Ticket Machines On Trains

[RichmondCommu]

G'day all,

I've often wondered whether this would be useful, especially for services outside the South East. Ticket machines are appearing at unstaffed stations but they are notoriously unreliable. Even if the ticket machines sold tickets for a limited number of destinations surely it would make things a lot easier for on train staff?

Your responses would be appreciated!

Richmond Commuter!

 

[Wath Yard]

I'd rather trains had seats thanks. With disabled toilets, wheelchair spaces, bike racks, etc there is enough of the internal space taken up as it is. BTW, I don't particularly care if life is easy for the staff. I'm the one paying for my journey; they're the ones getting paid.

 

[Simon11]

Really interesting idea however I can see one flaw.

Imagine a revenue protection manager walking into the carriage and everyone darting towards the tvm would everyone begin fighting (imagine they're on a fcc train) to get a ticket before getting a penalty fare! Would certainlly mean changing ticket polices for a few tocs.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Really interesting idea however I can see one flaw.

Imagine a revenue protection manager walking into the carriage and everyone darting towards the tvm would everyone begin fighting (imagine they're on a fcc train) to get a ticket before getting a penalty fare! Would certainlly mean changing ticket polices for a few tocs.

Yep, exactly. The Dft or whoever deals with fare dodging would be happy there would be no income from fines and prosecutions, and they want to catch us out on the other hand it could possibly make sure that everybody pays and doesn't dodge. You could maybe have just a small one just for destinations on the particular line the train is working and it be loaded with a module like bus ticket machines have, programmed to print tickets for locations on the line. For example, if you had one on a train working from Chester to Manchester via Warrington, you could just program it to print tickets for Helsby,Frodsham,Earlestown,Warrington,Earlestown, Newton-le-Willows and Manchester stations. A lot simpler?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Really interesting idea however I can see one flaw.

Imagine a revenue protection manager walking into the carriage and everyone darting towards the tvm would everyone begin fighting (imagine they're on a fcc train) to get a ticket before getting a penalty fare! Would certainlly mean changing ticket polices for a few tocs.

Well thats a good point but it wouldn't take long for people to cotton on! And in all fairness the machines would be more useful on services which didn't have platform barriers.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

ok lets install a machine on the train. another excuse to render the train crew obsolete!!! its an idea, but realistically wouldnt be workable. how would the machines be maintained or restocked? what if that broke down? risk of vandalism or theft on board, and how could you ensure correct usage? the ticketing system is over complicated as it is that staff have difficulty understanding it let alone the travelling public, as evident by the ticket machines that are used now. and effective revenue protection would still need to be carried out so the staff would still be needed. the end of the day the honest fare paying passenger will still be ripped off, the chancer will still hope no one comes before the station stop but pay if challenged anyway and the scrote will still barricade himself in the bogs. paying for more machines yet no increase in net takings and therefore no benefit!

on another note virgin proposed vending machines on the train with restocking by the train manager.

 

[asylumxl]

To everyone criticising the idea, they work fine in European countries .

 

[ainsworth74]

how would the machines be maintained or restocked? what if that broke down? risk of vandalism or theft on board, and how could you ensure correct usage?

These would appear to be problems that already apply to TVMs as found on stations so I'm not sure why they're a barrier to TVMs on trains? However as I have a bit of time:

Maintenance would presumably be carried out overnight at depots, restocking could similarly be carried out at this time. If it broke down then as now you'd either buy from a guard or booking office and fix it overnight. Vandalism/theft are facts of life that TVMs on stations have to deal with and indeed are probably more vulnerable to it there than a TVM on a train. Finally, how do you ensure correct usage now!? You can't really so I'm not sure why this is a mark against on train TVMs.

and effective revenue protection would still need to be carried out so the staff would still be needed

Who suggested that they wouldn't? The idea is to make things easier for passengers and on train staff, not to reduce revenue protection.

Also as noted it works in Europe so I don't see why it should be dismissed out of hand for us?

