Time for the Atherton line to connect to Piccadilly?

[Philip]

The Southport line community group have been vocal about their unhappiness of the loss of a direct service to Manchester Piccadilly, but should the bigger priority be a direct service to Piccadilly from the Atherton line stations? I don't think there has ever been a regular service from Atherton to Piccadilly via Castlefield, and the change at Salford Crescent if heading south has always been awkward and at times unpleasant. Salford Crescent itself has seen a 4tph Piccadilly service from the 2000s reduced by half to 2tph.

Southport line passengers have good options to travel south in the form of Liverpool & Wigan NW and most of their stations are not even within Greater Manchester, whereas the Atherton line is fully within and the eastern end within the actual suburbs. Should the Southport-Oxford Rd divert to Victoria, to allow a path through Castlefield for a Wigan-Atherton-Piccadilly-Airport service?

 

[Topological]

Really, the Atherton line is an obvious candidate for Metrolink (either train or tram-train if diversion capacity needs to be maintained). In that way there would be far better connections into Manchester and a much higher frequency. The tram-trains would probably connect with the Glossop or Marple lines to the East giving a link through Piccadilly.

The idea that every place in the Western half of Greater Manchester gets a train through Castlefield is something of a non-starter capacity wise. In some ways life was better pre Windsor Link in that regard.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The idea that every place in the Western half of Greater Manchester gets a train through Castlefield is something of a non-starter capacity wise. In some ways life was better pre Windsor Link in that regard.

Yes. I remember the Windsor Link getting built and I was delighted because the railway was growing- same with Manchester Airport Line. Then came the Ordsall Chord- all great in themselves but create horrendous capacity problems elsewhere. I wish I knew the answer.

 

[Topological]

Yes. I remember the Windsor Link getting built and I was delighted because the railway was growing- same with Manchester Airport Line. Then came the Ordsall Chord- all great in themselves but create horrendous capacity problems elsewhere. I wish I knew the answer.

High speed line chord from the Liverpool - Manchester via the airport, that can have a chord onto the WCML and will presumably not cost too much time relative to Wigan to Piccadilly via Chat Moss (and gives gains to the airport)

IF HS2 are not planning on using the infrastructure then there should be space for more services than are needed for Liverppol<->Manchester alone.

Warrington Central then gets metroised along with Atherton and then probably there is enough capacity on Castlefield for Wigan/Southport via Bolton, Blackpool/Lakes via Bolton, the Chat Moss stopper and a few trains to use the Ordsall Chord.

We have drifted well away from the topic, but the Atherton line itself seems to stand to benefit a lot more from options that increase frequency (such as Metrolink) rather than trying to be tied into Castlefield heavy rail.

 

[Philip]

The main aim is for better connectivity for Atherton line stations, which a service to Piccadilly offers. Victoria doesn't offer particularly good connectivity; it's main advantage is that it is close to the nicer end of the city centre.

Converting to Metrolink would mean slower journey times into the city centre and would make connectivity even worse. Clifton on the Bolton/Preston route would require at least an hourly service to compensate for the loss of heavy rail through Swinton, Moorside & Walkden.

 

[yorksrob]

Better to electrify the Atherton line and introduce a three or four train an hour frequency, rather than have a slow, meandering tram line. Infact electrify Calder valley as well and run a cross city service to Yorkshire.

 

[Topological]

Better to electrify the Atherton line and introduce a three or four train an hour frequency, rather than have a slow, meandering tram line. Infact electrify Calder valley as well and run a cross city service to Yorkshire.

Why is a tram line "meandering" if it uses the same track as the trains currently do?

Yes, a tram is slower. However, the tram runs every 6 minutes (or 12 minutes) and therefore would beat the train for people who were looking to travel at times that the train currently does not run. That would be the very definition of improving connectivity.

Electrifying is going to cost more and be constrained by exactly the issues that currently constrain the service. Through running to Yorkshire will mean Victoria and hence not deliver the Piccadilly connection either

The main aim is for better connectivity for Atherton line stations, which a service to Piccadilly offers. Victoria doesn't offer particularly good connectivity; it's main advantage is that it is close to the nicer end of the city centre.

Converting to Metrolink would mean slower journey times into the city centre and would make connectivity even worse. Clifton on the Bolton/Preston route would require at least an hourly service to compensate for the loss of heavy rail through Swinton, Moorside & Walkden.

Why would Swinton need more trains? Surely people will take the tram to Salford Crescent and/or all the way to Piccadilly.

