Tickets didn't print: Help needed please!

[Laurajane]

Hi,

As a new poster apologies in advance if I'm not posting correctly, but really hoping to get some advice.

At 6.30am tomorrow morning I am due to travel from Glasgow Central to Telford. I booked the tickets through East Coast (because of their good rewards system!) and went this afternoon to Glasgow station to collect them as I have an early start tomorrow.

I used a ScotRail machine to collect them, the machine went through the process of printing all 6 tickets including seat reservations but when I went to pick them up there was only one ticket there - the outward section of my off peak return. Thinking that the machine ran out of paper or something I called the station manager over. He was adamant that it is not a fault with the machine, and on his system there was no record of my booking through that machine. I told me to call East Coast which I did. East Coast said their systems show the booking as having printed the tickets at Glasgow Central so there is nothing they can do.

I went back to the station manager who still says it's East Coast's problem. He asks me to ask East a Coast to fax confirmation of my booking to Glasgow station and they will issue my tickets. But on calling East Coast they can't do this because the tickets have been 'printed'. I put East Coast onto a member of station staff who said that the machine was the problem ( going against the station manager). ScotRail said they can't access their machines because it's outsourced to another company. After spending an hour at the station ScotRail said they will speak to their customer service and see what can be done. But they still have no solution for me. I can travel in the morning to Telford, but can't at the moment get back to Glasgow on Sunday.

I guess my question is two parts; first, who fault/problem is this and who should I be putting pressure on to resolve? And second what are the possible resolutions here? could ScotRail write me a letter to say what's happened? Would train guards coming back find this acceptable? (It's Virgin trains and Arriva trains Wales) or should I buy a single from telford to glasgow and try and claim it back?

Any help anyone can give tonight would be so appreciated. I've been frustrated to the point of tears tonight and really at a lost as to what to do. Also sorry for the long thread!

Thank you

 

[Class377]

Non-expert POV here, but it sounds like a fault with the machine. I had a similar problem with one of London Midland's machines at Watford Junction before, and ticket office staff send someone over within 2 minutes to open the machine up and find that the innards were a bit "sticky" and the tickets had printed but not put into the trough to be collected.

 

[bb21]

Would it be possible to upload a picture of what you have?

WebTIS engine (which East Coast use) are known to experience certain problems when there are multiple bookings in the same transaction.

Are you able to tell me,

(1) What tickets you booked in that particular transaction?
(2) What payment method you used?
(3) What the machine said after it supposedly printed all your tickets?

 

[furlong]

It sounds like this situation wasn't handled very well at all, and you should think about putting in a separate complaint to each of the companies involved.

Even if the staff didn't have a key to open the machine, did they:

1) Reach up inside to feel for any tickets that might have got stuck? (This is a common problem.)

2) Try to issue another ticket through the machine to check that it did come out OK, and if it did, compare its sequential ticket number against the number on the ticket you did obtain? (This might also dislodge trapped tickets.)

3) Contact whatever helpline they have for the machines to check the machine's log of what it believes it issued?


Nobody on here is likely to advise you to travel without a ticket in your hand unless staff have authorised that in a way you can easily demonstrate (e.g. in writing). So you might end up buying a new ticket and then seeking compensation by writing to their "customer services" department (or ultimately claiming breach of contract through the courts).


At your destination, do not put the ticket you do have through an automated barrier that might retain it - tell staff you need to keep it.

 

[reb0118]

Also sorry for the long thread!

No, not at all.

I assume that you will be travelling now - has the issue been resolved? I am a guard and I can honestly say that the bulk of ticketing problems I encounter on a daily basis emanate from TVMs (Ticket Vending Machines). I know that on occasion my personal ticket machine can fail (as can machines in a booking office) but, crucially, there is a member of staff there to confirm this, and in most cases rectify this to the passengers satisfaction.

If the situation has not been resolved prior to your return, then I would suggest, if you have been unable to get a ticket for your return journey, to attempt to speak to the guard before boarding (or immediately afterwards) and explain the situation re. the failure to print the return portion of your ticket & reservation coupons. Some guards have access to a "guards report" with reservation & passenger details and may be able to confirm your story - esp. if your name is included in the reservation details. You would have to do this for each train that you travelled on.