 

[RichmondCommu]

ok lets install a machine on the train. another excuse to render the train crew obsolete!!! its an idea, but realistically wouldnt be workable. how would the machines be maintained or restocked? what if that broke down? risk of vandalism or theft on board, and how could you ensure correct usage? the ticketing system is over complicated as it is that staff have difficulty understanding it let alone the travelling public, as evident by the ticket machines that are used now. and effective revenue protection would still need to be carried out so the staff would still be needed. the end of the day the honest fare paying passenger will still be ripped off, the chancer will still hope no one comes before the station stop but pay if challenged anyway and the scrote will still barricade himself in the bogs. paying for more machines yet no increase in net takings and therefore no benefit!

on another note virgin proposed vending machines on the train with restocking by the train manager.

What? Hang on a minute! The whole idea is to make life easier for the guard, not to do them out of a job. And why will it make the ticketing system any more difficult to understand? And why will any customers be ripped off? Coupled with say new trains the cost of ticket machines will amount to nothing.

 

[455driver]

To everyone criticising the idea, they work fine in European countries .

Yeah but most Europeans behave better than your average British person!

 

[sheff1]

To everyone criticising the idea, they work fine in European countries .

The 'wouldn't work here' crowd will be along shortly

Edit: they were faster than I expected !

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yeah but most Europeans behave better than your average British person!

Fair play but people are less likely to vandalise something in view of others and giving passengers a financial advantage to use the machines would encourage use.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

in principle I'm not totally dismissing the idea. but bet that first line would be straight out of crow's mouth if he got wind of this!

There are some logical reasons behind the idea, I agree. But from my experience of seeing travelling passengers confusion with what ticket machines we have now, i dont think there would be any real gain from the machine on board aswell. that is why i think the honest paying passenger would be ripped off. they are already! There is too much confusion in the current ticketing system. take for example when off peak is valid and when it isn't. and a lack of understanding what toc specific anytime tickets mean (such as grand centrals or CrossCountry only fares(xc only have since been withdrawn but plenty of others exist))

As long as it was some sort of intelligent system that knew where it was and what tickets were valid and offered only these tickets then there may be of some benefit, but as most things in this country we seem to very quickly find ways to abuse the system. For example, waiting until the next stop to buy the ticket when a much cheaper ticket may be available. Or simply waiting until someone says tickets please and making a dash for the machine then. No system is unfallable, granted. Unless we adopt a New York metro approach and barricade every station with football style turnstiles, or pre book every seat on every train, but that is one path I am sure none of us want to go down!

Realistically an idea such as this could work on a tram train type operation, where perhaps the fare is the same regardless of how far you travel, or once a significant overhaul takes place of the entire ticketing system that simplifies it, and I don't mean the half baked name change we saw a few years ago that became an excuse to put fares up!

 

[DiscoStu]

Yeah but most Europeans behave better than your average British person!

Do they?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

To everyone criticising the idea, they work fine in European countries .

There are a limited number in certain urban areas. They tend to be more for services on short journies. They may exist but whether they work well is subjective. There are plenty of people about without work why don't we have less machines and more of a human presence?

 

[RichmondCommu]

As long as it was some sort of intelligent system that knew where it was and what tickets were valid and offered only these tickets then there may be of some benefit, but as most things in this country we seem to very quickly find ways to abuse the system. For example, waiting until the next stop to buy the ticket when a much cheaper ticket may be available. Or simply waiting until someone says tickets please and making a dash for the machine then. No system is unfallable, granted. Unless we adopt a New York metro approach and barricade every station with football style turnstiles, or pre book every seat on every train, but that is one path I am sure none of us want to go down!

The whole point of my idea is to make it easier for the guard to walk up and down the train checking tickets. If people try and abuse the system then guards will catch them out very quickly. And who's to say that a rewards system can't be introduced for those who buy tickets on the train? Financial reward is always the best incentive. And we don't have to trial it on the busiest routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are plenty of people about without work why don't we have less machines and more of a human presence?

Well there is a simple answer to that; machines are cheaper. Now while I'm not happy about decent people being unemployed the railways need to become more efficient.

 

[sheff1]

There are a limited number in certain urban areas. They tend to be more for services on short journies.

Plenty of non-urban trains travelling lengthy distances have ticket machines on board in both Germany & Sweden to name but two.

In fact such journies are probably more suited to them *. In heavily trafficed urban areas, machines at stations are a better option in my view.

