Time for the Atherton line to connect to Piccadilly?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let us put all matters of Greater Scouseland out of our minds and concentrate on the Atherton line, that being the subject of this thread.

 

[yorksrob]

Croydon Tramlink does, and that took over lines which were at least comparable with the Atherton line.

Remembering that conversion to Metrolink does not sever the heavy rail connection between Southport and Manchester.

Those lines had two carriage shuttles throughout the day. Addiscombe (as much as I miss it) didn't get many passengers.

The Atherton line is in no way compatible.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If my memory is not playing me false, on the Atherton line, there is quite a long tunnel somewhere between Pendleton and Swinton and I wonder if there would be any problems encountered if any light-rail system also used it. I have not used that line for many a year. If I want to visit Atherton from central Manchester or from Salford Crescent railway station, I would use the V2 guided busway service, which is quite quick from that railway station thanks to dedicated bus lanes.

 

[yorksrob]

If I want to visit Atherton from central Manchester or from Salford Crescent railway station, I would use the V2 guided busway service, which is quite quick from that railway station thanks to dedicated bus lanes.

That would be more suitable for tram conversion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be more suitable for tram conversion.

That certainly should be tram-converted (should have been one to start with) but it doesn't make the Atherton Line any less so. Long term the ex-rail bits of Metrolink should be put underground in the city centre as per Den Haag or several German cities.

 

[yorksrob]

That certainly should be tram-converted (should have been one to start with) but it doesn't make the Atherton Line any less so. Long term the ex-rail bits of Metrolink should be put underground in the city centre as per Den Haag or several German cities.

Yes it does, because its already performing the function in the are that a tram line would otherwise be doing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That certainly should be tram-converted (should have been one to start with) but it doesn't make the Atherton Line any less so. Long term the ex-rail bits of Metrolink should be put underground in the city centre as per Den Haag or several German cities.

When tram conversion is mentioned, will that be all the way into the existing V1 terminus at Leigh bus station. Has there been any budgetry figure been published that will give the total cost of the works and the time this conversion project will take? What changes, if any, wlll have to be made to the concrete base sections on the guided busway from Ellenbrook to its current end in Leigh?

Don't forget which organisation it was who took the final decision to go ahead with the guided busway in the full knowledge of the costs involved.

 

[Topological]

Those lines had two carriage shuttles throughout the day. Addiscombe (as much as I miss it) didn't get many passengers.

The Atherton line is in no way compatible.

Sorry, in what way? Have they lengthened the 2 carriage shuttles?

Note again that no one is saying the Southport to Manchester (which operates via Bolton) needs to change.

IF Northern have lengthened the trains that stop at all stations then that is good news. But, a regular tram would still be better than an occasional train.

 

[geordieblue]

As always when this comes up - in Tyne and Wear people in Heworth have a Choice for getting to Newcastle (or Sunderland). They have the choice of a once-an-hour direct heavy rail Northern train - with no intermediate stops in either direction, and on board toilets - or they can take the T&W Metro, which runs around 10tph with far more stops, and has no toilets. Heworth heavy rail usage is a shade under 30,000 per year and its Metro usage is around 1 million. Not much of a contest?

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry, in what way? Have they lengthened the 2 carriage shuttles?

Note again that no one is saying the Southport to Manchester (which operates via Bolton) needs to change.

IF Northern have lengthened the trains that stop at all stations then that is good news. But, a regular tram would still be better than an occasional train.

No, Addiscombe and the Mitcham Junction line had two carriage shuttles.

Atherton has half hourly or more well used three and four carriage services.

And we heard you the first time about Southport.

As always when this comes up - in Tyne and Wear people in Heworth have a Choice for getting to Newcastle (or Sunderland). They have the choice of a once-an-hour direct heavy rail Northern train - with no intermediate stops in either direction, and on board toilets - or they can take the T&W Metro, which runs around 10tph with far more stops, and has no toilets. Heworth heavy rail usage is a shade under 30,000 per year and its Metro usage is around 1 million. Not much of a contest?

The Atherton line isn't once every hour.

The area already has the budget metro solution of the guided busway. Why does it need two ? Has the busway not achieved what it was supposed to achieve ?

 

[geordieblue]

The Atherton line isn't once every hour.

The area already has the budget metro solution of the guided busway. Why does it train solution need two ? Has the busway not achieved what it was supposed to achieve ?