What may happen:-

1) You will be asked to purchase a ticket from the guard to cover your journey. You should be told to retain this and contact customer services to resolve any issues. Further to that I would request a receipt and ask the guard if possible to put a wee note on the back of his shift sheet (there is space for this on the back on the bottom of the page) along the lines of "Ticket xxxxx issued to [your name] as passenger unable to obtain valid ticket from TVM prior to travel". This will confirm the paper trail when it comes to claiming your refund for this ticket from ScotRail.

NB! If asked to purchase a ticket on board then do not feel aggrieved as this is the correct procedure in circumstances like yours - make sure that the ticket will cover you for your full journey to Glasgow and once again require a receipt.

2) You may be required to provide your details so that further investigations can take place. Remember that a guard employed by ATW will not have easy access to information regarding TVM failures at Glasgow Central a few days previously. You may be issued with a "zero fare" ticket to complete your journey home, if not, you may be required to give your details on each train you travel on.

3) There is a chance (slim) that the guard may let you travel on his authority without a valid ticket - this will apply only for his train whilst he is in charge of it. Therefore you may have to explain yourself a few times.

Good luck!

p.s Based on the information provided by the OP, who does the forum think is to blame here? My thoughts are that it is ScotRail as it was their machine that had failed to issue all the tickets, further to this they do not seem to have any personnel based at Glasgow Central able to swiftly resolve any TVM issues - I could be wrong though.

 

[Centr8l]

Do we know what type/types of TVM are at Glasgow Central?

 

[maniacmartin]

I would always use only TVMs operated by the company that runs the ticket office at the station you are at if possible, as it avoids the buck-passing when things go wrong. It's stupid that TOCs are allowed to run TVMs at staffed stations where none of the staff present have access to them.

I've seen a very similar incident happen late at night with FCC machines at Kings Cross where only East Coast staff were present, and we not able to offer much assistance.

 

[johnnychips]

At Donny I picked up about 28 ticket coupons for a split ticket journey to Oxford and two UK legs of two Eurostar returns. All went well until it didn't print all of the first set of Donny-London E* tickets. I put my fingers up but couldn't feel them. Thinking it had run out of tickets, I moved to the adjacent machine to get the last set. While I was doing this, I noticed a woman was busy using the previous machine. I warned her I had had a problem but she said, "It's too late now!" However, the machine roared into action, and lo and behold, my missing tickets appeared as well as hers.

When I got home and sorted the tickets out, I found a reservation ticket for someone else, associated with an advance. The machine was definitely empty when I started using it, so I expect mine pushed it out.

1. Whom do I report the problem to?
2. If the lady hadn't have been there, I suppose I would have rung EC, and they would have told me the tickets had indeed been issued. What would happen?
3. The ticket that isn't mine has a very unusual surname, which is the same as a girl I teach. I'll give dad a ring on Monday, but if it isn't his, should I take the ticket back to Donny, or ring HT, whose advance it is?

 

[causton]

1. Whomever operates the TVM, do not speak to anyone in the station as they (and by they, I mean we, as I know this problem has happened with one of the TVMs that I deal with) I would speak to customer services, as we report there is a design fault with the TVMs where the tickets do not go into the chute no matter how much you clean and reposition the printer for them inside! Thankfully we only have one of this style of TVM (Shere) in the booking hall where this problem happens, and people usually avoid it. It seems to get slightly better after maintenance but is still not perfect!
2. Probably buying new tickets and claiming a refund from whomever, I suspect, such is the way things work! There is absolutely no way to reprint the ticket (from my ticket office at least) once the system has marked it as printed.
3. Probably HT, they could put a memo out to the conductor(s) involved.

 

[johnnychips]

Cheers! Number 2 reply is interesting. I suppose I would have rung E*, simply because their customer service is outstanding.

 

[DEE-DE]

I've had a similiar issue but in my case it was just the collection receipt and on Plusbus ticket that were missing. It came out but was damaged and nothing was printed on it. Then the ticket machine proceded to spit out a long roll of empty tickets still connected to each other. This stopped when it had realised it had broken. I took a few empties as to have some proof. Bought a new Plusbus the next morning because they couldn't reissue them.
I had booked via ScotRail and the machine was also a ScotRail machine. I was told to do a refund online but that didn't work too well because you can't select the Plusbus. But I got a form at the station which I filled out. Sent the form, the empty tickets and the new Plusbus off to ScotRail's freepost address. A month later I got a voucher for the £2.10 ticket and £5 extra because it took them longer than a month.