* Take the Hope Valley line for example - lots of small unstaffed, but reasonably well used, stations in close proximity. If the guard does try and collect fares after each stop then, more often than not at busy times of day, they will not reach everyone before they have to open the doors etc at the next stop. I often seen passengers boarding at say, Hathersage, money in hand travelling to Hope for the hill walking. They want to pay but the guard does not reach them before it is time to leave the train. And, no, there is no point in them approaching the guard as he/she is already selling tickets to other Hathersage, or even Grindleford, boarders.

 

[leshuttle]

Welcome to 2013 where the future strategy of ticketing for rail travel should and hopefully will move towards e-ticketing across all modes of public transport . Hence why are we discussing the need for such equipment onboard trains when all one really should need is a handheld device with internet connectivity. I suppose it might be feasible to install e-ticket machines in the vestibules so that tickets could be purchased that way with smart cards/bank cards/phones etc. Understandably we're not quite there yet but it would seem rather a backward step to be investing in further ways to sell and buy paper tickets.

 

[tsr]

I do think that the long-term way-forward, in my opinion, is to have a location- & chronologically-aware smartcard validation system onboard trains. I am not sure about how season ticketing options would be run from a purchase perspective (presumably these purchases could be at machines onboard, but it may make more sense for such transactions to be carried out online or at stations), plus I'm not sure how the national network could effectively deal with smartcard-based PAYG topups and auto-topups. Also, I'm not entirely sure what the most efficient ways to deal with rangers/rovers/travelcards would be (maybe different daily/weekly/fortnightly etc. price caps for each range of stations travelled to/from?).

Ticket inspectors would still be needed to ensure smartcards were validated (as on LU). Booking offices would still be able to exist - issuing and replacing smartcards, offering geographical travel advice, perhaps selling certain types of smartcard tickets (seasons?), giving zone/route guidance...

 

[RichmondCommu]

Welcome to 2013 where the future strategy of ticketing for rail travel should and hopefully will move towards e-ticketing across all modes of public transport . Hence why are we discussing the need for such equipment onboard trains when all one really should need is a handheld device with internet connectivity. I suppose it might be feasible to install e-ticket machines in the vestibules so that tickets could be purchased that way with smart cards/bank cards/phones etc. Understandably we're not quite there yet but it would seem rather a backward step to be investing in further ways to sell and buy paper tickets.

Ok but even with a hand held device it still takes time when the guard could be moving on down the train. Not only that but the internet connection in some rural areas is not exactly fantastic.

 

[WestCoast]

Having ticket machines on public transport vehicles (trains, trams, buses e.t.c) is a very well established method of buying tickets in a variety of European countries. Of course, the only time it's been tried here recently, to my knowledge, was the disastrous First FTR in York. They picked a rubbish machine (which gave no change nor accepted cards) and expected most passengers to use it without serious regard for off-bus ticketing solutions.

In my experience, onboard TVMs on the continent tend to fall into two categories;

1) Urban transport, especially onboard trams where stops don't have TVMs. Off-tram/bus ticketing is strongly encouraged with appropriate discounts but if a user needs to buy a single/day ticket they can onboard without taking up the drivers time. *Amsterdam has a different take on this, where seated conductors were reintroduced early last decade - probably due to the higher volume of onboard ticket sales by irregular users such as tourists*

2) Lower volume rail services, where some or a majority of the stops don't have ticket purchasing facilities. The TVM usually assists the guard, as passengers are expected to purchase tickets from the machine. In some cases, the train is DOO with a TVM, but this is not consistent practice. These lines don't tend to get really crowded, so getting to the machine is not usually a problem (exceptions for people with disabilities or so). *Basically, lines which rely heavily on the guard to sell tickets in the UK, might be suitable for this type of solution. I am looking at you, Northern, FGW Local and ATW*

Those on the forum that are advocating a nationwide smartcard scheme, of course in an ideal world it's a modern solution to ticketing. The Netherlands has rolled out the Oyster-style 'Chipkaart' across most modes of transport on a national scale. However, due to the disjointed set-up we have here, I doubt that will become reality here before, err, 2050 or so! The Swift Card we have for buses in the West Midlands isn't even accepted by the major operator of bus services in the region!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

London's Oyster card is well on the way to what we need in that retrospect. But until the network sees joined up thinking across all modes like tfl does then as you say it's going to take a while. Too much of this "my patch my train" thinking in the industry which confuses the travelling public and the front line staff really couldn't give a flying "f" about! And as for the bus industry, how can we promote through routing and ticketing when operators are monopolising routes in some areas and competing cut throat on others. Manchester's 192 route and the Darlington transport debacle being two cases in point.

