Ticket office closures

[43066]

Passenger has invisible disability that prevents them for accessing the ticket machine. (Obvious example: it's on a faraway platform, and for any number of reasons it's a bad idea for them to be walking more than strictly necessary.) As such, they're entitled to board without a ticket and buy on board. It seems entirely likely that some guards/RPIs will require some convincing that their disability is real, and others will outright refuse to believe them and issue a penalty fare.

How is that situation really any different to the same person being unable to access a ticket office which is as the opposite end of a station?

And yes guards/RPIs absolutely would require some convincing that someone is able to get themselves to and from a station and travel, yet is apparently unable to buy a ticket. Anyone in that position should carry evidence of their disability.

The best solution for such a person would surely be an e-ticket they can purchase and download to their device without having to walk to either a TVM or a ticket office!?

 

[crablab]

I do own a power bank, and try to bring it with me, but often forget it, find it's not charged, or can't find it in the rush to leave home to catch a train. All surmountable issues, obviously!

There's a separate thread, but the issue seems not to be with eTickets themselves, but that one can be prosecuted if one's phone runs out of charge, is dropped or is lost/stolen. All unfortunate events, but ones which do occur.
Sure, people absolutely try it on. But since failing to show a valid ticket is a strict liability offence then if one's phone does run out, then you're in hot water.
And if the answer is that one must carry a powerbank and/or cable/charger compatible with onboard sockets and/or spare phone with ticket loaded and/or a printed copy of the ticket on every journey (pretty sure most people don't) then the flexibility of eTickets and/or the railway starts to diminish...

So I think this is an argument for reform of the Bylaws/RoRA and not really related to ticket office provision or a demonstration that eTickets are unsuitable (plainly, they are perfectly suitable for many journeys).

scanning a barcode or QR code just wouldn’t work on TFL. It just doesn’t seem to scan readily enough.

That said, the decreasing number of working magstripe readers at gatelines and increasing unfamiliarity with them (yes really) as eTickets/contactless take over doesn't necessarily mean a CCST is any quicker...

I think it's more likely that cross-London tickets and the Maltese cross will disappear. I'm sure there are a not insignificant number of people who don't ever realise what it is and touch in/out with contactless, despite an explanation being printed on the back of their ticket (anecdata: I've had to explain it to a few people).

Anyone in that position should carry evidence of their disability.

I'm not sure there would be any legal requirement for them to do so, and requiring them to do so may not be compliant with the Equality Act.

 

[43066]

I'm not sure there would be any legal requirement for them to do so, and requiring them to do so may not be compliant with the Equality Act.

There’s a general requirement to buy tickets before boarding and you will commit an offence by not doing so. If you have some reason why you cannot, you need to have some evidence as to why. That’s just common sense.

Unless you’re suggesting that guards should just accept anyone telling them “I can’t buy a ticket because of my disability” with absolutely no other evidence? The Equality Act requires reasonable adjustments to be made, but it doesn’t AFAIK preclude being asked for evidence to support a hidden disability.

 

[GusB]

How is the situation really any different to the same person being unable to access a ticket office which is as the opposite end of a station?

And yes guards/RPIs absolutely would require some convincing that someone is able to get themselves to and from a station and travel, yet is apparently unable to buy a ticket. Anyone in that position should carry evidence of their disability.

The best solution for such a person would surely he an e-ticket they can purchase and download to their device without having to walk to either a TVM or a ticket office!?

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this. My late mother was physically able to get to a station but would have faltered the moment she came across a TVM. She'd probably have got the hang of it after a couple of attempts but, unless there was someone to show her what to do, she'd have been lost. In ScotRail land it wouldn't have been that big a deal if she gave up and tried to buy on board, but I dread to think how she would have fared if there was the possibility of a penalty fare being issued.

