Ticket gates in the West Midlands

[bengolding]

With London Midland having installed automatic ticket gates at a number of stations in the West Midlands, the current operation of manual checks is woefully inadequate. They appear to leave at about 19:00, making it a free-for-all after that as checks are so rare on expresses in the West Midlands.

Coventry station used to have some trial gates, which have now been removed. Only very rarely are there manual checks at Birmingham International (during major events) and Wolves.

Are there no plans in place to install ticket gates at stations such as Coventry, Birmingham International, New St and Wolves? LM seem to be keen on the idea, but I get the impression that VT don't like them at their stations (very different policy to that of East Midlands Trains).

 

[ian959]

To be honest it would be nearly impossible to install ticket gates at Wolverhampton given the relatively narrow entrance onto the platform, plus the fact that you could bypass the gates through the cafe for most of the day.

Been through Wolverhampton station probably 30 times in the last five months and never had my ticket checked. Then again I have been through New Street a few times when the gates were completely unmanned and even when they are manned they barely glance at the tickets let alone really check them.

Often wonder how much revenue is lost through Wolverhampton station.

 

[87015]

Coventry station used to have some trial gates, which have now been removed. Only very rarely are there manual checks at Birmingham International (during major events) and Wolves.

Are there no plans in place to install ticket gates at stations such as Coventry, Birmingham International, New St and Wolves? LM seem to be keen on the idea, but I get the impression that VT don't like them at their stations (very different policy to that of East Midlands Trains).

Covenrty gates were removed as Virgin found they were protecting Central Trains revenue more than their own so demanded Central contribute to the cost of manning them. Central told them to go jump so out they came..... Wonderful system isn't it!

 

[Lampshade]

I've not seen gates at any VT stations, most of them would be quite difficult to barrier I'd imagine, the way Preston is laid out for example would make barriers impossible; all the platforms are bidirectional so if there's a last minute platform change (happens quite frequently), it'd be absolute bedlam. Same story at Lancaster and Oxenholme, and in fact on most of the WCML.

 

[SWT Driver]

Personally I think it's about time that ticket gates and I mean ones which are about 5' (1,5m) high (Anti-Vault) were installed in ALL but the smallest of stations to prevent fraudulent travel, I also think it should be made a part of the franchise to have them manned from start of service to end of service as well, as this would deter the yobbos, drunks & other neanderthals being a nuisance to fare paying passengers & staff alike.

 

[asylumxl]

Personally I think it's about time that ticket gates and I mean ones which are about 5' (1,5m) high (Anti-Vault) were installed in ALL but the smallest of stations to prevent fraudulent travel, I also think it should be made a part of the franchise to have them manned from start of service to end of service as well, as this would deter the yobbos, drunks & other neanderthals being a nuisance to fare paying passengers & staff alike.

How about stopping TOCs selling alcohol onboard their trains? That's where the main drunken nuisances come from, and there is nothing other passengers can do about it.

 

[mumrar]

How about stopping TOCs selling alcohol onboard their trains? That's where the main drunken nuisances come from, and there is nothing other passengers can do about it.

Do you have any facts to back this statement up. In the twelve years I've been a guard the only drunk people I've had trouble have been drunk long before getting near a trolley service.

 

[Lampshade]

Personally I think it's about time that ticket gates and I mean ones which are about 5' (1,5m) high (Anti-Vault) were installed in ALL but the smallest of stations to prevent fraudulent travel, I also think it should be made a part of the franchise to have them manned from start of service to end of service as well, as this would deter the yobbos, drunks & other neanderthals being a nuisance to fare paying passengers & staff alike.

All that would succeed in doing is driving more people to using their cars. The public backlash to that would be horrific, it's bad enough with standard gates, also I'm liking the generalisation that all fare dodgers are "yobbos, drunks and other neanderthals", so if you want to kill the railway, suggest that to Lord Adonis

 

[Mintona]

Personally I think it's about time that ticket gates and I mean ones which are about 5' (1,5m) high (Anti-Vault) were installed in ALL but the smallest of stations to prevent fraudulent travel, I also think it should be made a part of the franchise to have them manned from start of service to end of service as well, as this would deter the yobbos, drunks & other neanderthals being a nuisance to fare paying passengers & staff alike.

This would be brilliant.

