Ticket inspector took a picture of my online ticket are they able to track me down?

[glasgowniteowl]

It's a little unclear, but the description suggests it might have been purchased AFTER it was asked to be shown - that would allow a PF to be issued, but the inspector ought to have made a contemporaneous note of the words used (or have evidence on camera) so as to easily rebut an appeal on this point.

It's digressing and possibly should have its own separate thread

But at what point are passengers considered as asked to show ticket and a purchase after is potentially liable for a PF

Is it:
When personally asked by inspector,
When Inspector enters carriage and announces tickets and passes ready please,
When departing station and immediately a PA announcement is made for all passengers to have tickets and passes ready

 

[WesternLancer]

The person involved there gave the correct details and was identified as the passenger committing the offence, and was prosecuted in their absence. An abundantly simple case.

In this case the train company have failed to identify the passenger on the train, who gave false details of a non-existent person, and their options for making any sort of inroads with this matter are very limited. This isn't the Pinkertons you're dealing with. Identifying a passenger is not that difficult, as the RPI can, if they are bothered, validate the details with electoral roll and credit score data - this is all they have to work with as we don't mandate carrying ID in this country. Evidently the RPI did not do that for whatever reason and that is too bad for the train company.

Depending on who the OP booked with the retailer may even tell the train company to bugger off and no they may not have their details, not that having that information is of much relevance to finding out which of the 70 million people living in this country they stopped on their train anyway.

However if it will make everyone feel better then the OP is at liberty to relieve themselves of fifty pounds to pay a Penalty Fare which, on the face of it, was issued wrongly anyway, as they had a valid ticket and even showed it to the RPI, who helpfully took a picture as evidence of the same.

All pertinent stuff of course

 

[RPI]

Can you cite any examples on the forum of anyone being tracked by a photo of their ticket, and prosecuted?

The train company can’t take any meaningful action by only knowing who purchased the ticket. That’s why revenue protection staff have to take steps to identify who they have actually stopped.

I'm telling you from experience, first hand, that this happens regularly where a ticket number for either an E-ticket or even a CCST ticket with a ToD collection reference can be used to track a person.

Body worn CCTV footage can be, and is, used for evidential purposes, it's really not difficult, booking details from an individual + video footage of a person and Identifying someone is easy, there is also open source information that can be used.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm telling you from experience, first hand, that this happens regularly where a ticket number for either an E-ticket or even a CCST ticket with a ToD collection reference can be used to track a person.

Body worn CCTV footage can be, and is, used for evidential purposes, it's really not difficult, booking details from an individual + video footage of a person and Identifying someone is easy, there is also open source information that can be used.

So I will take that as a no, you cannot cite a single case. Not a single one that has made the news? Not one in the 5,820 threads in this part of the forum? Just "trust me bro".

I have not seen a single case on the forum, ever, of someone giving false or no details who has been tracked down by a ticket and/or bodycam and then sent a letter.

We do not live in a panopticon. My mum could travel on a ticket her friend Mrs Smith bought, be liable for a Penalty Fare, and give false details, get away with it at the time and there is nothing you could do about it. You have no idea who my mum is or what she looks like, or Mrs Smith for that matter. The bodycam wouldn't be helpful in that sort of case. Northern recently had to release details of all their prosecutions under FOI; a very eclectic mix! As well as all the fares offences, they successfully prosecuted people for littering, transferring tickets, being unfit to be on the railway, disorderly behaviour - all sorts. They prosecuted under 25 different Bylaws. But not a single solitary case even attempted under Bylaw 23 for refusing to give details or giving false details. Not one! And we know that offence is committed all the time; barely a week goes by without someone saying they are shocked to get a letter where someone else gave their details.

There is an epidemic of people giving the details of other people they know. Here is the latest, from last week: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/letter-reporting-dependant-for-non-payment-of-fare.268071/ Essentially the passenger writes back saying "it wasn't me", and that is that, the case is closed. There is nothing else that can be done.

This is why stopping people and collecting their details, and taking steps to verify those details, is important. Else you wouldn't bother to do it, and you wouldn't have access to verification tools like the credit reference agencies and the electoral roll, and it wouldn't be an offence for a passenger to refuse to give their name and address. You'd just scan all the tickets and let the guys in the back office take over. Except that doesn't happen. If it did, the TOC revenue protection teams would be all over it with their PR. However there has been not a peep and not a single example has surfaced of this ever happening other than "trust me bro".

