Ticket office closures

[DynamicSpirit]

Absolutely it is more an older generation thing but I also think it is about accessibility and the ability to have a "one stop shop" for travel queries, questions and ticketing with a real person.

I'm not sure it's just an older generation thing. I'm usually happy to buy from a ticket machine if I can, but for the vast majority of rail journeys I've made over the past year, the ticket machines are unable to sell me the ticket I want whereas a ticket office will readily sell it to me - and that's my prime reason for preferring ticket offices. Plus telling a human being what I want to buy is usually quicker than navigating ticket machine menus. As for online - in some cases, it's also not possible to buy the ticket I want online, but to be honest I find going through online journey planners a huge time-wasting faff compared to just rolling up at a ticket office and telling them what ticket I want. I typically only buy online if I want an advance ticket, or if I want a cycle reservation on a long distance train for which cycle reservations are compulsory and it's therefore prudent to book in advance.

If online websites provided a speedy option to just specify your origin and destination stations and select the ticket type and railcard (from the full range of tickets, including specific-operator tickets) without having to use a journey planner first, then maybe I'd buy online more often.

 

[Sm5]

I dont know when was the last time I used a ticket office by default…*

i always buy from a machine, unless something goes wrong.
I refuse to buy digital.


* Actually I do, it was about 3 years back, to buy parking. The guy responded his machine wasnt working and as its a sunday it wont matter. I got back to a parking ticket.
I since learned I can buy parking from a machine, but equally park around the corner for free.

so no sympathy from me.

i’m not sure what the saving is by putting the person infront of the window instead of behind ? He’ll still use the office presumably for a break. In many cases it just adds another person to the gate ?

 

[Bevan Price]

Ticket offices at a few of the larger stations are all that is needed, anything else, do on line at TVMs or from a guard.

Try to buy from a guard in some areas and you are liable to be "robbed" by a penalty fare, even if it is not your fault that you were unable to buy a ticket at your starting point. One stupid TVM insisted that I input departure times of outward & return trains even though I was purchasing an off-peak anytime (non-advance) ticket.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I wander how much they will lose in lost Priv sales..... I for one am not about to go through the rigmarole of attempting to purchase a Priv ticket online when at present I can buy one in seconds at the ticket office. Ill just "have a word with the guard" . I agree there are candidates for closure, but most ticket offices ARE needed and will be another nail in the coffin of this appalling government. Indeed it hurts there core vote. Older people. But with this lot , they are so deluded and out of touch they probably have overlooked the fact.

Be careful what you wish for, at least we have an online option. Some companies such as DB have gone through the similar process of shutting many ticket offices but won’t sell PRIV tickets on board meaning the only options are buy at a ‘hub’ station possibly in advance or pay full public fare!

Try to buy from a guard in some areas and you are liable to be "robbed" by a penalty fare, even if it is not your fault that you were unable to buy a ticket at your starting point. One stupid TVM insisted that I input departure times of outward & return trains even though I was purchasing an off-peak anytime (non-advance) ticket.

Many operators such as DB or Tren Italia and SBB follow the same principles as this without huge uproar…

 

[DynamicSpirit]

One stupid TVM insisted that I input departure times of outward & return trains even though I was purchasing an off-peak anytime (non-advance) ticket.

I suspect the problem is that they are designed for people who know nothing about the railways and therefore risk purchasing the wrong ticket if they haven't told the machine which specific trains they are travelling on. That's fine as it goes, but you also need to make an allowance for people who know perfectly well what times the off-peak ticket is valid on for their local route thank you very much and so just need a quick option to specify that ticket.

 

[Msq71423]

So basically this is the RDG/DfT now starting to impose the cuts we have been striking over for the last year. Presumably they will then start imposing the other changes (without wanting to stray into the realms of speculation). Perhaps we should just accept the payrise offers now things are getting imposed.

 

[Sm5]

Platform staff are cheaper, as there’s less training involved. Booking office is a relatively skilled role, so attracts a higher salary.

A sweeter spot would be what LU used to have at quieter stations, namely a multi-functional supervisor of the station who would spend their time watching CCTV and manning the window, whilst doing other tasks as required.

Wouldnt that just be a glorified security guard ?

TFL have a lot of staff at overground stations who I am really unsure what they do, helpful they certainly are not. Many come across as not even knowing why they are there, beyond getting paid and being told to be there.
Theres a skill gap between underground and overground for sure, and definitely on some of the outer suburban “lower use” stations. Indeed some stations I think it would be more helpful if they werent there…Buggleskelly comes to mind.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So basically this is the RDG/DfT now starting to impose the cuts we have been striking over for the last year. Presumably they will then start imposing the other changes (without wanting to stray into the realms of speculation). Perhaps we should just accept the payrise offers now things are getting imposed.

They have always been quite clear about this since the breakdown of talks they would move onto the implementation phase!

 

[bramling]

My worry is that we will go from knowledgable booking office staff to yet more On-Trak types who stare into their mobiles and can’t do anymore than grunt at you. Sadly the TfL gateline staff seem to have moved in this direction over the past few years, so I hope this theme isn’t continued on the mainline.