The point is that normal passengers - that is, not train fanatics - are willing to trade long-distance connectivity and toilet provision for short-distance simplicity and frequency.

IMO the ideal situation for Atherton would be a tram-train solution into a central Manchester tunnel - hardly a ‘budget solution’ as you inaccurately claim - which would a) provide better access to the places people want to go to, b) improve frequency, c) reduce generalised journey time, d) could be used as a justification for electrification (let’s be honest, that’s unlikely to happen if taken forward as heavy rail), and e) could even allow a legacy Southport/Kirkby service to Manchester (which could skip less important stops and provide an express service).

However presumably you will oppose this, for: reasons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Southport services can run via Bolton using Northern's planned new bi-mode units. There's no need for them to run via Atherton.

 

[geordieblue]

The Southport services can run via Bolton using Northern's planned new bi-mode units. There's no need for them to run via Atherton.

I’m well aware - I’m trying to persuade @yorksrob that maybe running some trams on one of his pet lines might not lead to the sky falling in, and so have assumed that the long distance service wouldn’t have to change (although I agree that it’d be better for it to run via Bolton).

 

[Topological]

No, Addiscombe and the Mitcham Junction line had two carriage shuttles.

Atherton has half hourly or more well used three and four carriage services.

And we heard you the first time about Southport.



The Atherton line isn't once every hour.

The area already has the budget metro solution of the guided busway. Why does it need two ? Has the busway not achieved what it was supposed to achieve ?

I stand corrected: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...24-09-26/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt (Today's service from Swinton to Salford Crescent showing a mix of 2/3/4 and cancelled)

However, it does not change anything. These services are Wigan Wallgate to Manchester Victoria/Leeds and Headbolt Lane to Blackburn via Rochdale. They are really just making sure that nothing terminates at Victoria.

IF demand on the section that would become Metrolink justifies 4 carriages every half an hour then the Metrolink service is also likely to be double trams and more of them. Again Wigan to Manchester would be served via Bolton.

How many carriages per hour were the trains that became Tramlink? Just for those who think a comparison with London is needed.

The Southport services can run via Bolton using Northern's planned new bi-mode units. There's no need for them to run via Atherton.

Can and do. The Atherton line only has Wigan Wallgate or Headbolt Lane services from the West.

 

[yorksrob]

The point is that normal passengers - that is, not train fanatics - are willing to trade long-distance connectivity and toilet provision for short-distance simplicity and frequency.

IMO the ideal situation for Atherton would be a tram-train solution into a central Manchester tunnel - hardly a ‘budget solution’ as you inaccurately claim - which would a) provide better access to the places people want to go to, b) improve frequency, c) reduce generalised journey time, d) could be used as a justification for electrification (let’s be honest, that’s unlikely to happen if taken forward as heavy rail), and e) could even allow a legacy Southport/Kirkby service to Manchester (which could skip less important stops and provide an express service).

However presumably you will oppose this, for: reasons.

If we ever get a central tunnel, that might be a good solution for heavy rail, however what's the point if you end up trundling around the streets of Hindley ? I'd say standard electrification is more likely than tunneling through central Manchester, but who knows.

And I ask again, if people are so enamoured with more frequent, slower metro type services, why hasn't the guided busway been more popular ? By your argument, that should have emptied the Atherton line years ago.

And you also fail to adress that a decent, interval electric train service can also be transformative, as with London Overground, but the tram fans never seem to mention this.

I stand corrected: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...24-09-26/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt (Today's service from Swinton to Salford Crescent showing a mix of 2/3/4 and cancelled)

However, it does not change anything. These services are Wigan Wallgate to Manchester Victoria/Leeds and Headbolt Lane to Blackburn via Rochdale. They are really just making sure that nothing terminates at Victoria.

IF demand on the section that would become Metrolink justifies 4 carriages every half an hour then the Metrolink service is also likely to be double trams and more of them. Again Wigan to Manchester would be served via Bolton.

How many carriages per hour were the trains that became Tramlink? Just for those who think a comparison with London is needed.


Can and do. The Atherton line only has Wigan Wallgate or Headbolt Lane services from the West.

Why not just run your trams down the busway where they should have been in the first place, that way the area gets both a fast, regional and a slower metro type service. Everyone's a winner.

