Ticket Irregularity and Withdrawn Season Ticket

[muug1982]

Hi,

Need some advice.
I travelled this morning on from Rugby to Luton Airport Parkway using a Rugby - Market Harborough Anytime Return (Outward Portion) and a Market Harborough - Luton Airport Parkway Season ticket (Valid 1st Jan - 13th Feb.)
The season ticket is 50% discounted, as I work at Luton Airport. My ticket was inspected between Market Harborough and Kettering, and I was asked for the discount card, which I have left at home.

Despite my explanation and protestation, the inspector / guard sold me a Anytime Return from Market Harborough to Luton Airport Parkway (he wouldn't sell me an Anytime Day Return), withdrew my season ticket and put it in an evidence bag and completed a travel irregularity report.

The Photocard number on my Season ticket matches the discount card, rather than my National Rail Photocard. I showed him my driver's license, numerous bank cards and the NR photocard, but he wouldn't accept my innocent mistake. Should the season ticket have been issued against the NR photocard or the discount card?

I have no previous railway irregularity and have been travelling on this season ticket for 18months without the discount card being requested - it's always with me as it's on the same lanyard as my office security pass, which I've also forgotten. Once i produce the valid discount card, then I'd hope to get a refund on today's ticket and any subsequent tickets that I need to buy until I get my season ticket returned. Am I being too optimistic?

I suspect that be the letter of the rulebook the staff member was probably correct in his actions but as there's effectively around £200 of validity left on the season ticket, I'm going to pursue this as best I can. I don't know all the in's and out's so I need your advice on how I move forward from here.

 

[island]

The season ticket should be issued against the photocard but it and the discount card should be presented, and you should have been able to get an anytime day return. However, the ticket probably should not have been withdrawn, per http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/Legal/Pages/PenaltyFares.aspx, which says

What should I do if I have forgotten my Season Ticket and/or photo-card?
[...]If you have boarded the train before realising you haven’t got your Season Ticket and/or photo card, you need to approach the on train staff. If a member of our Revenue Protection Team approaches you, who is an Authorised Collector, they will record details of your Season Ticket and issue you with an Authority to Travel. You must send this Authority to Travel together with a clear photocopy of your Season Ticket and photo-card to the address detailed on the Authority to Travel. Failure to return the Authority to Travel or making a false claim can lead to prosecution. If the member of staff is not an Authorised Collector, you need to buy a ticket and apply for a refund.

I suppose the guard acted as he did on the presumption that the discount entitlement was being misused or that the ticket had been transferred (which you could not disprove in the absence of the discount card the number of which appeared on the ticket).

I was pondering whether you should have been given a penalty fare, but as you started at Rugby, which isn't a penalty fares station, you should not.

 

[muug1982]

Thanks - what do you think the prospects are of getting the season ticket returned (once I've proved I'm entitled to the discount?) How long is this likely to take? Will I be able to get any tickets purchased in the interim refunded?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Tbf to the guard, this doesn't sound like a case of "I forgot my season/photocard". It comes across as someone who has a photocard and a season and the photocard number does not match that written on the season. That looks bad. When you then add in a discount and no proof of entitlement, that looks really bad. I don't know the exact proceedures there, but I think withdrawl of the ticket could easily be part of it.

 

[muug1982]

Yes - I'm not denying that I didn't have the right discount card on me (which was sitting on the table when I got home) or criticising the guard for the action he took (it's up to him I guess whether he applies any discretion.) I'm just hoping that the error is going to only cost me the hassle of the time spent chasing the admin trail, rather than the £200 for the remaining validity of the ticket. That seems a bit harsh considering that if I didn't have any ticket the PF would have only been £20.

 

[RPI]

Selling an Anytime return was correct, NRCoC state that the "full fare" is the most expensive ticket for the the journey being made.

 

[34D]

Yes - I'm not denying that I didn't have the right discount card on me (which was sitting on the table when I got home) or criticising the guard for the action he took (it's up to him I guess whether he applies any discretion.) I'm just hoping that the error is going to only cost me the hassle of the time spent chasing the admin trail, rather than the £200 for the remaining validity of the ticket. That seems a bit harsh considering that if I didn't have any ticket the PF would have only been £20.

If the worst comes to the worst, did you buy the ticket with a credit card?

 

[yorkie]

Selling an Anytime return was correct, NRCoC state that the "full fare" is the most expensive ticket for the the journey being made.

But that is not correct if the customer is returning the same day, in which case an Anytime Day Return should be sold if available.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But that is not correct if the customer is returning the same day, in which case an Anytime Day Return should be sold if available.

The Anytime Return is the most expensive return ticket valid for the journey being made. As much as I'd like to think the day return ticket should be sold, it is not the most expensive return fare for the journey being made.

Muug, get in contact with EMT, only they can really say what is happening. It's likely that if they think something fishy is going on they will be in contact at some point, but by then your weekly will likely be expired.

 

[yorkie]

Surely by "most expensive" they mean within the validity required, otherwise they could force you to buy a return instead of a single, or even an All Line Rover.