 

[Bantamzen]

To buy a season ticket a photocard has always been needed. To get this it has always been necessary to go to a ticket office at a railway station. Has this Government and the train operators put in place a system to issue photocards without using a ticket office at a railway station? Or have they decided that a photocard will no longer be needed to buy a season ticket? I presume that in planning for the closure of all railway station ticket offices they must of course have considered this? I presume they have gone through the list of products and services that can only be obtained at railway station ticket offices and ensured that it is no longer necessary to go to a railway station ticket office for any of these products and services?

I can't speak for all operators because I don't know if they offer this function, but it is entirely possible to take & upload a passport-style photo online on your own devices to renew your passport (I did this in 2020). I also registered with the NHS, and got a vaccine certificate for travel during restrictions using the same tech. So I'm sure the same is possible with TOCs / NR etc.

 

[crablab]

If you have some reason why you cannot, you need to have some evidence as to why. That’s just common sense.

As I say, I'm not sure there's a legal requirement for anyone to provide "proof" of a disability on demand like that.

Just because the railway chooses to operate its business in a certain way, doesn't exclude them from the provisions of the Equality Act (to make reasonable adjustments, non-discrimination).

Unless you’re suggesting that guards should just accept anyone telling them “I can’t buy a ticket because of my disability”.

And yes, just because someone is disabled doesn't exclude them from buying a ticket.

But the railway is legally required to make reasonable adjustments, and preventing disabled passengers from accessing services (or penalising them for doing so) because of their disability would likely be unlawful.

I don't know what the solution is here. In many cases an eTicket may solve this issue, but particularly with age (another protected characteristic) and disability, suitable provisions would need to be made. I imagine there are existing impact assessments for unstaffed stations which answer this

The passenger assist provision at unstaffed stations is, as I understand it, already somewhat controversial (as to whether it is fully compliant with the law)

 

[43066]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this. My late mother was physically able to get to a station but would have faltered the moment she came across a TVM. She'd probably have got the hang of it after a couple of attempts but, unless there was someone to show her what to do, she'd have been lost. In ScotRail land it wouldn't have been that big a deal if she gave up and tried to buy on board, but I dread to think how she would have fared if there was the possibility of a penalty fare being issued.

That’s all perfectly valid, but probably an argument against de staffing rather than closing ticket offices per se (although I do share the concern that ticket office reform is a euphemism for destaffing/cost saving).

As I say, I'm not sure there's a legal requirement for anyone to provide "proof" of a disability on demand like that.

Just because the railway chooses to operate it's business in a certain way, doesn't exclude them from the provisions of the Equality Act (to make reasonable adjustments, non-discrimination).

There’s nothing to prevent the railway asking for evidence that someone is entitled to the reasonable adjustment being made in the first place. Especially when, on the face of it, the person is committing an offence. Fairly obviously there will be no need to ask in a lot of cases, but you specifically mentioned a hidden disability.

Things like the passenger assist provision at unstaffed stations is, as I understand it, already somewhat controversial (as to whether it is fully compliant with the law)

It is controversial (and quite possibly isn’t compliant!), but again - this is an argument against de-staffing, rather than against ticket office closure?

 

[crablab]

Again - this is an argument against de-staffing, rather than against ticket office closure?

Well I think they're somewhat linked and closing ticket offices potentially exacerbates de-staffing and the issue of equal access that we're discussing, depending on how it's implemented.

There’s nothing to prevent the railway asking for evidence that someone is entitled to the reasonable adjustment being made in the first place. Especially when, on the face of it, the person is committing an offence. Fairly obviously there will be no need to ask in a lot of cases, but you specifically mentioned a hidden disability.

AIUI there is no provision in the Equality Act to require proof to be tendered.

Failing to provide reasonable adjustments or discriminating against someone with a disability on the basis that 'satisfactory proof' had not been obtained might not be lawful. From memory I think there have been parallel examples relating to assistance dogs.