 

[geordieblue]

If we ever get a central tunnel, that might be a good solution for heavy rail, however what's the point if you end up trundling around the streets of Hindley ? I'd say standard electrification is more likely than tunneling through central Manchester, but who knows.

And I ask again, if people are so enamoured with more frequent, slower metro type services, why hasn't the guided busway been more popular ? By your argument, that should have emptied the Atherton line years ago.

And you also fail to adress that a decent, interval electric train service can also be transformative, as with London Overground, but the tram fans never seem to mention this.

1) Who said anything about trundling through Hindley? Bit of a straw man there.

2) you regularly mention how poor buses are, so it seems a bit rich to suddenly extol their virtues when it suits your argument. Buses are good - and there are places where they are the best solution - but in an urban area they are not ideal for shifting large numbers of people.

3) I agree a good heavy rail service would be pretty much just as good (the one downside being city centre penetration - in Oldham and Rochdale trams have enabled major improvements in access to footfall for example). However - again - you yourself criticised the Overground up thread for having no toilets and not allowing drinking on board! (Which are features shared by most S Bahn systems, even in Germany). You also fail to acknowledge that a system like the T&W Metro is in principle just as good if not better than the Overground - you seem to oppose it on principle - why is that?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the Atherton line is still classified as a heavy-rail replacement line when the Bolton line is not functioning, would the conversion of the Atherton line to a tramway be a cause of some concern in rail operating centres? Has anything official ever been said about such a matter or is it only ever something said on social internet websites?

You regularly mention how poor buses are, so it seems a bit rich to suddenly extol their virtues when it suits your argument. Buses are good - and there are places where they are the best solution - but in an urban area they are not ideal for shifting large numbers of people.

Now that the area in question was in the first tranche of the Bee Network franchise agreements and Mayor Andy Burnham stressing how much bus travel would improve under this new arrangement, is it now not living up to expectations

 

[Topological]

1) Who said anything about trundling through Hindley? Bit of a straw man there.

2) you regularly mention how poor buses are, so it seems a bit rich to suddenly extol their virtues when it suits your argument. Buses are good - and there are places where they are the best solution - but in an urban area they are not ideal for shifting large numbers of people.

3) I agree a good heavy rail service would be pretty much just as good (the one downside being city centre penetration - in Oldham and Rochdale trams have enabled major improvements in access to footfall for example). However - again - you yourself criticised the Overground up thread for having no toilets and not allowing drinking on board! (Which are features shared by most S Bahn systems, even in Germany). You also fail to acknowledge that a system like the T&W Metro is in principle just as good if not better than the Overground - you seem to oppose it on principle - why is that?

For me it is the Oldham example that shows how conversion to Metrolink can make a huge difference. Metrolink will presumably serve Salford better than the current rail route does. This creates more journeys that cannot be made presently by rail-based transport means.

Buses are fine, but the busway had design faults because it relies on traffic between Salford and Manchester City Centre. Where Metrolink is used it is much easier to create priority.

It would be interesting to see how TfGM eventually decide to terminate the Metrolink. A route into Wigan must be tempting, but termination at an interchange with Bolton - Wigan trains is cheaper. Maybe there will be "trundling through Hindley", but that would not affect passengers going into Manchester from most parts of the Atherton line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It would be interesting to see how TfGM eventually decide to terminate the Metrolink. A route into Wigan must be tempting, but termination at an interchange with Bolton - Wigan trains is cheaper. Maybe there will be "trundling through Hindley", but that would not affect passengers going into Manchester from most parts of the Atherton line.

After the last promised finance input from the previous Government to Transport for Greater Manchester that will now have been earmarked for existing planned-for public transport improvements, future Metrolink expansion will already have been considered, but noting what the new Chancellor has said about the deficit inherited and the Prime Minister also warning of "oncoming pain" during this current Partliament, "hand-out freebies" for major tramway projects will be well down the Government's priorities league table.

 

[Topological]

After the last promised finance input from the previous Government to Transport for Greater Manchester that will now have been earmarked for existing planned-for public transport improvements, future Metrolink expansion will already have been considered, but noting what the new Chancellor has said about the deficit inherited and the Prime Minister also warning of "oncoming pain" during this current Partliament, "hand-out freebies" for major tramway projects will be well down the Government's priorities league table.

You may be right, though I am always optimistic for Manchester.