 

[Haywain]

1. Whomever operates the TVM, do not speak to anyone in the station as they (and by they, I mean we, as I know this problem has happened with one of the TVMs that I deal with) I would speak to customer services, as we report there is a design fault with the TVMs where the tickets do not go into the chute no matter how much you clean and reposition the printer for them inside! Thankfully we only have one of this style of TVM (Shere) in the booking hall where this problem happens, and people usually avoid it. It seems to get slightly better after maintenance but is still not perfect!

That is bizarre advice. In the first instance, always speak to booking office staff as soon as possible as if there is a fault with the machine they may be in a position to assist.

 

[SickyNicky]

That is bizarre advice. In the first instance, always speak to booking office staff as soon as possible as if there is a fault with the machine they may be in a position to assist.

Indeed. This very thing happened to me in Birmingham and the station staff cheerfully opened the machine, released the tickets from the chute and apologised saying that it does it "all the time".

 

[Bletchleyite]

And people wonder why I refuse to use TOD unless I can collect before the day?

This is absolutely and utterly disgraceful. The railway should be sorting this, not the customer.

Time for a move to barcoded, reissueable tickets.

Neil

 

[reb0118]

Time for a move to Barcoded.

Is that anywhere near Bargoed?

 

[causton]

That is bizarre advice. In the first instance, always speak to booking office staff as soon as possible as if there is a fault with the machine they may be in a position to assist.

At the time, if the tickets do not come out at all obviously report the problem to station staff! But in the wider spectrum, we can only do so much and sort your problem out there and then; this problem needs to be fixed by speaking to people higher up and getting them to amend the design of this machine. Sorry if I confused you with the way I worded that...

 

[Greenback]

And people wonder why I refuse to use TOD unless I can collect before the day?

This is absolutely and utterly disgraceful. The railway should be sorting this, not the customer.

I agree with you, and I feel the same way about TOD. I only use it if I have plenty of time to sort out any problems before I need to travel.

I agree with those who have said it's a problem with the machine in Glasgow. The fact that Scotrail outsource the maintenance to a third party is not the customer's concern. This is an industry issue and Scotrail need to do something more to help the passenger, not just fob them off to East Coast.

 

[najaB]

I agree with you, and I feel the same way about TOD. I only use it if I have plenty of time to sort out any problems before I need to travel.

This is why I don't have much sympathy for people who "arrived two minutes before my train was due to depart..." and then get caught without a ticket.

While it would be nice if everything worked all the time, the reality is that TVM's are machines with lots of parts, and they can be subject to abuse by the elements (or by the public), so sometimes they are going to break.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is why I don't have much sympathy for people who "arrived two minutes before my train was due to depart..." and then get caught without a ticket.

Two minutes no. But you should be able to arrive no further in advance than you would if you wanted to purchase a ticket from the TVM (15 minutes is probably about what I tend to do for an IC journey, given that I mostly purchase walk-up fares from the TVM). And if the railway can't manage to deliver that, *it* needs to sort it out.

It's all very well that I live in a large town with 3 stations with ToD-capable TVMs and can collect the day before or a week before. This isn't true of everyone.

And in the end it's called "Ticket on Departure", not "Ticket 2 days before Departure". They really do need to sort it out, and the way to sort it out needs to be to give local staff the discretion to sort *all* of it out, such as by issuing complimentary tickets, and bill the cost of this to whoever causes the problem.

That might be slightly susceptible to fraud, but if the railway chooses to use systems that have no "proof of printing" built in (I never had a cash machine issue me the wrong amount, nor fail to issue but still debit) it needs to bear the risk of making that work.

All in all, a very bad show, and one that will put occasional users (who are very likely to use such a service) right off the railway.

Neil

 

[orpine]

This is why I don't have much sympathy for people who "arrived two minutes before my train was due to depart..." and then get caught without a ticket.

While it would be nice if everything worked all the time, the reality is that TVM's are machines with lots of parts, and they can be subject to abuse by the elements (or by the public), so sometimes they are going to break.

Why should I have to plan for the fact the machine may break into my itinerary? I don't build in time for my bus breaking down. Of the ATM failing to give me cash. Or any of a dozen other things that may also happen.
Especially given that most of the time it *won't* break meaning I've wasted all of that time. Other threads have covered how long is "reasonable" to turn up before the train to get your tickets (it's very nebulous), but having to add to that is just wrong.