(IANAL - maybe someone who's read more of the Act can draw our attention to the relevant provision, or cite the applicable case law)

For completeness, @Gaelan provided the example - not me

 

[JamieL]

Well I think they're somewhat linked and closing ticket offices potentially exacerbates de-staffing and the issue of equal access that we're discussing, depending on how it's implemented.


AIUI there is no provision in the Equality Act to require proof to be tendered.

Failing to provide reasonable adjustments or discriminating against someone with a disability on the basis that 'satisfactory proof' had not been obtained might not be lawful. From memory I think there have been parallel examples relating to assistance dogs.

(IANAL - maybe someone who's read more of the Act can draw our attention to the relevant provision, or cite the applicable case law)

For completeness, @Gaelan provided the example - not me

It is seriously off topic but matters such as theft and misappropriation are excluded from the definition of disability under the Act and therefore reasonable efforts to prevent them are entirely consistent with the provisions of the legislation. Moreover, dishonest representation of disability could some circumstances it could even be used as an aggravating factor.

 

[43066]

Well I think they're somewhat linked and closing ticket offices potentially exacerbates de-staffing and the issue of equal access that we're discussing, depending on how it's implemented.

I agree with the concern around destaffing, but it will be countered by the claim that staff are being redeployed rather than removed.

AIUI there is no provision in the Equality Act to require proof to be tendered.

There isn’t, but there’s also nothing to prevent proof being asked for to ensure the person is entitled to the reasonable adjustments being requested from the service provider.

Someone who isn’t obviously disabled trotting out “I’m disabled” as a reason for having behaved in a way that is illegal, is going to regularly have arguments/disputes unless they can prove it. Hence why most people in this position will carry some evidence - even if it’s just “self certification” in the form of a sunflower lanyard or similar.

 

[Paul Duck]

It strikes (perhaps a poor choice of word ) me that the extremes on both sides of this issue are extremely unhelpful and, to be honest, likely to be a detriment to everyone.

Is it correct that ticket offices play a significantly reduced role in issuing tickets? Yes, unarguably so. Anyone who pretends otherwise is being daft all the numbers tell us that fewer tickets are being sold by ticket offices to fewer passengers.

Is it correct that still, in some situations, ticket offices play an important role in retail matters? Yes, unarguably so. Anyone who pretends otherwise is being daft and everyone can think of situations where a member of staff with detailed training on retailing tickets will be the best way for a passenger to access the railway. Whether that's granny Smith going from Bognor Regis to visit the grandchildren in Bolton needing a ticket clerk to help sort out her reservations and tickets, a member of railway staff wanting to buy a Priv rate ticket, a tourist fresh of the plane with no knowledge of the UK railway network or an enthusiast after a rover or ranger.

Arguing the toss about those two different positions wastes everyone's time and energy on matters which are, frankly, irrelevant.

For more useful is probably to try and take a slightly more objective view of where it makes sense to deploy staff behind traditional counters dedicated to retailing tickets (airport stations, major London/other large city stations, tourist hotspots all seem logical places), where it make sense to have staff in a more hybrid role where they're roving slightly more around the station (so they might be helping with passenger assistance, helping passengers with general queries, helping passengers who need a ticket but are struggling, etc) and where, fundamentally, it might make more sense to just de-staff the station completely.

Thinking local to me I can see an argument for de-staffing Redcar Central. The waiting room is only open when the ticket office is (which is typically only between 0700 and 1330) there is only a disabled toilet (which has radar key access so is actually accessible at all times not just when the waiting room is open) and station facilities wise that's about it. Considering the station is unstaffed after 1330 I'm not sure it's really going to make a massive difference if it was unstaffed all the time. The ticket office certainly gets used but it's been a while since I've seen a massive queue like you would have seen in years gone by. Meanwhile somewhere like Middlesbrough where the station is staffed all day, it's a substantial building and the ticket office is open most of the day (from 0600 ish until 1900 ish) but again doesn't see that much trade and perhaps here an approach of having a good bank of TVMs (there's only one at the moment) with staff more mobile around the station (but there to dip and help out with retail issues as needed) would make sense.