 

[Philip]

Why would Swinton need more trains? Surely people will take the tram to Salford Crescent and/or all the way to Piccadilly.

Because the tram is an inferior transport service compared with the train, with slower journey times, potential for hold-ups when running at street level, further to walk at the rail interchanges, less comfy interior with no toilets. The Metrolink is a pet project of the Manchester mayor, not really an adequate replacement for a heavy rail service.

 

[The Planner]

Because the tram is an inferior transport service compared with the train, with slower journey times, potential for hold-ups when running at street level, further to walk at the rail interchanges, less comfy interior with no toilets. The Metrolink is a pet project of the Manchester mayor, not really an adequate replacement for a heavy rail service.

But @Topological makes a good point over generalised journey time. Atherton gets 2tph, a tram could deliver 10 if really desired, so the generalised journey is shorter. Atherton to Vic is a 25 minute journey for 11 miles, so an average of 26mph. The generalised journey time is a maximum of 54 minutes (25 + 29 for waiting for a train). A higher frequency gets that time down. An improved train service could do that, but only to an extent. How much slower would a tram be in your mind for a comparison?

 

[Philip]

But @Topological makes a good point over generalised journey time. Atherton gets 2tph, a tram could deliver 10 if really desired, so the generalised journey is shorter. Atherton to Vic is a 25 minute journey for 11 miles, so an average of 26mph. The generalised journey time is a maximum of 54 minutes (25 + 29 for waiting for a train). A higher frequency gets that time down. An improved train service could do that, but only to an extent. How much slower would a tram be in your mind for a comparison?

How fast can Manchester trams go? If it's 40mph then realistically Atherton to the centre of Manchester would take at least 45 minutes, allowing for delays and slower speeds once it goes to street level around Chapel Street. The Atherton line could also be upgraded to 70mph with improved signalling to deliver the 4tph frequency which was promised in 2018, bringing a 25 minute journey time from Atherton down to 15-20.

 

[HSTEd]

Because the tram is an inferior transport service compared with the train, with slower journey times, potential for hold-ups when running at street level, further to walk at the rail interchanges, less comfy interior with no toilets. The Metrolink is a pet project of the Manchester mayor, not really an adequate replacement for a heavy rail service.

Five or ten tarms per hour tends to beat two or even four trains, even if it is a few minutes slower.
As american transit experts like to say 'frequency is freedom'.

As to the tram being slower, the National Electronic Sectional Appendix shows line speed on the Atherton line doesn't even get above the ~50mph top speed of Metrolink trams up the merger with the line via Westhoughton.

By then you are within a few minutes of Wigan either way.
You could probably run the tram beside the railway for quite a long distance beyond Hindley and get pretty close to Wigan before you have to find a new tram alignment, assuming the railway via Bolton is sacrosanct.
Terminating the tram at Hindley would avoid even that annoyance.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Yes, a tram is slower.

As above, no it wouldn't be since the line doesn't go above 50mph, in fact, acceleration would probably be better compared to 150s we currently have.
I'd much rather have 4tph (compared to 2 currently) even if my journeys took a few minutes more.

 

[Topological]

As above, no it wouldn't be since the line doesn't go above 50mph, in fact, acceleration would probably be better compared to 150s we currently have.
I'd much rather have 4tph (compared to 2 currently) even if my journeys took a few minutes more.

Hence the part you quoted being part of a longer paragraph on the advantages of a higher frequency.

I do assume that the part where the tram gets from Salford Crescent* (Various plans exist for a route into Manchester from there) and Piccadilly would take longer than a train going via Castlefield.

All of this ignores the fact that the tram serving St Peters Square* or similar might actually make a huge difference to the destinations of people currently walking after leaving the train at Salford Central / Deansgate/ Oxford Road etc.

To me the extra journey time would be more than compensated by the higher frequency of services as you say.

 

[yorksrob]

Why is a tram line "meandering" if it uses the same track as the trains currently do?

Yes, a tram is slower. However, the tram runs every 6 minutes (or 12 minutes) and therefore would beat the train for people who were looking to travel at times that the train currently does not run. That would be the very definition of improving connectivity.

Electrifying is going to cost more and be constrained by exactly the issues that currently constrain the service. Through running to Yorkshire will mean Victoria and hence not deliver the Piccadilly connection either



Why would Swinton need more trains? Surely people will take the tram to Salford Crescent and/or all the way to Piccadilly.

The Oldham loop doesn't use the same route.