 

[SWT Driver]

All that would succeed in doing is driving more people to using their cars. The public backlash to that would be horrific, it's bad enough with standard gates, also I'm liking the generalisation that all fare dodgers are "yobbos, drunks and other neanderthals", so if you want to kill the railway, suggest that to Lord Adonis

Nice to see someone condoning fare evasion, yobbish behaviour, staff assaults, vandalism, fouling of platforms with urine, faeces & vomit ...

Most if not all fare paying passengers would be quite glad to see measures like the gates being on from the start of service to end of service if it means an end to that sort of thing, the only people who tend to object is those who condone that sort of behaviour.

 

[Lampshade]

Nice to see someone condoning fare evasion....

So anyone who objects to barriers is a fare dodger - no, just not wanting to be tarred with the same brush and restricted by cattle pens at the railway station. What they do is punish the majority for the actions of the minority, which is like banning all primary school pupils from taking sweets for breaktime because 1 or 2 are littering, we are adults now and I, among others will not tolerate being labelled a fare dodger, it's verging on false accusation. It's a typical SWT attitude - everyone is a fare dodger, treat passengers like dirt and maximise profits.

EDIT: So all of York and all of Sheffield are fare dodgers because they don't want cattle pens at their railway stations, get a clue

 

[Shrub Hill]

i was travelling from paignton to teignmouth last month, me and my partner got on the train 10 mins before departure and there were two lads sat in opposite seats, the guard comes down after departure asking for tickets, "oh can i have...." now the guard says i saw you get on the train 15 mins before we left and you have not bought a ticket , they were both about 13 and both pulled out exactly the right amount of money, clearly this is not the first time they have travelled this route so why, when there are signs all over the place telling you to buy your ticket before hand, were they not walloped with a fine, teaches them nothing except well "we will have a go as it won't cost us anything" attitude. personally i am all for ticket barriers and platform tickets and harsh enforced fines for those that try and pull a fast one

 

[SWT Driver]

In principal yes.

If you object to putting your ticket through a machine to ensure that you have a valid ticket for your journey, then there's something wrong with you.

A ticket barrier just replaces a man in the box, it's a cost effective way to prevent fraudulent travel, which costs millions of pounds a year, something that every taxpayer has to pay for.

The railways are not a state run charity anymore, something that you seem to think they are, they're private companies and they're doing exactly what private companies do which is make money for shareholders.

I don't like giving free rides to anyone, I'm not a charity & nor's SWT or any other TOC. If you don't like it (having your ticket checked by machine or person) then catch a bus or drive, I really don't care which option you choose, just don't come on to the railway, because by failing to present a valid ticket when you're asked is a criminal offence.

 

[daccer]

ticket gates will i am sure be fitted in all but the smallest unmanned stations before long as I am sure the TOC's view them as being self financing. Frankly I do find the attitude that gates are intrusive or a restriction on civil liberties to be slightly contradictory. It does I think go back to our puzzling attitude to railways in general. For some reason we love to denigrate the system and moan about the cost of travelling by rail but then we complain about genuine attempts to catch fare dodgers. Of course the TOC's could do more and frankly I find it amazing that on board staff arent held to account more often for not checking tickets on trains but i cant believe that anyone could object to putting a ticket into a machine to gain access to a station. When was the last time you could access the air side of an airport without a boarding pass or the last time you got on the Chunnel or a ferry for free. Why are Network rail stations any different to any other form of transport. There are some unique circumstances that need a little common sense maybe (sheffield etc) but I cant see how any genuine fare paying traveller can begrudge putting a ticket through a barrier.

 

[Lampshade]

i was travelling from paignton to teignmouth last month, me and my partner got on the train 10 mins before departure and there were two lads sat in opposite seats, the guard comes down after departure asking for tickets, "oh can i have...." now the guard says i saw you get on the train 15 mins before we left and you have not bought a ticket , they were both about 13 and both pulled out exactly the right amount of money, clearly this is not the first time they have travelled this route so why, when there are signs all over the place telling you to buy your ticket before hand, were they not walloped with a fine, teaches them nothing except well "we will have a go as it won't cost us anything" attitude. personally i am all for ticket barriers and platform tickets and harsh enforced fines for those that try and pull a fast one

Now THAT I agree with, it offers a compromise between total exclusion and being able to see people onto the train/enthusiasts etc.

It's not having my ticket checked that gets my goat, it's the whole 'big brother' processing each passenger and the feeling of exclusion that they bring. I welcome having my ticket checked by a human and I actually welcome ticket barriers at suburban and commuter stations, it's intercity stations where I can't stand them, railway stations are not airports.

 

[SWT Driver]

There's a similar problem at Guildford to Sheffield.