The present situation of just ticket offices open which sell only a few tickets an hour doesn't seem sustainable but getting into a bunfight about it all doesn't seem especially productive compared to thinking about how the resources involved could actually be best deployed. In some places that will be to keep a traditional ticket office, in some places that will likely be outright closure and de-staffing, and in others probably a change in the role of the staff at that station.

RMT/TSSA would, if they hadn't have been riled up by DfT/HMT intransigence more generally, be best served I suspect in working on that basis to get the best deal for their members. But it seems, from this thread at least, we're about to have exactly the same extreme fight where one side insist that no changes can be countenanced at all and the other side insists that everything must change and do so immediately.

With working at Middlesbrough from time to time including 2 12 hour shifts over the weekend it is a very busy ticket office throughout the day. I’ve seen this stat about 1in 8 tickets are sold in ticket offices, well having seen the figures for Middlesbrough this is close to 1 in 5 and even 1 in 4 in some periods. On Saturday we had to get extra staff in to help at the ticket office as we were expecting a very busy day with the weather.

 

[43066]

Moreover, dishonest representation of disability could some circumstances it could even be used as an aggravating factor.

And sadly this does happen, and cheapens the concept of disability overall (agreed it’s wildly off topic).

 

[tomuk]

AIUI there is no provision in the Equality Act to require proof to be tendered.

Is there not a parallel with applying for and displaying blue parking badges, you need one to use on street disabled parking bays you don't just park the car and tell the traffic warden you have a disability.

Maybe there is a wider discussion to be had on concessionary passes/railcards.

 

[Paul Duck]

Sick to death of the comments from the government about needing to get out from behind the glass more!
If they took the time to visit us all in the North East they would see us doing all sorts out from behind the glass. Who do they think does:
Laying of ramps
Provide sighted guidance
Ensure on time departure and safe departure of services
Shovelling snow for hours
Re stocking TVM’s
Resetting TVM (virtually everyday) to bring back on line
Cleaning up on a morning
Keeping lifts in working order
Sorting out car park issues
Opens the waiting rooms
Opens the toilets
Help with people fleeing domestic violence
Help with medical emergencies on board trains
Stopping someone from ending their life
Sort out the events after someone has ended their life

No one has yet come up with the figure shutting ticket offices will save. How much of this (apparent) 10% of tickets sold through the ticket office will be retained?

 

[JamieL]

Sick to death of the comments from the government about needing to get out from behind the glass more!
If they took the time to visit us all in the North East they would see us doing all sorts out from behind the glass. Who do they think does:
Laying of ramps
Provide sighted guidance
Ensure on time departure and safe departure of services
Shovelling snow for hours
Re stocking TVM’s
Resetting TVM (virtually everyday) to bring back on line
Cleaning up on a morning
Keeping lifts in working order
Sorting out car park issues
Opens the waiting rooms
Opens the toilets
Help with people fleeing domestic violence
Help with medical emergencies on board trains
Stopping someone from ending their life
Sort out the events after someone has ended their life

No one has yet come up with the figure shutting ticket offices will save. How much of this (apparent) 10% of tickets sold through the ticket office will be retained?

Unfortunately with the current Government it is ideology and rhetoric over reality. They need red meat to throw to their base.

 

[yorkie]

Passenger has invisible disability that prevents them for accessing the ticket machine. (Obvious example: it's on a faraway platform, and for any number of reasons it's a bad idea for them to be walking more than strictly necessary.) As such, they're entitled to board without a ticket and buy on board. It seems entirely likely that some guards/RPIs will require some convincing that their disability is real, and others will outright refuse to believe them and issue a penalty fare.

You are right that some on board staff do not behave appropriately, but this is a minority and that specific issue needs to be addressed by the rail industry.