It's a trade off. Either you have the convenience of stopping everywhere, in which case you have a slow journey like an urban bus, or you stop at key railheads in order to have a quicker longer distance journey, like a regional rail route. The Atherton line should fulfill its fast regional role, rather than trying to be all things to all people.

 

[Topological]

The Oldham loop doesn't use the same route.

It's a trade off. Either you have the convenience of stopping everywhere, in which case you have a slow journey like an urban bus, or you stop at key railheads in order to have a quicker longer distance journey, like a regional rail route. The Atherton line should fulfill its fast regional role, rather than trying to be all things to all people.

The Oldham Loop briefly used the old route but then moved to go through Oldham Town Centre because that was better for more people. A sensible rationale.

In the case of the Atherton line I struggle to see a regional role, Southport trains can reach Manchester via Bolton (and indeed some do).

I assume you would also put Altricham to Deansgate back as heavy rail? Because the parallels seem quite strong and that is doing quite well as a segregated tram route by most counts.

If someone has ridership numbers for Shaw then that would give a good indication of whether the tram is worse than the train. Shaw passengers need to go through Oldham Town Centre, or would need to travel via Rochdale for heavy rail to Manchester. I suspect plenty go the Oldham way.

 

[yorksrob]

The Oldham Loop briefly used the old route but then moved to go through Oldham Town Centre because that was better for more people. A sensible rationale.

In the case of the Atherton line I struggle to see a regional role, Southport trains can reach Manchester via Bolton (and indeed some do).

I assume you would also put Altricham to Deansgate back as heavy rail? Because the parallels seem quite strong and that is doing quite well as a segregated tram route by most counts.

If someone has ridership numbers for Shaw then that would give a good indication of whether the tram is worse than the train. Shaw passengers need to go through Oldham Town Centre, or would need to travel via Rochdale for heavy rail to Manchester. I suspect plenty go the Oldham way.

The Atherton line provides direct regional services between a whole swathe of Greater Manchester with Southport and West Yorkshire. I've used them in both directions.

 

[Topological]

The Atherton line provides direct regional services between a whole swathe of Greater Manchester with Southport and West Yorkshire. I've used them in both directions.

So the objection is that there would be no service between stations on the Atherton line and either Southport or West Yorkshire? Is that a big market?

Connections from the tram at either the Wigan* or Manchester* ends would be straightforward and, by combining the frequency with the via Bolton trains, would actually offer much better journey times for those who do genuinely want to travel from Swinton to Southport, or Walkden to Leeds.

* used here since the connections may not actually be at Wigan or Manchester, depending on the design of the tram route.

 

[yorksrob]

So the objection is that there would be no service between stations on the Atherton line and either Southport or West Yorkshire? Is that a big market?

Connections from the tram at either the Wigan* or Manchester* ends would be straightforward and, by combining the frequency with the via Bolton trains, would actually offer much better journey times for those who do genuinely want to travel from Swinton to Southport, or Walkden to Leeds.

* used here since the connections may not actually be at Wigan or Manchester, depending on the design of the tram route.

Or if you want a frequent, local service, why not just use the guided busway that's already been provided in the area, and leave the railway to us rail passengers ?

 

[Topological]

You are right that it could be a guided busway, but the current one has enough issues getting into Manchester City Centre. Trams seem a better solution for the Atherton line.

I do not know why this has become about me though, it is TfGM who want to provide a higher frequency solution for the Atherton line:

Link: https://confidentials.com/manchester/what-will-metrolink-look-like-in-2040

LAST month, Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) and the Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) published their 2040 vision for housing, planning, public services and transport in Greater Manchester.

Key to this vision was recognition of the role that the city’s Metrolink tram network has played in regenerating vast areas of the city, whilst creating a more robust and cohesive urban region.

TfGM and the GMCA want to build on this success by more than doubling the network from its present-day size, reaching more GM boroughs, communities and regeneration opportunities.

TfGM also plan to convert the Wigan via Atherton and Warrington via Urmston lines to Metrolink, with a new tram line proposed down Chapel Street and into St Peter’s Square, probably via Quay Street.

This kind of investment would undoubtedly stir up property development in Salford and Trafford even more and spread the city centre further west. A new link between Salford Crescent and MediaCity is planned, as well as new rail stations at Little Hulton and Dobb Brow near Westhoughton.

There have been countless threads on here too about Atherton.

 

[yorksrob]

You are right that it could be a guided busway, but the current one has enough issues getting into Manchester City Centre. Trams seem a better solution for the Atherton line.

