation'.)

Ah well, they could prosecute under either I suppose. I had it in my mind that they'd go for 18(2) since the issue was detected at the end of the journey, when the OP was no longer onboard a train.

 

[furlong]

18(2) struggles if they did "hand over" their ticket (which hadn't been validated) for its validity to be verified (as not valid).

 

[MotCO]

The only thing I would add is to jot down what actually happened whilst it is still fresh in your mind. Then when you are asked for your events you will have a draft to hand.

 

[Luke Regan]

Bit confused here - this morning there was 59 responses that I found useful - but now most of them have gone

 

[Luke Regan]

Bit confused here - this morning there was 59 responses that I found useful - but now most of them have gone

Any idea where the responses would have gone folks?

 

[najaB]

Any idea where the responses would have gone folks?

Sounds like the mods have done a thread tidy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thread has been split to: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/standards-for-m-and-e-tickets.179957/#post-3926852

 

[Luke Regan]

Hi all,

I have now received my letter from Transport Investigations - attached. They have also sent some other stuff (attached) and highlighted 2 lines - would these be the things I haven’t adhered to?

I have drafted up a response as below, just wondering if anyone could have a read and amend where necessary?

*************************
In response to the letter received from yourselves on *****


On 13/3/19, I travelled to Cheltenham

Spa from Wolverhampton - to go to the Cheltenham Racing Festival. I bought my ticket on the train line app (return from Wolverhampton to Cheltenham Spa)

When we got off the train at Cheltenham, ticket checks took place, which point I showed my phone ticket. However, it transpired that I had forgotten to ‘activate’ the ticket - and was informed by a member of Cross Country staff that the ticket as a result hadn’t been valid (I said I would activate it there and then but was reminded that the ticket had still been invalid for the journey undertaken)


The lady then took my details and got me to sign, before then letting me continue on my way (at this point I then activated the ticket - given that I had used it and would need to use it for the return journey)


Ultimately I can’t fault the member of staff as the ticket was invalid, with the ticket activation issue being a clear and obvious error on my part - one that I am sorry for and will ensure doesn’t happen during any future travels.


If possible, I would prefer to settle the matter out of court / without any creation of a criminal record. As a result, I would be keen to compensate Cross Country financially in the form of a settlement that you judge as appropriate.


Yours sincerely,

Luke Regan

 

[najaB]

Seems a reasonable response.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I agree with najaB.

The only thing that I would add is to say that 'This is the first time (I) have had any issue like this with train tickets and will ensure that it is not repeated'

Good luck

 

[mafeu]

Was your ticket definitely an m-ticket? If it was rather an e-ticket, then it’ll show up in apps as requiring download and activation. However, a PDF ticket will have been e-mailed to you.

 

[Haywain]

Was your ticket definitely an m-ticket? If it was rather an e-ticket, then it’ll show up in apps as requiring download and activation. However, a PDF ticket will have been e-mailed to you.

Answered in the very first post on the thread:

For what it’s worth, the ticket was subsequently activated

 

[mafeu]

Answered in the very first post on the thread:

Not quite. My post is asking for clarification. It is possible that the poster may have an e-ticket. An e-ticket will show in the app as requiring download and activation like an m-ticket. If the poster had an e-ticket, then I think the point re activation is moot as a valid ticket will be sat in their inbox.

 

[Haywain]

Not quite. My post is asking for clarification. It is possible that the poster may have an e-ticket. An e-ticket will show in the app as requiring download and activation like an m-ticket. If the poster had an e-ticket, then I think the point re activation is moot as a valid ticket will be sat in their inbox.

Wrong. e-tickets do not require activation. The OP states that the ticket was shown to the inspector, and subsequently activated after the inspector had pointed out that it was not valid because it had not been activated. Therefore it must have been an m-ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wrong. e-tickets do not require activation. The OP states that the ticket was shown to the inspector, and subsequently activated after the inspector had pointed out that it was not valid because it had not been activated. Therefore it must have been an m-ticket.

Some TOCs, including LNR, will allow you to "convert" an e-ticket to an m-ticket by downloading it in their app. Due to the technology involved it still requires activating to show the barcode, but importantly does not lose its validity as an e-ticket when you "convert" it to an m-ticket, has the same barcode and can still be used as an e-ticket using the PDF file you get e-mailed if you prefer. Downloading in this manner and activating does not exclude its download and use on another device as I understand it (might be wrong).

Other TOCs show e-tickets in their app as e-tickets with no activation option.

This may be what happened here.

 

[Luke Regan]

So I have had the following reply which seems to suggest that they intend to prosecute under Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

I’m a bit confused by this as, as per the quote here, I did pay the correct fare for the ticket?

Just to add, there isn't any risk of a criminal record in this case. That's because you paid your fare when you bought your ticket - and therefore they cannot prosecute under the more serious Regulation of Railways Act 1889, conviction under which would result in a criminal record for one year. However, they can prosecute under Byelaw 18(2), which has the same financial penalty (a fine of typically between 75-150% your weekly income), but just no criminal record.

That being said, unless the train company demands an exorbitant fee to settle, and your income is very low, settling out of Court is likely to be the cheaper option.

Any further advice?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The allegations seem wrong to me. To me you did pay the fare due. You simply committed an administrative error in failing to activate the ticket. So I'm surprised they are attempting RoRA rather than a Byelaw prosecution.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So I have had the following reply which seems to suggest that they intend to prosecute under Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

I’m a bit confused by this as, as per the quote here, I did pay the correct fare for the ticket?



Any further advice?

This is standard TIL bark (which has no bite, to steal another poster's turn of phrase).

You paid your fare so RoRA simply doesn't come into it. There is no way an offence under that is made out. They send this kind of stock response to many people - have a browse through recent D&P threads involving TIL.

It's worth reiterating what you initially responded to them. Despite what they say, it is still perfectly possible to avoid Court, as we have seen in many peoples' cases. It's by no means guaranteed but in a situation such as this I see no reason why they would not consider a settlement.

 

[Luke Regan]

This is standard TIL bark (which has no bite, to steal another poster's turn of phrase).

You paid your fare so RoRA simply doesn't come into it. There is no way an offence under that is made out. They send this kind of stock response to many people - have a browse through recent D&P threads involving TIL.

It's worth reiterating what you initially responded to them. Despite what they say, it is still perfectly possible to avoid Court, as we have seen in many peoples' cases. It's by no means guaranteed but in a situation such as this I see no reason why they would not consider a settlement.


With respect, that is a load of speculation. RoRA doesn't in any way require you to have effectively 'mutilated' your ticket (as it might in other countries). The idea of a ticket simply doesn't even enter into RoRA. It's about the payment of the fare, nothing else; payment was made when the contract for travel was entered into.

If they wanted, the railway could even never issue a ticket at all, as fare as RoRA is concerned (cf 'free rides' for staff).

Right - thanks for the response, very helpful.

I’m not really sure how to phrase any response given that I’m ultimately going to be telling them that they are wrong to be referencing RoRA.. would it literally be a case of stating that ‘whilst the ticket was invalid due to not being activated, this is not relevant to RoRA as the ticket in question had been paid via the Train Line app ?