Most stations are already unstaffed anyway, and even major stations typically don't have an open ticket office for several hours each day

Therefore, the problem you describe is happening on occasion regardless of these proposals.

It's not correct to conclude that the solution for such poor behaviour is for ticket offices to always be open, if that is what is being suggested; the solution to this problem is for train companies to make reasonable efforts to implement appropriate safeguards to ensure the appropriate behaviour of on board staff. If this isn't in place, mistreatment of passengers will still occur, regardless of whether ticket offices are open or closed. They are separate matters.

I was responding to your workaround for battery failure: printing a ticket at home requires advance planning and a printer at home; a power bank is an extra object to purchase and remember to carry around. For reference I'm in Scotland with a digital railcard and a bad phone battery, so while I can't use an eTicket (I refuse to use mTickets, among other reasons because my preferred app won't issue them) I frequently run into issues with my battery dying before I can show the guard my railcard on the return trip home. I do own a power bank, and try to bring it with me, but often forget it, find it's not charged, or can't find it in the rush to leave home to catch a train. All surmountable issues, obviously! But more faff. But yes, sorry, probably not worth rehashing much further.

Yes this was debated in previous threads, so I refer you to my previous responses.

 

[kw12]

Someone mentioned Reading West upthread, they’re still in the process of spending some millions there to build a completely new ticket office. Wonder if it will ever be used…

It will be interesting to see what happens at the likes of Oxford Parkway - when I was last there, there was a member of staff set up in what was very much a help desk, who was able to sell some tickets using a tablet if I remember correctly - I wonder if this is the model other stations will be soon to adopt, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing in my opinion.

Nearby Reading Green Park opened last month. According to Modern Railways, this station has "a retail office (which enables staff to sell tickets but not from a traditional ticket office window)". This may also be the intention at Reading West and sounds similar to what happens at Oxford Parkway. Perhaps similar "retail offices" will be used more widely.

 

[island]

I have to admit that whilst I am no fan of the Tory government - the railways needs to move on and embrace contactless tap in and tap off to replace TVM usage and paper tickets.

I tap in at Kings Cross and forget to tap out. What fare am I charged? Bear in mind I could have travelled to Finsbury Park (£2.80) or Inverness (£210), or anywhere in between, to say nothing of the possibility I changed trains.

There’s no reason to use cash in this day and age.

Rangers and Rover tickets should move to e-tickets or be made based on area / zonal specific capping.

I do agree with this.

It’s not just modifying the gates that’s the problem - LU has identified the barcode scanning is too slow and the throughput will be insufficient without expanding gatelines.

That's why, if you have a machine to issue gate passes, you put it in the National Rail part of the station where there is more space. It could then issue either CCST or disposable smartcards encoded to allow the holder through the LU gateline. It would take development and education, but it's certainly feasible.

In the cases like this the postage should also be refunded.

On the few occasions I have needed to post physical tickets in for a refund I have been given a Freepost address to send to. Most of the time they will accept a photo of the tickets cut in two.

I thought Tfl and DfT\RDG had agreed that barcode readers will be fitted to gates at London Terminals and other high traffic transfer stations so cross London transfer flows can switch to e-tickets.

My understanding is that the stations in question were not the stations with transfers but rather the stations managed b pay TfL (and its subsidiaries) at which National Rail trains call. But I may well have missed a development.

 

[RPI]

I do agree with that. It has been inevitable for years and the railway does have to adapt and move with the times.

However, given the current government’s approach to the wider railway, there’s no reason to suppose that this reform will be treated as anything other than yet another opportunity to save costs, without any thought whatsoever given to improving the service passengers receive.

Another concern has to be the complexity of the ticketing system - ticket offices (at least the good ones) can give advice on what ticket is best for any given situation (eg I was offered a weekender rather than two singles last week by my local ticket office). I doubt that level of knowledge will be easily accessible online for those who have no interest in the subject of ticketing, and it likely also won’t be available from a grunting oik in an On Trak hi viz!