 

[dvboy]

The Swift Card we have for buses in the West Midlands isn't even accepted by the major operator of bus services in the region!

To be fair, it has only just come out, and Centro have told me they are working on it, it's a case of when rather than if.

 

[PR1Berske]

This could be another example where the speed and processes in Britain come up against the speed and processes of modern life........and we all know how that turns out sometimes!

Having machines on-board, or some kind of electronic/e-ticket device, is prone to the usual debates we have about modernisation - internet connections in rural areas (as mentioned), whether it means losing staff (and even if it doesn't, Unions will need to be satisfied that there isn't a threat to contracts etc).

 

[Roverman]

Whilst a ticket machine would need internet connections etc why not a Permit to Travel machine? Insert say £1 cash and it allows train travel until such time you can find a ticket seller?

 

[radamfi]

Those on the forum that are advocating a nationwide smartcard scheme, of course in an ideal world it's a modern solution to ticketing. The Netherlands has rolled out the Oyster-style 'Chipkaart' across most modes of transport on a national scale. However, due to the disjointed set-up we have here, I doubt that will become reality here before, err, 2050 or so! The Swift Card we have for buses in the West Midlands isn't even accepted by the major operator of bus services in the region!

The thing is, the introduction of the OV-Chipkaart has been accompanied by a reduction of integration of transport in the Netherlands and there was a resistance to the introduction of the card in certain parts of the country. However, the government forced these operators to accept the card. Anything is possible if you are prepared to legislate.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Whilst a ticket machine would need internet connections etc why not a Permit to Travel machine? Insert say £1 cash and it allows train travel until such time you can find a ticket seller?

But that's not going to do anything to help the guard as they will still need to sell you a ticket.

 

[reb0118]

Yeah but most Europeans behave better than your average British person!

Do they?

As a regular traveller to Europe I would say there is not much difference in levels of behaviour. What I have noticed, though, is that Europeans seem to take a telling when caught.

The grass is always greener.............

 

[Roverman]

What I have noticed, though, is that Europeans seem to take a telling when caught.

I love that phrase!

Whilst a Permit to Travel machine wouldn't help a guard inb ticket selling duties it would eliminate any excuse that people couldn't buy something either at the platform or on the train. As it doesn't replace a guard the unions would be less likely to get upset over it.

As its cash only it wouldn't need fancy technology and with just a few pounds in I imagine it wouldn't get vandalised!

 

[jon0844]

If we're going to move to smartcard ticketing one day, I think trains should simply have validators and everyone boarding a train will touch in - which can then enable accurate pricing for when you touch out, as it will know what train you took.

This can then mean you still have different pricing by TOC, time, service (intercity vs metro/suburban) or even fast trains over slow trains - just about anything.

Failing to validate your smartcard will, naturally, land you in deep water.

It would be possible to continue with paper tickets for a while, with many on-train validators in Eirope also managing to time stamp paper tickets.

Sure, it would be a big change for people to get used to, but it surely makes sense and would be essential for any shake up in ticketing that will have to eventually happen.

I see no reason why it should affect jobs. You'll need to police the trains as now to check people are validating their tickets.

Smartcards won't just work on a PAYG basis either, with tickets loaded on to them for payment in advance - and a validator on the train could even warn you if you're on the wrong train (advance tickets) etc.

Obviously smartcards need to be widely available too - but why not just have them available at newsagents, petrol stations, vending machines etc (like in London) and you can even have people activate them and add credit/tickets via their smartphone* for added convenience. Okay, so that might affect jobs at ticket offices but I think their days are numbered by TVMs as it is. I can see these jobs changing more to a customer service/information role.

One thing though; it's for ATOC to work this out - not the various systems being introduced by TOCs that seem to be totally disjointed.

* It's fair to say that in the next 5, 10 or 15 years just about everyone will have a smartphone or some device that can do this.