Whilst Manchester was one of George Osborne's pet investments, subsequent chancellors have recognised the potential of the city region to generate GDP (which of course the Chancellor will ultimately be judged by). Manchester is somewhat blessed with its local conditions, accessibility and the momentum that has built in the past two decades. I am biased, but the university is good too.

I suspect that money would exist should Manchester want it for spreading the wealth out into suburbs like those on the Atherton line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You may be right, though I am always optimistic for Manchester.

Whilst Manchester was one of George Osborne's pet investments, subsequent chancellors have recognised the potential of the city region to generate GDP (which of course the Chancellor will ultimately be judged by). Manchester is somewhat blessed with its local conditions, accessibility and the momentum that has built in the past two decades. I am biased, but the university is good too.

I suspect that money would exist should Manchester want it for spreading the wealth out into suburbs like those on the Atherton line.

The money that I referred to as being targetted at Greater Manchester was far later given than the days of George Osborne and agreed only in the last couple of years of the previous Government.

Everyone will now have to realise that what went on before will have no place in the mind of the new Chancellor, despite your seemingly optimistic forecast for a repeat financial handout for transport projects for Greater Manchester.. Let us wait and see what will be revealed at the end of October when the next Budget is announced.

 

[Topological]

The money that I referred to as being targetted at Greater Manchester was far later given than the days of George Osborne and agreed only in the last couple of years of the previous Government.

Everyone will now have to realise that what went on before will have no place in the mind of the new Chancellor, despite your seemingly optimistic forecast for a repeat financial handout for transport projects for Greater Manchester.. Let us wait and see what will be revealed at the end of October when the next Budget is announced.

My reading is that the budget will pave the way for differential treatment of strategic investment from other uses of government money. Investment in projects to spread wealth in Manchester would then feature quite high in the strategic rankings.

I doubt there will be anything in the budget that allows for conclusion either way.

The question for Greater Manchester is really about how it intends to ensure the prosperity moves beyond the city centre and the Didsbury corridor. Oldham is showing what can be done. The Ashton corridor also provides some indication, but that is street running.

It would seem remiss for the Atherton line to miss out in the name of preserving a diesel railcar service every half an hour (which is what the Oldham Loop Line had).

 

[yorksrob]

1) Who said anything about trundling through Hindley? Bit of a straw man there.

2) you regularly mention how poor buses are, so it seems a bit rich to suddenly extol their virtues when it suits your argument. Buses are good - and there are places where they are the best solution - but in an urban area they are not ideal for shifting large numbers of people.

3) I agree a good heavy rail service would be pretty much just as good (the one downside being city centre penetration - in Oldham and Rochdale trams have enabled major improvements in access to footfall for example). However - again - you yourself criticised the Overground up thread for having no toilets and not allowing drinking on board! (Which are features shared by most S Bahn systems, even in Germany). You also fail to acknowledge that a system like the T&W Metro is in principle just as good if not better than the Overground - you seem to oppose it on principle - why is that?

Hindley was mentioned upthread, along with on-road running in general.

In my post I'm not extolling the virtue of bus services (although that's not unknown - where bus services are provided for appropriate transport flows) but pointed out that the guided busway was provided as a cheaper version of metro travel, but it doesn't seem to attract the same level of usage.

This is why I suggest converting it to tram, so that we can have both local metro and longer distance regional rail (the Atherton line) on the corridor.

A system like Tyne and Wear Metro has its benefits, as does Merseyrail. Both of these avoid trundling around the streets, however they both have drawbacks in terms of longer distance travel.

I'd say that an electrified Atherton line would be far more similar to LO, T&W metro and Merseyrail than a street running tram system.

My reading is that the budget will pave the way for differential treatment of strategic investment from other uses of government money. Investment in projects to spread wealth in Manchester would then feature quite high in the strategic rankings.

I doubt there will be anything in the budget that allows for conclusion either way.

The question for Greater Manchester is really about how it intends to ensure the prosperity moves beyond the city centre and the Didsbury corridor. Oldham is showing what can be done. The Ashton corridor also provides some indication, but that is street running.

It would seem remiss for the Atherton line to miss out in the name of preserving a diesel railcar service every half an hour (which is what the Oldham Loop Line had).

A large proportion of the Oldham loop had a quarter hourly service.

A twenty minute interval electric service on the Atherton line would be ideal for the prosperity of the Atherton coridor.