An All Line Rover is valid for 1 journey, so if we are taking a literal definition of the most expensive fare possible then that is the "correct" fare.

I say that the literal definition of the most expensive fare possible is clearly not what is supposed to be charged, because that would be rather ridiculous.

An Anytime Day fare is still an Anytime or "full" fare.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you actually read the NRCoC it says...

....
If you travel in a train:

(a) without a ticket; or

(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22,
30, 35 and 39 apply;

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty
Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey....

....For the purposes of this Condition, and Conditions 4, 39 and 41, “full single fare or full
return fare” means the highest priced single or (if requested by the passenger) return fare
appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making.

....

So only singles and returns can be charged. I'd have thought you would have known that.:roll:

 

[yorkie]

So only singles and returns can be charged. I'd have thought you would have known that.:roll:

National Rail Enquiries is happy to suggest a Rover as an Off Peak "Return" ticket. See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=881440&highlight=Rover+Manchester+Return#post881440

And do you really think that an East Coast guard would refuse to sell a York to Doncaster Anytime Day Return ticket and instead insist an Off Peak Return ticket was sold, when the customer was travelling back a different day and buying on board?

EMT are in the wrong here, clearly.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm sorry but NRES doesn't say a rover is a return, that is a false assumption based on the fact that when asked for a return fare it is suggested in the returns section (the other option would have been the singles section!). Under 'tickets' it does infact say it is a rover. Perhaps you prefer that they don't appear at all?

Without knowing EMTs proceedures it is difficult to say if the guard or EMT is in the wrong. However, it is fair to say the Op was in the wrong for not having the discount card and the issuer of the ticket was wrong for not using the BR photocard number on the season.

I'm not suggesting another guard from another TOC would do the same thing, I am not saying they would do something different, that is not in question here, however, in your example the Off-Peak return is the most expensive return fare for the journey being made.

 

[lyesbkz]

I must say I can understand the logic behind refusing to sell Day Returns on-board where the passenger has decided not to purchase a ticket before boarding (walking past open ticket office, TVM, ..)

Whilst this seems less fair in the special case of the OP who clearly had no intention of evading any fare whatsoever, in general the concept of selling ticketless passengers only the "full single or return fare" on the train is aimed at those fare evaders, to make it worth their while to buy before boarding, and selling Day Returns on board would be contrary to the purpose of this concept.

 

[radamfi]

If the worst comes to the worst, did you buy the ticket with a credit card?

I presume you are suggesting filing a claim with the credit card company for a refund of the season ticket because of credit card company jointly liability on purchases over £100. That's an interesting suggestion that I haven't seen discussed before. Is that a tactic worth pursuing in general when you have been unfairly excessed on the train by over £100 and subsequent arguing with the TOC has not resulted in a refund?

 

[ian13]

I presume you are suggesting filing a claim with the credit card company for a refund of the season ticket because of credit card company jointly liability on purchases over £100. That's an interesting suggestion that I haven't seen discussed before. Is that a tactic worth pursuing in general when you have been unfairly excessed on the train by over £100 and subsequent arguing with the TOC has not resulted in a refund?

Given that he is now unable to travel, despite being able to produce the required photocard and discount entitlement, I'd say he'd have a good case. Such a claim would likely only cost the direct loss of the season ticket's value though, and not consequential damages.

 

[34D]

Given that he is now unable to travel, despite being able to produce the required photocard and discount entitlement, I'd say he'd have a good case. Such a claim would likely only cost the direct loss of the season ticket's value though, and not consequential damages.

I wonder what would happen if he went back to the issuing station to request a reprint of a lost season ticket?

If these special airport tickets can only be done at Luton Airport Parkway (which is FCC) this may well be successful....

 

[Old Timer]

I presume you are suggesting filing a claim with the credit card company for a refund of the season ticket because of credit card company jointly liability on purchases over £100. That's an interesting suggestion that I haven't seen discussed before. Is that a tactic worth pursuing in general when you have been unfairly excessed on the train by over £100 and subsequent arguing with the TOC has not resulted in a refund?

He was not "unfairly excessed". He was excessed in accordance with NRCOC Clauses 35 and 2.

National Rail Enquiries is happy to suggest a Rover as an Off Peak "Return" ticket. See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=881440&highlight=Rover+Manchester+Return#post881440

And do you really think that an East Coast guard would refuse to sell a York to Doncaster Anytime Day Return ticket and instead insist an Off Peak Return ticket was sold, when the customer was travelling back a different day and buying on board?

EMT are in the wrong here, clearly.

The issue relates to the "incorrect use of the Season Ticket under NRCOC Clause 35. This mandates that the passenger is treated under Clause 2, Hairyhandedfool is quite correct.

Given that he is now unable to travel, despite being able to produce the required photocard and discount entitlement, I'd say he'd have a good case. Such a claim would likely only cost the direct loss of the season ticket's value though, and not consequential damages.

The ticket has not been handed in for refund and in any case Credit Cards would not be involved unless there had been a misapplication of Consumer Law or the Company had gone bust. Neither applies in this case.