Businesses are free to go cashless if they wish. There are good reasons for doing so. You are equally free to take your custom elsewhere.

Or as two chains found out recently in my town, going cashless made most of their customers go elsewhere, they both backtracked within a week.
I generally use card but I do like the option of cash too. There are many good reasons (which this isn't the place to go into them) why an entirely cashless society is a bad idea.

 

[43096]

If my gym is anything to go by, scanning a barcode or QR code just wouldn’t work on TFL. It just doesn’t seem to scan readily enough.

If my experience of eTickets and paper tickets is anything to go by, the eTickets would be far more reliable. Perfectly valid paper tickets routinely get rejected at barriers, even five minutes after being issued.

 

[crablab]

matters such as theft and misappropriation are excluded from the definition of disability under the Act and therefore reasonable efforts to prevent them are entirely consistent with the provisions of the legislation.

It's not a total 'get out' clause though - for example stop and search & the tendancy for it to be used on a certain demographic is problematic and has been challenged in the past But yes, agreed.

(And there's still no requirement to carry or present any form of 'proof')

And sadly this does happen, and cheapens the concept of disability overall (agreed it’s wildly off topic).

Agreed.

 

[RPI]

Or just do away with photocards and accept the odd bit of passing around. They already have for weeklies.

That said, if ITSO is the future for seasons a personalised ITSO card with photo orderable online or by post isn't a stretch.

Or make season tickets only valid with a form of photographic ID such as a drivers licence, bus pas, library card or whatever.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Go to Cambridge North on a Saturday and see the queues that build up as people try to get the TVMs to work, and how many people need to ask the staff for help. A station that size really should have been built with a ticket office and have it operating a good chunk of the time. Not having the office doesn't obviously save money as the staff still need to be there.

And this is a relatively small station mostly serving locals on easy trips. How are bigger stations with more challenges from passengers supposed to cope?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Go to Cambridge North on a Saturday and see the queues that build up as people try to get the TVMs to work, and how many people need to ask the staff for help. A station that size really should have been built with a ticket office and have it operating a good chunk of the time. Not having the office doesn't obviously save money as the staff still need to be there.

And this is a relatively small station mostly serving locals on easy trips. How are bigger stations with more challenges from passengers supposed to cope?

What type of TVMs are installed there? Round these parts people mostly just use them without much fuss, or buy online and collect if necessary.

 

[GWVillager]

One thing I never see discussed enough (it may have been mentioned up thread but I’ve already read 4 pages and another 2 have already been added!) is how this will affect children travelling alone. Many TVMs (possibly most) only accept card payments, and many children obviously do not have a card.

Of course, this will also affect (usually homeless) people who have no bank account and thus cannot use a card either. I know this is more of a cash debate than anything, but when you’re restricting huge swathes of a transport network - many people’s only way to get around - to card only with this change, that’s not really fair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I never see discussed enough (it may have been mentioned up thread but I’ve already read 4 pages and another 2 have already been added!) is how this will affect children travelling alone. Many TVMs (possibly most) only accept card payments, and many children obviously do not have a card.

This has affected my nephew who uses Northern a fair bit (and finds the "promise to pay" thing a bit complex, not to mention that Merseyrail refuse to play ball with them). They got him a card. Prepaid debit cards like GoHenry are available to all children who are old enough to be out on their own. They do cost a small fee, but in return for that you get other card type benefits like not losing the money if it's lost as it can be cancelled, the ability to load money remotely if they've messed up or if they need money unexpectedly e.g. for a taxi home after being stranded and so on.

How to deal with homeless people is a rather different debate, but I see a positive side of this being that those who choose to be homeless and wilfully decline help won't be able to do that any more, and we'll know that those holding out card machines aren't necessarily what they seem. My personal view is that I won't give directly and prefer to donate to homeless charities, because they can bring more overall benefit to the situation rather than perpetuating it - nobody giving £10 to a person on the street ever helped get them away from there, quite the opposite, and that has to be the aim, not only for their benefit but because wilful vagrancy isn't something that should be accepted in a civilised society, as begging by choice is just petty crime.