Unfortunately I think this is *exactly* what we’ll see.

 

[Geeves]

There's been zero recruitment on the clerical grades at Northern for almost a year so the closure of some station ticket offices will not really be noticed as they have already been mostly closed anyway, perhaps that was always the plan

I personally am sad to see the job going as its a rewarding one for sure. Apparently there's going to be more remote control of ticket machines via video links and what not but we will see

 

[CapabilityB]

I wander how much they will lose in lost Priv sales..... I for one am not about to go through the rigmarole of attempting to purchase a Priv ticket online when at present I can buy one in seconds at the ticket office. Ill just "have a word with the guard" . I agree there are candidates for closure, but most ticket offices ARE needed and will be another nail in the coffin of this appalling government. Indeed it hurts there core vote. Older people. But with this lot , they are so deluded and out of touch they probably have overlooked the fact.

I'm not sure losing sales they make a loss on is a concern (rationally so from a financial point of view). Think you're just making the case for getting rid of Priv.

 

[bramling]

Wouldnt that just be a glorified security guard ?

TFL have a lot of staff at overground stations who I am really unsure what they do, helpful they certainly are not. Many come across as not even knowing why they are there, beyond getting paid and being told to be there.
Theres a skill gap between underground and overground for sure, and definitely on some of the outer suburban “lower use” stations.

Not really, as the whole point would be the member of staff would be trained to a decent standard of railway expertise. The training required in itself for the booking office makes it much harder for “security”-type staff to creep in.

Completely agree about Overground - a lot of staff who add little if any value.

 

[sheff1]

I'm not sure it's just an older generation thing. I'm usually happy to buy from a ticket machine if I can, but for the vast majority of rail journeys I've made over the past year, the ticket machines are unable to sell me the ticket I want whereas a ticket office will readily sell it to me - and that's my prime reason for preferring ticket offices.

My experience is the opposite. The ticket office refuses to sell various tickets which can be bought from the TVM opposite and/or online (which can be collected from the same TVM if required). Some 'out of area' tickets I can even get from my local corner shop where the minimum wage staff are far more accommodating than the higher paid booking office staff.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I'm not sure losing sales they make a loss on is a concern (rationally so from a financial point of view). Think you're just making the case for getting rid of Priv.

Indeed, many Western European counties are forcing staff down the buying through an online portal or full fare. We now have an online portal…

 

[Sm5]

So basically this is the RDG/DfT now starting to impose the cuts we have been striking over for the last year. Presumably they will then start imposing the other changes (without wanting to stray into the realms of speculation). Perhaps we should just accept the payrise offers now things are getting imposed.

I would say inevitably there is an existential risk to unions, that if they remain inflexible, management will just work around them and marginalise them.
Indeed long term striking in itself, will lead to ways being sought to reduce dependencies on them.

Can unions keep it up until a change of government circa Jan 2025 ?

 

[43066]

I'm not sure losing sales they make a loss on is a concern (rationally so from a financial point of view). Think you're just making the case for getting rid of Priv.

They don’t “make a loss” on priv tickets, because the marginal cost of accommodating one extra person a train is negligible, and there aren’t anywhere near enough staff travelling around the network to cause a reduction in capacity.

The only person I’ve heard talking about getting rid of priv is you. Advance tickets and return tickets on the other hand …

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I would say inevitably there is an existential risk to unions, that if they remain inflexible, management will just work around them and marginalise them.
Indeed long term striking in itself, will lead to ways being sought to reduce dependencies on them.

Can unions keep it up until a change of government circa Jan 2025 ?

And what difference is a change of government in Jan 2025 likely to make? Assume you mean Labour then Kier Starmer has already made it clear there is going to be no magic money tree.

That aside as shown in London, Labour are no more supportive of ticket offices than the Conservatives, under Mr Kahn all the tube offices have gone and he proposed to shut the overground ones too!

 

[Thirteen]

The ticket office is one of those battles that isn't going to won by the unions as we saw with London Underground where TfL closed most if not all of them.

 

[Sm5]

And what difference is a change of government in Jan 2025 likely to make? Assume you mean Labour then Kier Starmer has already made it clear there is going to be no magic money tree.

That aside as shown in London, Labour are no more supportive of ticket offices than the Conservatives, under Mr Kahn all the tube offices have gone and he proposed to shut the overground ones too!

Some upside then.

i’m no fan of overground at all.

 

[Boski]

So basically this is the RDG/DfT now starting to impose the cuts we have been striking over for the last year. Presumably they will then start imposing the other changes (without wanting to stray into the realms of speculation). Perhaps we should just accept the payrise offers now things are getting imposed.

Havent the closing of ticket offices been taken out of the last few proposals as the matter was to be dealt with separately as it is now?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Havent the closing of ticket offices been taken out of the last few proposals as the matter was to be dealt with separately as it is now?

That option was rejected by the RMT wasn’t it?