I that the damned lazy oinks of Guildford Park Road & its environs including the even lazier student fraternity of UoS think that a bridge pass is a valid ticket to travel &/or that the passimeter bridge passes that are issued act as a permit to travel. It doesn't.

It therefore doesn't come as a surprise that Guildford has the unenviable record as having the most trouble on it and that's because the gate lines are unmanned after 2030/2100, it therefore becomes the perfect place for all of the troglodytes & neanderthals & freeloaders in the area.

They did a test a while back and locked the Park Road entrance/exit to see if it would reduce trouble & freeloading, it did & quite a few were busted for fare evasion too. YES!

Now I've posted this after 91107's posted a response, I'd like to point out there's no difference between a so called "Inter-City" station & a commuter station, except that an IC station has passengers who're travelling long distance & are intrinsically worth more.

The simple fact that IC trains travel further means that the fares will be higher than a commuter service & therefore it's even more important to protect revenue. Is there a station on the network that's served purely by IC services?

 

[Lampshade]

Drunks/yobbos/youths =/= fare dodgers though, buying a ticket does not stop them being total **** on the train does it?

 

[Death]

Working off of my experiences of using Birmingham New St, I'd say that ticket barriers aren't that suitable for use on Intercity services, mainly because of large the volume of passengers turning up in a relatively short space of time for any particular train (To say nothing of the volume of trains per hour) and the time that it can take to rectify a gate or ticket fault. :?

Trying to install gates at Birmingham NS would be a very bad idea because of the limited entrance space available, which probabally can't be widened on account of the fact that the station structure also bears the weight of the shopping centre above it. Even if they made the inner concourse a publicly accessible area and put gates on the stairways down to the platforms, there'd still be massive airline-style queues forming as people try and cram through the four gates available per platform! hock:

When they installed the gates at Waterloo (Which in themselves cause a lot of congestion) they removed a lot of the retail units next to the platforms to make extra space. However I doubt that would be a plausable or even possible option at New St. :?

Personally I think it's about time that ticket gates and I mean ones which are about 5' (1,5m) high (Anti-Vault) were installed in ALL but the smallest of stations to prevent fraudulent travel.

Personally, I disagree. Although I'm perfectly happy with (And support) the current design of gate, the "anti vault" type would cause just as much hassle for legitimate travellers as it does for fare evaders...Aside from the fact that it'd make many booking offices and platforms look like Checkpoint Charlie, or the inmate entrance to a prison! :roll:

Now as it is, I always travel with a valid ticket...Normally a ticket purchased in advance. However I tend to have a foul degree of luck when it comes to time, and even if I aim to be at the station fifteen minutes before departure, circumstances beyond my control do sometimes mean that I arrive there at the same time as my train. In such circumstances where the train is literally just about to depart, being able to vault the gate and get straight onto the train is very convenient for me...And the same applies on the Underground, too.
Does that make me a fare evader? No it does not...Because I'm already in possession of a valid ticket for the journey being made, and in such instances I normally show my ticket to the guard immediateley after boarding so that (s)he can see that I'm not "Effing" it. 8)

Also, "vault proof" gates are a fallacy in themselves. Such gates are used on the MTA Subway in New York, but when I went there a couple of years ago I had a go at vaulting a few demonstration gates that they'd set up in the subway museum. Not only did I find those gates easy to vault, but their design actually made it easier for me to do so! hock:

 

[SWT Driver]

No, but the gates that you seem so vehemently opposed to having installed helps cut that down and that's a proven fact.

You only need to enter the areas that I do in the suburban area to make you realise how much of a it makes to the safety of the crew & passengers.

Southern are the sinners as they leave a side gate open at Leatherhead & all of the trouble enters/exits through it.

Guildford they all just change trains at the mainline station & then catch the first available to London Road & get off there, it's at the top of the town & it's all downhill to the shops, clubs & pubs!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Death, don't try doing it on the Paris Metro.

The last time I was there a scroat did it and he didn't get very far before being apprehended & slung straight back out again. At Paris GDN, the entrance to the metro has gates that are over 6' (2m) tall, definitely un-vaultable.

 

[Lampshade]

Manual ticket checks on the underground/metro are hugely impractical (Euston, six platforms, let's say about 500 people every five minutes), hence ticket barriers are a necessity.

 

[Death]

Death, don't try doing it on the Paris Metro.
The last time I was there a scroat did it and he didn't get very far before being apprehended & slung straight back out again. At Paris GDN, the entrance to the metro has gates that are over 6' (2m) tall, definitely un-vaultable.