I do not know why this has become about me though, it is TfGM who want to provide a higher frequency solution for the Atherton line:

Link: https://confidentials.com/manchester/what-will-metrolink-look-like-in-2040





There have been countless threads on here too about Atherton.

TFGM are barking up the wrong tree.

If the guided bus link gets snarled up in city centre traffic, doesn't that rather illustrate the problem with on-street running ?

 

[HSTEd]

TFGM are barking up the wrong tree.

If the guided bus link gets snarled up in city centre traffic, doesn't that rather illustrate the problem with on-street running ?

But Metrolink doesn't really have that much on street running, certainly not compared to buses which are just dumped directly onto largely unmodified city streets.

Meanwhile, there are fundamental limits in station capacity in central Manchester that will not be easily overcome.

I'm not particularly sold on a "regional role" for the Atherton line given that is probably least effective of the three routes from Manchester to Wigan.
I don't see it having much if any advantage over either the route via Bolton or the route via Eccles, with the latter being the fastest of the three.

 

[Topological]

TFGM are barking up the wrong tree.

If the guided bus link gets snarled up in city centre traffic, doesn't that rather illustrate the problem with on-street running ?

Using Metrolink offers a connection at Salford Crescent if the on street route is particularly bad.

I think there is more appetite for segregated Metrolink tracks than there is for bus lanes. It will be down to the precise design of the route once it reaches the end of Salford Crescent. The Crescent itself is wide enough to create separated tram lines given it used to be up to 3 lanes wide in each direction.

The section on the Atherton line would be higher frequency and, thanks to the experts on here, be only marginally slower than the train (acceleration may actually give trams an advantage).

As @HSTEd notes, the heavy rail element is really only about direct services from the stations on the Atherton line to destinations beyond Wigan and beyond Manchester. Other routes provide the connection between Wigan and Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's fair to say that aside from Manchester Airport the through Northern services across Manchester are as they are primarily for operational convenience, and very few people travel across Manchester on them.

 

[Philip]

I think it's fair to say that aside from Manchester Airport the through Northern services across Manchester are as they are primarily for operational convenience, and very few people travel across Manchester on them.

A sizeable number of people travel between Stockport and Salford/Bolton.

 

[biggerisbetter]

As someone who uses services between Wigan and Manchester regularly (2-3 times per week return on average) and the direct services between Wigan and Leeds once every couple of weeks, I would be strongly in favour of the Atherton line being converted to Metrolink even if this resulted in direct services to Leeds being lost and even if the line terminated at Hindley.

Part of the issue with the current services is that the split between Oxford Road and Victoria can often mean the effective frequency is lower. I used to live on a Metrolink line and the frequency coupled with consistency of routing outweigh the negatives in my view such as lack of toilets, tables and possibly slightly longer journey times.

On the possibly longer journey times this would be very marginal as the shorter average wait for a service, shorter dwell times, better acceleration and better city centre penetration would likely offset any increased journey time due to some additional stops. These additional stops such as at Pendleton, Pendlebury, Mort Lane for Little Hilton and Dobb Brow would provide additional patronage and connectivity that justify the additional frequencies.

 

[yorksrob]

But Metrolink doesn't really have that much on street running, certainly not compared to buses which are just dumped directly onto largely unmodified city streets.

Meanwhile, there are fundamental limits in station capacity in central Manchester that will not be easily overcome.

I'm not particularly sold on a "regional role" for the Atherton line given that is probably least effective of the three routes from Manchester to Wigan.
I don't see it having much if any advantage over either the route via Bolton or the route via Eccles, with the latter being the fastest of the three.

Surely that depends on which bit of North West Manchester you're traveling from. Walkden and Atherton will inevitably be further from a main line connection.

The station capacity issue is solved by running through services across Victoria.

Using Metrolink offers a connection at Salford Crescent if the on street route is particularly bad.

I think there is more appetite for segregated Metrolink tracks than there is for bus lanes. It will be down to the precise design of the route once it reaches the end of Salford Crescent. The Crescent itself is wide enough to create separated tram lines given it used to be up to 3 lanes wide in each direction.

The section on the Atherton line would be higher frequency and, thanks to the experts on here, be only marginally slower than the train (acceleration may actually give trams an advantage).

As @HSTEd notes, the heavy rail element is really only about direct services from the stations on the Atherton line to destinations beyond Wigan and beyond Manchester. Other routes provide the connection between Wigan and Manchester.