 

[WAB]

Unfortunately, some booking office staff have done themselves out of a job. Some (even supervisors) don’t seem to have an understanding of basic ticketing principles, and very basic enquiries go unanswered or incorrectly answered. And although I have occasionally been given advice for using a longer distance tickets and breaking my journey, it was my understanding that they’re not technically supposed to do this.

My preferred replacement for booking offices is an ‘expert mode’ website which sells ticket types rather than by itinerary, including rovers.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Will smaller stations retain their waiting rooms and toilets? I find it hard to believe that renting out the buildings and laying off cleaners isn’t being keenly considered.

 

[Ze Random One]

For me, one of the biggest issues is that I don't believe ticket machines and apps have a duty of impartiality, wheras ticket offices do.

Just the other week I was at a Southeastern station wanting to buy a ticket which wouldn't be valid until 1201. I couldn't buy that ticket from the machine at 1159. If there had been any sort of queue, I would have had to miss the 1203 that it was perfectly valid on. A ticket clerk can plainly see that the 1133 has gone, so I can't misuse that ticket to travel early. But no ticket office means rolling the dice

Contactless is no panacea either. My contactless card doesn't work on the bus because it requires immediate authorisation. Who's to say if it would work at an NR gateline? It'll work at a ticket machine because they are guaranteed to be online and it can also do the PIN verification, but that's a faff, and how much longer before the government will remove them too? Lots of other people are in that situation, particularly if they don't have a good credit score.

And no, apps are not a substitute either. Apps come with big privacy implications. For example, attached is the data that the Northern App collects.
Why the hell do I need to give permission for a TOC to know my name, email address, have access to my photos, purchase history yadda yadda to use a simple ticket for a public service to carry me from A to B?

 

[david1212]

I'm not sure it's just an older generation thing. I'm usually happy to buy from a ticket machine if I can, but for the vast majority of rail journeys I've made over the past year, the ticket machines are unable to sell me the ticket I want whereas a ticket office will readily sell it to me - and that's my prime reason for preferring ticket offices. Plus telling a human being what I want to buy is usually quicker than navigating ticket machine menus. As for online - in some cases, it's also not possible to buy the ticket I want online, but to be honest I find going through online journey planners a huge time-wasting faff compared to just rolling up at a ticket office and telling them what ticket I want. I typically only buy online if I want an advance ticket, or if I want a cycle reservation on a long distance train for which cycle reservations are compulsory and it's therefore prudent to book in advance.

If online websites provided a speedy option to just specify your origin and destination stations and select the ticket type and railcard (from the full range of tickets, including specific-operator tickets) without having to use a journey planner first, then maybe I'd buy online more often.

Exactly - even with waiting a few minutes the total time is quicker. I have yet to 'play' with the latest generation of TVM's but I wonder how long to buy three split tickets while under the pressure of knowing you are holding up the queue when the next person may want a very simple ticket or to collect ToD where not issued as Aztec e.g. London Travelcard ( while they still exist ) or ticket(s) with inclusive cross-London transfer. At the booking office window the three tickets can be issued and paid for within a minute.

Will every closed booking office window be replaced with an additional TVM?

As to the single staff being on the platform or by the TVM rather than the station becoming unmanned I am sceptical particularly where already the booking office is only open for a single shift e.g. 05:45 - 13:45. In winter with the TVM outdoors to be accessible 24/7 the working conditions would be far worse so reasonably the unions would raise this as an issue.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

At my local station, a lot of older people struggle to use the ticket machine, and (potentially dangerously) assume they’ll be able to “sort it out” at their destination if they can’t figure out how to buy what they want.

I’m always happy to help them when I have time. Might there be scope for passengers to take a short course to become “volunteer helpers” for other passengers to use the machines, thus softening the blow of ticket office closures?

 

[WAB]

under Mr Kahn all the tube offices have gone

Harmworthy Gods: they were closed on Boris Johnson’s watch…

 

[bramling]

Unfortunately, some booking office staff have done themselves out of a job.

With the political situation as it is, I don’t think this makes much of a difference.

The industry has been running down the booking office for many years, and we can’t really blame the staff for the fact that training (and in some cases management) has been deficient.

Fact is they’re an easy target, and it wouldn’t matter if they were absolutely brilliant, they’d still be in the same position now.

It’s been the same with banks - make branches unpleasant or impossible to use, then claim no one uses them.

 

[RailWonderer]

Making railways less user friendly for tourists, infrequent travellers, older travellers and anybody else who wants to speak to somebody knowledgeable is a huge mistake and very shortsighted. Those ticket officers could be retrained and used as staff in other parts of the station to keep there to make sure the railway is well tended to. Now I fear the railways will slowly turn into unstaffed unsafe areas ripe for vandalism and more crime. It will start with ticket officers then platform staff, then more DOO then soon enough the railways will be run down to the wire.

At GEML stations the ticket offices are very well used, I know for a fact using various GE stations for a decade now and I cannot imagine seeing them close, even if they are obviously quiet in the middle of the day. This blanket closure would be stupidity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing with banks is that online banking IS preferable to many people. Why go to a bank and queue to do something I can do myself now?

For good financial advice, if you need that, an independent advisor is the way.