Ticket with odd route

[BlueFox]

I've discovered a ticket on BRfares with a really strange route. It involves going in the wrong direction, then changing trains and going back in the right direction, through your original station.


I won't give the real details, as it could be a loophole that some people are using, so here's an example using different stations.

It would be like a Newcastle to Glasgow ticket, routed via York. It would be slightly cheaper than a direct Newcastle to Glasgow ticket, and much cheaper than York to Glasgow.
When you use the National Rail website to search for Newcastle to Glasgow via York, it would offer you this ticket, and give you an itinerary that takes you to York, then back in the opposite direction through Newcastle to Glasgow.

There is no sensible alternative route making use of the via point, so I can see no logic to the ticket.


I've done a forum search and found this ticket was mentioned five years ago. It was suggested that the double back wouldn't be allowed, and you'd have to do the "York to Glasgow" part of the journey via the shortest route that doesn't go via Newcastle. If this is the case it opens up all sorts of possible journeys that would be cheaper than the 'proper' ticket.


How could a ticket like this come about, and if it's true you can't double back, why does the NR website say you can?

 

[Romilly]

There are valid tickets for some routes where, often because of a low level of service, some form of doubling-back is permitted, e.g. you can go one station north to then catch a southbound train that doesn't call at your starting station.

 

[BlueFox]

There are valid tickets for some routes where, often because of a low level of service, some form of doubling-back is permitted, e.g. you can go one station north to then catch a southbound train that doesn't call at your starting station.

That's not the case in this situation though. It involves busy mainline stations where nearly all trains stop, and a significant journey in the wrong direction, passing through other stations on the way that also have regular services.

 

[greatkingrat]

Could just be a mistake, maybe it is supposed to be routed via somewhere else but the wrong route code has been entered. Is the ticket priced by the same TOC as the Any Permitted version?

 

[BlueFox]

Could just be a mistake, maybe it is supposed to be routed via somewhere else but the wrong route code has been entered. Is the ticket priced by the same TOC as the Any Permitted version?

It is the same TOC (Crosscountry). I wouldn't expect them to be pricing this route though, you wouldn't normally use one of their trains, unless you go via an indirect route.
Maybe the indirect route is the one that's supposed to have the cheaper fare, but it doesn't really make sense for it to be cheaper to go that way.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

There are valid tickets for some routes where, often because of a low level of service, some form of doubling-back is permitted, e.g. you can go one station north to then catch a southbound train that doesn't call at your starting station.

This happens at New Clee should one want to travel to Cleethorpes. You get a train from there to Grimsby, cross to the other platform and pass back through New Clee

 

[CyrusWuff]

Could just be a mistake, maybe it is supposed to be routed via somewhere else but the wrong route code has been entered. Is the ticket priced by the same TOC as the Any Permitted version?

Another possibility is that it's a cluster-based pricing issue, or one journey is priced by a long distance operator and the other by a different operator.

Fare anomalies are plentiful, such as:

A Beaconsfield to St Albans City Anytime Day Return routed "✠ VIA LONDON" is £24.50
A Beaconsfield to Zone U1 Anytime Day Return is £29.20

Season Tickets aren't immune from anomalies either:

A 7 Day Season between Denham and Wembley Stadium (in Travelcard Zone 4) is £34.40
A 7 Day Travelcard between Denham and Zones 4-6 is £32.80

 

[FenMan]

Another possibility is that it's a cluster-based pricing issue

I'm a fan of cluster-based pricing issues.

 

[BlueFox]

Another possibility is that it's a cluster-based pricing issue, or one journey is priced by a long distance operator and the other by a different operator.

No. As I mentioned earlier, the 'odd' ticket and the any permitted are priced by the same TOC, Crosscountry.

It's not one of the many examples of a ticket being cheaper if you buy it for somewhere a few miles beyond where you want to go.
This is a ticket that takes you 70 miles in the opposite direction to your destination, then doubles back and takes you through the station you started from.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If its the route I think it is (involving two places 70+ miles apart with similar names) then there is a long standing authority to travel with the 'double back', due to the negligible number of services if any which make the simpler direct route.
The 'journey planner' software used by many train operating companies will sell you tickets via the remote station and back, and the on-board crews will not give those tickets a second glance - the journey will be fine.

And if it's not the route I think it is, then just carry a print of the itinery issued at the point of purchase - in itself, the itinery is not an assurance of an authority to travel if there is also conflicting information which in this example might be quite compelling, but it is evidence of some legitimacy which should be regarded for what it is - a term of the contract.

But if it is clearly an error, and there is a regular service between the origin and destination without it ever being quicker the long way round, then I would not advise using it as the deliberate exploitation of an error for the passenger's advantage and the Company's disadvantage would amount to a fraud.

 

[BlueFox]

If its the route I think it is (involving two places 70+ miles apart with similar names) then there is a long standing authority to travel with the 'double back', due to the negligible number of services if any which make the simpler direct route.
The 'journey planner' software used by many train operating companies will sell you tickets via the remote station and back, and the on-board crews will not give those tickets a second glance - the journey will be fine.

And if it's not the route I think it is, then just carry a print of the itinery issued at the point of purchase - in itself, the itinery is not an assurance of an authority to travel if there is also conflicting information which in this example might be quite compelling, but it is evidence of some legitimacy which should be regarded for what it is - a term of the contract.

But if it is clearly an error, and there is a regular service between the origin and destination without it ever being quicker the long way round, then I would not advise using it as the deliberate exploitation of an error for the passenger's advantage and the Company's disadvantage would amount to a fraud.

It's not the route you think it is.

I used the examples of Newcastle, Glasgow and York because in many ways they're similar to the stations on the route I'm talking about. I'm not taking about a remote station with a limited service.

it's clearly an error - but it is possible to buy the ticket with seat reservations, so presumably it would have to be accepted.
If you're travelling from A to B, it would make no sense to go via C as it would turn a two hour journey into a four hour journey. But buying the ticket and using it to go directly from A to B would save some money, and buying it to go directly from C to B would save even more.

It's interesting that you say it would be fraud. I'm one of the many people who took advantage of the £1 Tweedbank to various stations in the Inverness and Glasgow areas that were clearly an error, but I can't remember seeing any suggestion that it was fraudulent to buy those tickets.

 

[Starmill]

That's because Dave Newcastle was expressing his view of what constitutes fraud.

Many people don't agree with that, and there are many different views on the same facts.

 

[najaB]

That's because Dave Newcastle was expressing his view of what constitutes fraud.

I think it's accepted that knowingly and deliberately taking advantage of an obvious pricing mistake without attempting to ensure the trader knows about it constitutes fraud.

It's rarely (if ever) prosecuted though, so a bit of a moot point.

 

[ScotTrains]

There was also the Exeter to Exeter Central via (insert almost any UK station) tickets a few months ago. Did anyone make use of these? I think the reason was put down to engineering works at the time. A few of the train companies said it would be valid if the itinerary said so.