 

[Topological]

Hindley was mentioned upthread, along with on-road running in general.

In my post I'm not extolling the virtue of bus services (although that's not unknown - where bus services are provided for appropriate transport flows) but pointed out that the guided busway was provided as a cheaper version of metro travel, but it doesn't seem to attract the same level of usage.

This is why I suggest converting it to tram, so that we can have both local metro and longer distance regional rail (the Atherton line) on the corridor.

A system like Tyne and Wear Metro has its benefits, as does Merseyrail. Both of these avoid trundling around the streets, however they both have drawbacks in terms of longer distance travel.

I'd say that an electrified Atherton line would be far more similar to LO, T&W metro and Merseyrail than a street running tram system.



A large proportion of the Oldham loop had a quarter hourly service.

A twenty minute interval electric service on the Atherton line would be ideal for the prosperity of the Atherton coridor.

My memory is not what it should be then, my apologies. I can indeed see that as well as the half-hourly stopping service there were also half-hourly trains which ran fast from Oldham Mumps to Victoria

Using the information on Disused Stations: http://disused-stations.org.uk/o/oldham_mumps/index.shtml

In May 1995 the last alteration was made to the train services that called at Oldham Mumps. From this date, Mumps was served by a half-hourly train in each direction between Manchester Victora and Shaw & Crompton, and a half-hour frequency service between Manchester Victoria and Rochdale which ran as an express service between Mumps and Victoria.

However, that would mean that the Oldham Loop line was more intensively used than Atherton (which only has the half-hourly stopper). Atherton is then a more, rather than less, suitable candidate for conversion.

 

[yorksrob]

My memory is not what it should be then, my apologies. I can indeed see that as well as the half-hourly stopping service there were also half-hourly trains which ran fast from Oldham Mumps to Victoria

Using the information on Disused Stations: http://disused-stations.org.uk/o/oldham_mumps/index.shtml



However, that would mean that the Oldham Loop line was more intensively used than Atherton (which only has the half-hourly stopper). Atherton is then a more, rather than less, suitable candidate for conversion.

There are other factors as well. The Atherton line is longer distance than the Oldham loop and I would say better integrated with the regional network.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

After all the wonderful Metrolink postings about converting the Atherton line to Metrolink, I wonder if anyone has realised that the OP on this thread was about a speculative suggestion of bringing the heavy-rail Southport service via Atherton railway station to Manchester Piccadilly railway station via Castlefield. Based on that, can we all go back to discussing that particular matter, please.

 

[yorksrob]

After all the wonderful Metrolink postings about converting the Atherton line to Metrolink, I wonder if anyone has realised that the OP on this thread was about a speculative suggestion of bringing the heavy-rail Southport service via Atherton railway station to Manchester Piccadilly railway station via Castlefield. Based on that, can we all go back to discussing that particular matter, please.

Yes, I would like to see a twenty minute interval service. Two to Vic, one to the airport. Gives frequency and an hourly connection to the South.

 

[Chester1]

When tram conversion is mentioned, will that be all the way into the existing V1 terminus at Leigh bus station. Has there been any budgetry figure been published that will give the total cost of the works and the time this conversion project will take? What changes, if any, wlll have to be made to the concrete base sections on the guided busway from Ellenbrook to its current end in Leigh?

Don't forget which organisation it was who took the final decision to go ahead with the guided busway in the full knowledge of the costs involved.

If I remember correctly the cost of a tram line to Leigh and branch off to Atherton was estimated at nearly half a billion and the guided bus way about £60 million. That was over 10 years ago and when there was still spare capacity on Metrolink in the city centre. I doubt TfGM would get any change from a billion pounds for converting the guided bus way to Metrolink and running to either Victoria or Piccadilly. It's not going to happen. The budget metro option was chosen for good reason.

 

[yorksrob]

If I remember correctly the cost of a tram line to Leigh and branch off to Atherton was estimated at nearly half a billion and the guided bus way about £60 million. That was over 10 years ago and when there was still spare capacity on Metrolink in the city centre. I doubt TfGM would get any change from a billion pounds for converting the guided bus way to Metrolink and running to either Victoria or Piccadilly. It's not going to happen. The budget metro option was chosen for good reason.

So how have they got millions to convert the main line ?

 

[507020]

So how have they got millions to convert the main line ?

With the revenue generated by the guided busway