Where CCTV and bodycams are useful are where habitual and hardened fraudsters, whose identities and likeness are known, are being tracked with a view to catching them in a sting. Building up patterns of behaviour, showing extended patterns of fraud, and with a view to handing that stuff to the police, who can arrest the suspect and conclusively identify them prior to any court summons being issued. Or, perhaps a staff member has been assaulted or a disorderly conduct Bylaw has been breached. Bodycams are great for that. But you'd still need to actually identify the passenger.

if you can find an example of someone who gives false details, escapes, but who then retrospectively gets taken to court because the retailer divulged the purchaser's info then please do link it here.

 

[RPI]

So I will take that as a no, you cannot cite a single case. Not a single one that has made the news? Not one in the 5,820 threads in this part of the forum? Just "trust me bro".

I have not seen a single case on the forum, ever, of someone giving false or no details who has been tracked down by a ticket and/or bodycam and then sent a letter.

We do not live in a panopticon. My mum could travel on a ticket her friend Mrs Smith bought, be liable for a Penalty Fare, and give false details, get away with it at the time and there is nothing you could do about it. You have no idea who my mum is or what she looks like, or Mrs Smith for that matter. The bodycam wouldn't be helpful in that sort of case. Northern recently had to release details of all their prosecutions under FOI; a very eclectic mix! As well as all the fares offences, they successfully prosecuted people for littering, transferring tickets, being unfit to be on the railway, disorderly behaviour - all sorts. They prosecuted under 25 different Bylaws. But not a single solitary case even attempted under Bylaw 23 for refusing to give details or giving false details. Not one! And we know that offence is committed all the time; barely a week goes by without someone saying they are shocked to get a letter where someone else gave their details.

There is an epidemic of people giving the details of other people they know. Here is the latest, from last week: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/letter-reporting-dependant-for-non-payment-of-fare.268071/ Essentially the passenger writes back saying "it wasn't me", and that is that, the case is closed. There is nothing else that can be done.

This is why stopping people and collecting their details, and taking steps to verify those details, is important. Else you wouldn't bother to do it, and you wouldn't have access to verification tools like the credit reference agencies and the electoral roll, and it wouldn't be an offence for a passenger to refuse to give their name and address. You'd just scan all the tickets and let the guys in the back office take over. Except that doesn't happen. If it did, the TOC revenue protection teams would be all over it with their PR. However there has been not a peep and not a single example has surfaced of this ever happening other than "trust me bro".

Where CCTV and bodycams are useful are where habitual and hardened fraudsters, whose identities and likeness are known, are being tracked with a view to catching them in a sting. Building up patterns of behaviour, showing extended patterns of fraud, and with a view to handing that stuff to the police, who can arrest the suspect and conclusively identify them prior to any court summons being issued. Or, perhaps a staff member has been assaulted or a disorderly conduct Bylaw has been breached. Bodycams are great for that. But you'd still need to actually identify the passenger.

if you can find an example of someone who gives false details, escapes, but who then retrospectively gets taken to court because the retailer divulged the purchaser's info then please do link it here.

Believe me or don't, I'm telling you it happens, so call me a liar if you wish, that's your choice.

Basically you're saying that I must be lying because there's no cases reported by the media? I think someone apprehended by such methods would hardly be running to the press about being caught out.

I work in this particular area of the industry, that's why I know it can and does happen, it's incredibly naive of you to suggest that it doesn't happen but is dangerous of you to offer advice to people coming here for help that such things don't happen.

People that do come here for help deserve transparent advice and ultimately should seek professional legal advice if unsure.

Reading your post was almost entertaining of just how little you actually know about the (totally legal) processes that are used by TOC's to recover monies owed by to the railway by people attempting to avoid their fare.

Again, you choose to believe what you want, but just be careful about offering advice to people that could well cost them!

 

[AlterEgo]

Believe me or don't, I'm telling you it happens, so call me a liar if you wish, that's your choice.

Basically you're saying that I must be lying because there's no cases reported by the media? I think someone apprehended by such methods would hardly be running to the press about being caught out.

I think we would see people come here for advice about it, yes, because we know that giving the wrong details happens all the time. We get people here all the time for myriad irregularities: intelligence led ticket audits, abuse of Freedom passes, staff travel irregularities, no ticket, expired railcards, delay repay abuse, refund fraud, Jobcentre card misuse, you name it we've seen it in over 5000 threads on here.

I think if train companies could locate and successfully pursue people who give false details using ticket scans and cameras - one of the most prevalent forms of abuse on the railway - then we would see them talk about it, just as they boom from the rooftops with PR articles about how they audit everyone's refunds, and can check how many times you've claimed a discount wrongly, and how bodycams are protecting staff from abuse and assault.