In terms of speeds, at Victoria the tram goes straight from the centre onto the old main line railway. I can't see this being the case from the West. Surely a new way or street running would need to be added from Salford. A long pootle

As someone who uses services between Wigan and Manchester regularly (2-3 times per week return on average) and the direct services between Wigan and Leeds once every couple of weeks, I would be strongly in favour of the Atherton line being converted to Metrolink even if this resulted in direct services to Leeds being lost and even if the line terminated at Hindley.

Part of the issue with the current services is that the split between Oxford Road and Victoria can often mean the effective frequency is lower. I used to live on a Metrolink line and the frequency coupled with consistency of routing outweigh the negatives in my view such as lack of toilets, tables and possibly slightly longer journey times.

On the possibly longer journey times this would be very marginal as the shorter average wait for a service, shorter dwell times, better acceleration and better city centre penetration would likely offset any increased journey time due to some additional stops. These additional stops such as at Pendleton, Pendlebury, Mort Lane for Little Hilton and Dobb Brow would provide additional patronage and connectivity that justify the additional frequencies.

As a Wiganer, you have other options for a reasonably speedy train service. Those of us who use Atherton/Walkden etc don't.

As someone who uses services between Wigan and Manchester regularly (2-3 times per week return on average) and the direct services between Wigan and Leeds once every couple of weeks, I would be strongly in favour of the Atherton line being converted to Metrolink even if this resulted in direct services to Leeds being lost and even if the line terminated at Hindley.

Part of the issue with the current services is that the split between Oxford Road and Victoria can often mean the effective frequency is lower. I used to live on a Metrolink line and the frequency coupled with consistency of routing outweigh the negatives in my view such as lack of toilets, tables and possibly slightly longer journey times.

On the possibly longer journey times this would be very marginal as the shorter average wait for a service, shorter dwell times, better acceleration and better city centre penetration would likely offset any increased journey time due to some additional stops. These additional stops such as at Pendleton, Pendlebury, Mort Lane for Little Hilton and Dobb Brow would provide additional patronage and connectivity that justify the additional frequencies.

As a Wiganer, you have other options for a reasonably speedy train service. Those of us who use Atherton/Walkden etc don't.

 

[The Planner]

How fast can Manchester trams go? If it's 40mph then realistically Atherton to the centre of Manchester would take at least 45 minutes, allowing for delays and slower speeds once it goes to street level around Chapel Street. The Atherton line could also be upgraded to 70mph with improved signalling to deliver the 4tph frequency which was promised in 2018, bringing a 25 minute journey time from Atherton down to 15-20.

I asked you that question. Why would it take 45 minutes to get to the centre of Manchester? Its 25 minutes to Victoria, where does the extra 20 come from?
Bringing the Atherton line up to 70mph would make negligible difference, its 3½ miles between Atherton and Walkden, 2½ between Walkden and Swinton. You won't get to 70mph for long enough to come close to saving 10 minutes. Once you are at Salford then you are in the mix of everything else. You don't need to upgrade the signalling, you can run trains 4 minutes apart now.

A sizeable number of people travel between Stockport and Salford/Bolton.

ORR data says 11756 journeys a year between Stockport and Bolton, a similar amount for Salford.

 

[biggerisbetter]

As a Wiganer, you have other options for a reasonably speedy train service. Those of us who use Atherton/Walkden etc don't.

Do those from Atherton / Walkden etc. not want access to a more regular service with better city centre penetration, better access to parts of Salford (Pendleton, Pendelbury, Little Hulton, Chapel Street), similar journey times, contactless payments and level boarding?

The main downside I accept is that connections to other mainline services will not be quite as good but without a direct connection to Piccadilly at present anyway which has the greater range of services across the country, this negative is in my view more than outweighed by the positives. I would imagine most people along the Atherton line would agree as evidence from the Oldham Loop conversion showed that patronage increased over four fold following Metrolink conversion.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Do those from Atherton / Walkden etc. not want access to a more regular service with better city centre penetration, better access to parts of Salford (Pendleton, Pendelbury, Little Hulton, Chapel Street), similar journey times, contactless payments and level boarding?

A more regular service is exactly what I'd love to have.
Especially with the current Sunday issues meaning there are often 3 hour gaps without trains.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not sure the roughly one mile between Salford Crescent and Salford Central would be that much slower on Chapel Street than it is now on the railway.
The highest line speed is 40mph, with significant stretches of 30mph and 25mph. Meanwhile a lot of Chapel street has a large central reservation that implies a significant degree of separation from traffic would be achievable.

Once you are at Salford Central the tram likely crosses the railway at right angles and heads off into the centre of the city, so direct comparisons are irrelevant beyond that point in any case.