 

[cuccir]

With working at Middlesbrough from time to time including 2 12 hour shifts over the weekend it is a very busy ticket office throughout the day. I’ve seen this stat about 1in 8 tickets are sold in ticket offices, well having seen the figures for Middlesbrough this is close to 1 in 5 and even 1 in 4 in some periods. On Saturday we had to get extra staff in to help at the ticket office as we were expecting a very busy day with the weather.

It would be interesting to understand if there's a correlation between income and use of ticket offices.

I would hypothesize that under a certain income level (which would be more concentrated in eg Middlesbrough) use of ticket offices would be higher because of: (1) a correlation between income and IT/general literacy, and (2) because of less access to the 'infrastructure' required to buy via TVMs/online eg credit cards, smartphones, mobile data/WiFi.* Add to this the fact that infrequent travellers, who will be a higher percentage of travellers at the weekend, are also more likely to use a ticket office and I can see that it could be a higher demand location and time.

*Before the inevitable responses - I'm talking a general correlation, not a universal rule, and I'm fully aware that there are plenty of counter examples and that poverty is found throughout the country. But if being in, say, the lower two income declies made you x% more likely to use a ticket office, and Middlebsrough has y% more people from these declies than most places, then the result would be a z% increase in demand, which would presumably be repeated in other areas of higher deprivation.

 

[GWVillager]

This has affected my nephew who uses Northern a fair bit (and finds the "promise to pay" thing a bit complex, not to mention that Merseyrail refuse to play ball with them). They got him a card. Prepaid debit cards like GoHenry are available to all children who are old enough to be out on their own. They do cost a small fee, but in return for that you get other card type benefits like not losing the money if it's lost as it can be cancelled, the ability to load money remotely if they've messed up or if they need money unexpectedly e.g. for a taxi home after being stranded and so on.

That is a good point, they can be a useful alternative. However, the cost of a GoHenry account is still a small ‘subscription fee’, if you will, to use trains, which doesn’t have to be paid by anyone else. And the complication of setting up accounts and transferring money, whilst obviously not rocket science, is just another inconvenience that could put parents off rail travel. A minor problem, but one nonetheless.

 

[stuu]

That is a good point, they can be a useful alternative. However, the cost of a GoHenry account is still a small ‘subscription fee’, if you will, to use trains, which doesn’t have to be paid by anyone else. And the complication of setting up accounts and transferring money, whilst obviously not rocket science, is just another inconvenience that could put parents off rail travel. A minor problem, but one nonetheless.

There are cards and accounts for children which don't have any fees. My son has one with Hyperjar. It is far less of a faff to sit on the sofa and transfer money via an app than to walk to the nearest ATM and withdraw money

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are cards and accounts for children which don't have any fees. My son has one with Hyperjar. It is far less of a faff to sit on the sofa and transfer money via an app than to walk to the nearest ATM and withdraw money

And the massive benefit of this is that if the kid is stranded you can transfer as much as is necessary to get them home safely without just giving them a £20 note and risking it'll be stolen by bullies or spent on sweets, and you can see that that's what they spent it on, too. And if the card is lost or stolen by bullies it can be stopped, unlike cash in a wallet or pocket.

It's inconceivable to me that anyone in 2023 wouldn't want their kid to have one of these, even with a fee (which is quite small, a couple of quid a month I think, on the ones that charge).

From age 16 (mid 1990s) I had an authorised user card on my Dad's credit card, with a strict rule of "you phone and ask me before you use it". That obviously carried an element of trust. But why would you not have something that has the capability of that without the trust risk and at more or less any age where a kid would be out unaccompanied? And obviously if old enough they can have a conventional online-only debit card on their bank account anyway, I think that's from 13?