Further thought - what happens when you don't have enough money on you to buy the new tickets if the machine fails? I rarely have that much money on me (lets be honest - walkup tickets are more likely to be stupidly expensive for something someone has pre-purchased for). Surely you can't be expected not to travel?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Further thought - what happens when you don't have enough money on you to buy the new tickets if the machine fails? I rarely have that much money on me (lets be honest - walkup tickets are more likely to be stupidly expensive for something someone has pre-purchased for). Surely you can't be expected not to travel?

That seems to be the expectation, and it is a complete disgrace. Those who have the money for an Anytime (and to risk not having it refunded) are those who are going to just buy one anyway. Those who need to book in advance to save money aren't going to be able to cough up and claim later.

Neil

 

[orpine]

I don't think even those who can afford it would necessarily have the money to hand (unless they carry a loaded debit or credit card - I never do!). I.e. say a business paid-for trip.

I've got a journey in a few weeks for about £50 with advances that walk-up would be about £350! Even though I'd downgrade to standard-class, it'd still be £240. And that's just outward. You're also left with the dilema - do I buy the return portion now or do I faf around at my destination for who knows how long and hope they'll relent? If they don't? Another £240.
I almost never carry even £100 with me, let alone that sort of money!

 

[radamfi]

Not only do I never pick up tickets on the day of travel, I don't travel at all unless I can pick up the tickets on the day before or previously. So I don't do spontaneous trips in the UK unless I can use a smartcard, contactless bank card or self print ticket.

In Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany you can print all or nearly all tickets at home.

In Belgium you can buy 10 tickets for 76 euros which you can validate when you get on the train simply by writing the origin and destination.

In the Netherlands of course you have the OV-Chipkaart smartcard valid nationwide.

In Germany and Switzerland you can buy all or nearly all tickets on your smartphone and not have to collect the ticket.

So the UK is now unusual in western Europe in needing to visit a ticket machine or ticket office for walk up tickets.

 

[najaB]

But you should be able to arrive no further in advance than you would if you wanted to purchase a ticket from the TVM (15 minutes is probably about what I tend to do for an IC journey, given that I mostly purchase walk-up fares from the TVM). And if the railway can't manage to deliver that, *it* needs to sort it out.

And that's a perfectly reasonable amount of time to leave. It would give you enough time to find someone who can help and still have a good chance of getting your booked train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why should I have to plan for the fact the machine may break into my itinerary? I don't build in time for my bus breaking down. Of the ATM failing to give me cash. Or any of a dozen other things that may also happen.

I think that for journeys that you *have* to make, you should build in some "s**t happens" time. The only train I missed last year was because I tried to cut it close and a bunch of little things added up to mean that I saw the train pulling away from the platform as I came down the stairs.

 

[radamfi]

And that's a perfectly reasonable amount of time to leave. It would give you enough time to find someone who can help and still have a good chance of getting your booked train.

There is no concept of 'reasonable' on the railway. You are treated the same whether you couldn't pick up the tickets 2 or 15 minutes before departure time. If the station is unstaffed it doesn't matter whether it is several days before departure if there is a printing problem. So I will only collect tickets during ticket office opening hours. There should be no need to pick up advance purchase tickets from a machine, full stop.

 

[najaB]

There should be no need to pick up advance purchase tickets from a machine, full stop.

(Un)Fortunately, increasingly the TOCs are moving to using mobile or print a home tickets.

 

[radamfi]

(Un)Fortunately

Why might this be a bad thing?

 

[najaB]

Why might this be a bad thing?

There have been discussions in the past of the pros and cons of mobile and print-at-home tickets. Forum members have strongly held views on both sides of the argument.

 

[radamfi]

There have been discussions in the past of the pros and cons of mobile and print-at-home tickets. Forum members have strongly held views on both sides of the argument.

I can't see many passengers objecting to being able to use mobile or self print tickets, especially if postal delivery is still available. I'm guessing the objections are mostly from the industry (fear of increased fraud), ticket office staff (potential job losses) and guards (loss of commission). In Germany self print was so successful they decided to stop machine collection. In the Netherlands and Belgium I don't think they have ever used machine collection.

 

[Hadders]

Interestingly I came across this on Virgin Trains website earlier. I assume all TOC's are bound by the same agreement, whatever that is.

http://trainsupport.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1747

As part of the agreement to provide Self Service tickets the station is responsible to assist with the collection if a customer is unable to collect their tickets from a machine.