I last used the Paris Métro about 11 years ago, but even back then both the entrance gates and exit turnstiles stretched from floor to ceiling. At the time I thought this was a very good idea to stop FE'ing in it's tracks.

At the same time however, I wouldn't have a problem with just missing a Méteor as they run with a 5-7 minute headway, and it wouldn't be a problem to wait for the next one. On the other hand, just missing a VWC service with a 90-minute frequency would be a different matter altogether...And it's to avoid the latter where I'd consider vaulting to be a valid tack, if the passenger already holds a valid ticket of course.

Incidentally...I wonder if a 6' high barrier would be allowed at all, given that they have to be easily passible in either direction without fail during an emergency?

Manual ticket checks on the underground/metro are hugely impractical (Euston, six platforms, let's say about 500 people every five minutes), hence ticket barriers are a necessity.

In my experience, the manual checks performed at Birmingham NS manage to check more tickets per minute than the average CTS gate...And that's of course putting aside the fact that the average gate needs attendance from gateline staff at least three times an hour - When clearing ticket jams, assisting passengers who don't know how to operate the gates, and dealing with odd error codes etc.

 

[snowhill]

Harking back to the original topic, barriers have been installed at Birmingham Moor Street for 6/8 weeks but when I was last there, a week or two ago, they had not been commisioned although its clear from posters that they are about to be.

Logically, Snow Hill should also be barriered, and probably has been, but it's quite a while since I was last there.

Will try and visit both over the coming days.

Dave

 

[Old Timer]

All that would succeed in doing is driving more people to using their cars. The public backlash to that would be horrific, it's bad enough with standard gates, also I'm liking the generalisation that all fare dodgers are "yobbos, drunks and other neanderthals", so if you want to kill the railway, suggest that to Lord Adonis

Errr....sorry ?

The biggest thing that puts off punters is the number of scrotes who are allowed to hang about stations without let or hindrance, bring with them an unpleasant atmosphere which to many people is construed as (and can be) threatening.

In certain suburban areas, the availability of cheap tickets and/or the lack of any form of access control means that the Railway and its trains become an extended "territory" which the scum use at leisure.

Having checked your age you are obviously not familiar with the fact that it is only in recent years that stations have had ticket barriers removed and been de-manned. Prior to that except on the smallest stations you had to pass through a barrier, and I do not recall mass rioting from punters who objected.

Stalin had a saying..."remove the man, remove the problem"...for man read undesirables, hoodies, scrotes, and ne'er do wells.

One South Amercian country I can think of has barriers at every station, and a very rigourously enforced policy of not tolerating unruly behaviour, managed from behind a gun.

Strangely enough THEIR stations and trains are not sprayed, vandalised, or turned into open public conveniences by feral yobs who see nothing wrong with urinating on seats on the last trains at night. It is actually quite safe to be on and about the railway system at night, something that cannot be said with surity in the UK.

 

[Death]

Harking back to the original topic, barriers have been installed at Birmingham Moor Street for 6/8 weeks but when I was last there, a week or two ago, they had not been commisioned although its clear from posters that they are about to be.

Logically, Snow Hill should also be barriered, and probably has been, but it's quite a while since I was last there.

I forgot to mention about Moor St, but aye - It has had barriers put in. They still hadn't been commissioned as of the 8th of this month, though.

As for Snow Hill; That also has barriers that were operational when I used the station on the above date, albeit they'd only been turned on after I'd entered the station to check my departure time, then gone back out the front again for a smoke! Does that mean that Chiltern are frightened of my presence?...

The biggest thing that puts off punters is the number of scrotes who are allowed to hang about stations without let or hindrance, bring with them an unpleasant atmosphere which to many people is construed as (and can be) threatening.

That was something else that I'd forgotton to mention; That most stations used to have manual ticket inspection up until around the mid 70's.
I wonder why BR decided first to scrap the manual gates, then privatised TOCs chose to fit those painfully slow automatic ones in their place - Rather than going back to the older, but faster and much better system?

 

[87015]

I think the argument for manual barriers is totally destroyed by the "fine" collection of low wage staff they employ to man them. They don't, in my experience, seem particularly good at acting as much of a ticket check or a deterrent. See New St for details.....

 

[SWT Driver]

The automatic gates read the magnetic strip on the back of the ticket, unless you can recode the strip you won't be able to fiddle.