The ticket was withdrawn because the passenger (with due respect) was in breach of the terms of issue and use of the ticket. Any loss therefore must remain with the passenger not the TOC.

I wonder what would happen if he went back to the issuing station to request a reprint of a lost season ticket?....

The matter would be reported to the BT Police and the passenger reported for Prosecution under one or more clauses of the relevant sections of Law (Theft/Fraud, etc, etc.)

 

[34D]

The matter would be reported to the BT Police and the passenger reported for Prosecution under one or more clauses of the relevant sections of Law (Theft/Fraud, etc, etc.)

I don't see how its fraud at all. Please appreciate that we are talking here of a passenger who has paid a substantial amount of money for a ticket here - not a fare dodger.

Theft.... That could well be what I would accuse the EMT guard of.

 

[OwlMan]

Theft.... That could well be what I would accuse the EMT guard of.

So what you want a guard/RPI do if they come across a season ticket with a completely different number to the photocard?. It seems to me that withdrawing the season ticket for investigation is the best idea.
Has the OP got in touch with EMT to try & sort out the problem as surely that is the first thing to do.

Peter

 

[AlterEgo]

Theft.... That could well be what I would accuse the EMT guard of.

Don't be ridiculous. A ticket remains the Railway's property. I would have thought you would have known that.

 

[34D]

Don't be ridiculous. A ticket remains the Railway's property. I would have thought you would have known that.

I do know this. But from the info given so far, I don't agree that withdrawing the ticket was appropriate

 

[OwlMan]

I do know this. But from the info given so far, I don't agree that withdrawing the ticket was appropriate

Why not?

All he had to support it was a photocard with a different number - surely a case for withdrawl & investigation.

 

[radamfi]

He was not "unfairly excessed". He was excessed in accordance with NRCOC Clauses 35 and 2.

I'm not talking about this case in particular, I was talking in general. There have been many cases written about on here where the passenger has paid up when he should have really had an UPFN and appealed as it is a lot harder to get a refund than to get the UPFN quashed. I was curious whether such a passenger could get a refund of his credit card if arguing with the TOC proved fruitless. In the event of a refund from the credit card company, I was wondering whether the TOC would subsequently try to get the money back from the passenger. Or worse, the TOC prosecuting the passenger for fraud.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

.

Theft.... That could well be what I would accuse the EMT guard of.

Really? Could you please post your legal analysis describing how you came to that extraordinary conclusion?



Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[lyesbkz]

I don't see how its fraud at all. Please appreciate that we are talking here of a passenger who has paid a substantial amount of money for a ticket here - not a fare dodger.

It's fraud when he says "my ticket was lost" or "my ticket was stolen". Because the ticket was withdrawn. If he went and said "my ticket was withdrawn, can you reprint it?" then no offence would be being committed however obviously they would say no.

 

[Old Timer]

I don't see how its fraud at all. Please appreciate that we are talking here of a passenger who has paid a substantial amount of money for a ticket here - not a fare dodger.

Theft.... That could well be what I would accuse the EMT guard of.

The ticket was withdrawn for investigation by the Guard, thuis the ticket is not "lost" by any moral or legal definition of the word. Were the passenger to take your advice and claim it as being lost then they would be committing a variety of offences were they to make a claim on this basis.

The amount that the passenger has paid is completely irrelevant to the matter.

There can be no theft because Railway tickets, in common with other transport providers remain the property of the Company. The ticket is given to the passenger by the Company for the purposes of demonstrating that they have paid for a ticket, and the value of that ticket, so as to enable the passenger to travel.

Until the early 1980s used tickets were still collected from passengers and returned to Derby where they were spot checked, and any irregularities were identified. These included forged tickets, tickets irregularly issued at less than full value, altered tickets, etc.

I do know this. But from the info given so far, I don't agree that withdrawing the ticket was appropriate

The passenger did not supply the necessary photo ID cards, and thus was in contravention of NRCOC clause 35, end of.

Now it could be argued that the Guard could, and maybe should, have exercised some discretion when the passenger could otherwise prove that their identity matched with the name on the ticket, in which case the Guard could have left the ticket with the passenger and charged them the relevant fare.

That is what I would have done in my BR days provided that there would have been no other matters giving rise for concern. I think most BR TTIs would have done similar as not having the season ticket AND having to pay each day would be a little excessive and more of a punishment.

I like to think that in BR days there was more shall we say "discretionary justice" around, as we were not interested in penalising people for genuine mistakes. However much hinges on what the TOC's policies are, in which case the Guard would have been complying with them in which case nobody should criticise the Guard for following his duties in accordance with instructions.

 

[34D]

Why not?

All he had to support it was a photocard with a different number - surely a case for withdrawl & investigation.

But surely that is expained by the additional card needed for the airport staff discount? Or am I missing something?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If I dropped my discounted season ticket (not the photocard) and someone else (with a photocard of their own) picked it up and attempted to use it, should they be treated any differently?

How can you tell that person apart from the Op?

 

[jon0844]

Given a season ticket can't be killed (besides a smartcard one), I can see why it may be withdrawn. Of course, there's no reason that you can't get it back once you can produce all the relevant IDs.