I think we would see trigger happy Northern prosecute even just one person out of 12,000+ cases across 25 Bylaws for giving false details if it really was so easy as you say.

I think if there were cases, then, no, the perpetrators wouldn't run to the media, but the train companies would absolutely talk about how they're catching people who abscond with their new fangled Aztec code methods and bodycams.

It is up to you to show that what you assert is true. The evidence, or rather the total lack of it, suggests that this does not happen.

I work in this particular area of the industry, that's why I know it can and does happen

But you cannot supply a single example of it happening in the way described in the OP. Not a single news case or thread.

, it's incredibly naive of you to suggest that it doesn't happen but is dangerous of you to offer advice to people coming here for help that such things don't happen.

It does not happen. Show me that it does. Just one case please. I do not condone giving false details; it is illegal. However, once it is done, especially as the details are completely fictional, there is no realistic prospect of it being followed up.

People that do come here for help deserve transparent advice

Unlike you, in my signature I have my real name and professional profile. People here know who I worked for in the industry, and in what capacity. You are not giving transparent advice. You - someone who's job it is to protect revenue - are suggesting the railway has the appetite and capacity to do things which I have shown there is no evidence whatsoever of it ever having done.

If you can show evidence that the railway does these things you are welcome to post it, but I am deeply unconvinced this happens.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Below is a link from bucks free press, might be worth a read

Fare dodger lands with £6,000 fine after his ploy is revealed

A persistent fare dodger has been slapped with a hefty fine after he avoided correct train fares for almost a year.

www.bucksfreepress.co.uk

 

[Hadders]

We're starting to drift off-topic. This thread is to give @neveragain1 assistance with their case. Discussion about how train companies can join the dots to investigate how e-tickets can be linked ot individuals is interesting but this discussion should be ina separate thread.

Thanks.

 

[neveragain1]

Slight update -

There’s lots of different advice and thank you for it all.

From what I can gather there’s a high likelihood that if I don’t pay, nothing will come of it. It seems as if there’s a number of different hurdles for them to jump through just to somewhat identify me after which they wouldn’t be able to definitely prove it is me, only that potentially my card was used to purchase a train ticket.

However, it’s only £50 and for the peace of mind that this puts the issue to bed I’ll pay. asoon as I’m replied to in email from them letting me know how i can pay it.

 

[RPI]

I think we would see people come here for advice about it, yes, because we know that giving the wrong details happens all the time. We get people here all the time for myriad irregularities: intelligence led ticket audits, abuse of Freedom passes, staff travel irregularities, no ticket, expired railcards, delay repay abuse, refund fraud, Jobcentre card misuse, you name it we've seen it in over 5000 threads on here.

I think if train companies could locate and successfully pursue people who give false details using ticket scans and cameras - one of the most prevalent forms of abuse on the railway - then we would see them talk about it, just as they boom from the rooftops with PR articles about how they audit everyone's refunds, and can check how many times you've claimed a discount wrongly, and how bodycams are protecting staff from abuse and assault.

I think we would see trigger happy Northern prosecute even just one person out of 12,000+ cases across 25 Bylaws for giving false details if it really was so easy as you say.

I think if there were cases, then, no, the perpetrators wouldn't run to the media, but the train companies would absolutely talk about how they're catching people who abscond with their new fangled Aztec code methods and bodycams.

It is up to you to show that what you assert is true. The evidence, or rather the total lack of it, suggests that this does not happen.


But you cannot supply a single example of it happening in the way described in the OP. Not a single news case or thread.


It does not happen. Show me that it does. Just one case please. I do not condone giving false details; it is illegal. However, once it is done, especially as the details are completely fictional, there is no realistic prospect of it being followed up.


Unlike you, in my signature I have my real name and professional profile. People here know who I worked for in the industry, and in what capacity. You are not giving transparent advice. You - someone who's job it is to protect revenue - are suggesting the railway has the appetite and capacity to do things which I have shown there is no evidence whatsoever of it ever having done.

If you can show evidence that the railway does these things you are welcome to post it, but I am deeply unconvinced this happens.

To link to cases I've worked on, where this has happened, would be a huge breach of GDPR and would also be hugely unprofessional and leave me liable to disciplinary procedures from my employer, again, believe me or don't, I'm saying it happens, you're saying it doesn't, people can make their own choice on who they chose to believe.

We'll agree to disagree, I stand by my advice that this categorically can and does happen, not in every single case, but it does happen a lot more than people think.

As for the reason that I don't have my real name, a social media policy that is in place with my employer.

I think I've added all that can be added really, but I feel that it is relevant to the OP's post.

Basically you take a calculated risk.