A mans eyes can be deceived occasionally, a machine that requires a magnetic strip isn't fooled by a printed copy of a ticket.

We know it goes on as one or two dimwits have found out when eagle-eyed RPIs picked up minor faults on their counterfeit tickets, the results were heavy fines & a pair of suspended jail terms.

 

[Death]

The automatic gates read the magnetic strip on the back of the ticket, unless you can recode the strip you won't be able to fiddle.
A mans eyes can be deceived occasionally, a machine that requires a magnetic strip isn't fooled by a printed copy of a ticket.

Before I go on, I'll state that - Though I possess the skills to be able to do so - I'd never try counterfeiting a ticket. Now that's out of the way...

The magnetic strips on the rear of APTIS tickets are fairly easy to alter, if one has suitable equipment (The heads out of an old cassette deck and a PC, generally) and knows a little about magnetic stripe encoding.

Although I've never actually tried it myself, my understanding is that no part of the tickets data is encrypted in any way, shape or form, and consequently all of the details held upon it would be easy for a Hacker/Cracker to interperet and adjust to their needs.
For example; Changing just a few bytes on the mag-strip of a discarded one-day Travelcard would allow the ticket to be reused on another date of the crackers choosing. Of course, said cracker would find himself in a bit of a hole if anyone decided to inspect his ticket manually (Unless he also changes the date on the thermal print side using a hot needle) but an automated gate wouldn't spot any difference between that and a valid, legitimate ticket! hock:

Like I said above; I'd never try and counterfeit/change a ticket in such a way, unless perhaps I was doing it with official permission and consent as part of a system security test.
On the other hand though, I've been considering using the magnetic stripes on my used tickets for the storage of small amounts of data and encryption keys etc, and - As far as I know - Such re-use of magnetic tickets for personal data storage would be well within the bounds of the Law, I believe. 8)

 

[Old Timer]

During the recessions period of the early 1980s BR was under a lot of financial pressure to reduce costs, like all other public services.

Sadly one of the easiest "wins" was to take out the barrier staff. The idea being that enhanced checks on trains would pick up and fare evasion.

In some areas of the Country, the local PTE, who was responsible for local services were the architects of the removal of barriers and ticket checks at stations under their control.

Labour-led PTEs were in the forefront and I remember getting into a lot of hot water when I insisted on staff checking tickets to and from trains, which was against PTE policy. I had also instigated tickets checks on services passing through the area, and in co-operation with the adjoining area we used to "lock down" the whole route. Having previously published posters warning people about ticketless travel, our RPIs then wrought havoc on "short-fares", which were all handed to the local BT Police, whom themselves were involved in the operation. None of this CPS nonesense in those days.

All of this was stopped at the insistence of the local PTE, who instructed that we must not check tickets, neither must we continue barrier checks. The nonesense was that I was directed to stop all the checks we were doing, although I had clear and defendable statistics to show an increase in ticket office revenue.

The end result was that the whole PTE are became just one large playground for scrotes who were travelling for nothing. One of the problems with them was that they would open doors on moving trains which either were struck by passing trains, or struck lineside structures or were left on the catch, thus requiring a line examination. This causing delays and disruption, as well as requiring a train to be taken out of service for repairs.

Indeed at one point it became so bad that we had trains which were solely being canibalised to provide replacement doors to keep the others in service.

Over the successive years revenue started to dwindle, vandalism increased, and there was an obvious reduction in genuine passengers who felt less and less secure, especially at night.

None of this of course mattered as a Political battle was being fought with the Government of the day, in which both the Railway, its revenue and its passengers were mere pawns. :roll::roll:

 

[matt]

Covenrty gates were removed as Virgin found they were protecting Central Trains revenue more than their own so demanded Central contribute to the cost of manning them. Central told them to go jump so out they came..... Wonderful system isn't it!

Plus Coventry wasn't really suited for automatic barriers as there could only be about 3 ticket barriers installed at the entrance resulting in long queues to exit the station. Not sure why they didn't put staff back on the gate.

 

[Old Timer]

........As far as I know - Such re-use of magnetic tickets for personal data storage would be well within the bounds of the Law, I believe. 8)

Legally the ticket belongs to the Company which issued it, and should be surrended upon completion of the journey.

Remember I am just the messenger !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Plus Coventry wasn't really suited for automatic barriers as there could only be about 3 ticket barriers installed at the entrance resulting in long queues to exit the station. Not sure why they didn't put staff back on the gate.

I think you will find that Centro (WMPTE) policy is no barriers, and no ticket checks.