If it exists, shouldn't they use it to convert the busway !
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Time for the Atherton line to connect to Piccadilly?
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If it exists, shouldn't they use it to convert the busway !
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
How is the guided busway doing these days in relation to what was expected numbers-wise when it was first launched? Is it well-received by the residents of the settlements along the actual busway from Leigh to Ellenbrook?
None. All the proposals for converting either the busway or the Atherton line are pipe dreams. It will stay an unelectrified heavy rail line for the foreseeable future.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
This was the question that was asked on the very first posting on this thread and I wonder if amongst the many postings made upon this thread if any answer was forthcoming?
Thank goodness for that.
biggerisbetter
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The only street running section for a Metrolink conversion of the Atherton line would be from Salford Crescent to the city centre second crossing which has capacity for up to 30 trams per hour and would have capacity for 10 trams per hour even if the crossing of the A34 next to the Midland hotel was maxed out at it’s 45 trams per hour capacity (will be 40 per hour once Trafford Centre line is extended to Crumpsall).
This would be along a likely further traffic restricted Chapel Street so their would be limited interaction with general traffic. The increase in journey time as a result of this would be more than offset by a significant reduction in dwell times, increased frequency, better acceleration and braking and improved city centre penetration as a result of tram conversion even with additional stops.
The only way the busway is likely to be converted to a Metrolink line in my view is if the Atherton rai line is also converted as the main issue with the busway at present is the congestion and delay to journey times once the buses leave and enter normal roads. Conversation of the Atherton line would then allow funnelling of the new tram services from Leigh along the Atherton line.
As a resident of Wigan who uses the train regularly, I would be strongly in favour of conversion as having lived on a Metrolink line before, think this is materially superior to stopping train services along an urban corridor.
This would be along a likely further traffic restricted Chapel Street so their would be limited interaction with general traffic. The increase in journey time as a result of this would be more than offset by a significant reduction in dwell times, increased frequency, better acceleration and braking and improved city centre penetration as a result of tram conversion even with additional stops.
The only way the busway is likely to be converted to a Metrolink line in my view is if the Atherton rai line is also converted as the main issue with the busway at present is the congestion and delay to journey times once the buses leave and enter normal roads. Conversation of the Atherton line would then allow funnelling of the new tram services from Leigh along the Atherton line.
As a resident of Wigan who uses the train regularly, I would be strongly in favour of conversion as having lived on a Metrolink line before, think this is materially superior to stopping train services along an urban corridor.
Topological
Established Member
The answer splits into two parts
1) Should the Atherton line be connected to Piccadilly via the Castlefield Corridor?
2) Should Metrolink be used to connect the Atherton line to Piccadilly?
The majority of postings moved to 2) because of the challenges of 1) identified earlier in the thread.
Currently, the Southport train goes via Bolton and into Piccadilly, but that does not allow the Atherton line to connect to Piccadilly.
Swapping so that the Southport train goes via the Atherton Line and a different train goes via Bolton would be an issue for the bi-mode 769s as well as the additional journey time of serving the stations on the Atherton Line (to make up for the removed stopper)
In essence we get to 2) and that has been the focus of the threads development.
Sorry, how exactly would conversion of the busway rely on conversion of the rail link. Please explain.
As a resident of Wigan, perhaps you could explain why you want two metro type systems (busway and tram) in the same corridor, rather than a metro and a regional railway system ?
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
No it doesn't!
It does go into the Castlefield corridor, but termiantes at Oxford Road, not reaching Piccadilly.
The train arrives at xx:15 or xx:18 depending on the hour, with the next connecting train 8-11 minutes later as the ex-Scotland TPE (which I'd imagine will be quite busy).
Minimum connection time at Oxford Road is 5 minutes (and platform 5 to platform 4 could be done in 10 seconds).
On the return the connection works worse, with trains to Southport leaving Oxford Road at xx:27 (Except the last train at 21:30)
Excluding the xx:24 TPE to Scotland, giving only 3 minutes to get from door to door, the connecting train is the 12:09 arrival from Cleethorpes, giving a whole 18 minutes to get from platform 2 to platform 5.
Minimum connection time at Oxford Road is 5 minutes (and platform 5 to platform 4 could be done in 10 seconds).
On the return the connection works worse, with trains to Southport leaving Oxford Road at xx:27 (Except the last train at 21:30)
Excluding the xx:24 TPE to Scotland, giving only 3 minutes to get from door to door, the connecting train is the 12:09 arrival from Cleethorpes, giving a whole 18 minutes to get from platform 2 to platform 5.
I've tried quoting the above post but it's not working. Christ alone knows.
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biggerisbetter
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Where would the trams on the converted former busway go to once they get to the end?
You could potentially extend the busway converted to a tram line further towards Manchester on the former Roe Green Loopline but you would need a new on-street alignment from Monton or along the East Lancs which would be too slow and incredibly expensive and disruptive. Instead, if the Atherton line were converted to Metrolink a spur could be added from the former busway, now tramline along the former rail line parallel to Newearth Road to join the Atherton line a short distance to the west of Walkden station allowing trams from Leigh to get much closer to the city centre before running on street.
Your second question makes no sense. I don’t want two Metro type systems. I want a Metrolink line serving both Wigan and Leigh with ‘regional type rail services’ (whatever they are) continuing to run to Wigan via Westhoughton.
The ‘system’ itself is irrelevant really as it’s about the service that can be provided and with pathing constraints on the rail network a Metrolink conversion can provide greater frequency, level boarding, a greater choice of destinations and better penetration of the city centre than the current rail services do.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Has anyone developed the OP question of Wigan having a regular direct service to Manchester Airport. Wigan as a large area either has Manchester Airport or the smaller one in Liverpool as their nearest ones.
daodao
Established Member
A good idea. Trams could run every 6 minutes from Salford/Manchester city centre to Walkden, and then every 12 minutes on each of the 2 branches to Leigh and to Atherton and beyond. The biggest challenge would be the "on street" alignment from Pendleton/Salford Crescent to Manchester city centre. There would need to be careful consideration of how it would join the existing Metrolink network, possibly via John Dalton Street to join the line emerging from Cross Street at the corner of Albert Square. However, this would not provide a direct connection to Piccadilly - passengers would need to change at the St Peter's Square tram stop.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
All very interesting, but what on earth has this got to do with the thread OP of providing a heavy rail service from Wigan to Manchester Airport?
daodao
Established Member
The thread title concerns connecting the Atherton line to Piccadilly, not Wigan to Manchester Airport. I support conversion of the Atherton line to Metrolink, but was pointing out that it would probably not provide a direct connection to Piccadilly, although I don't consider this especially important.
There are still several decaying unelectrified suburban rail routes in Greater Manchester with poor services, such as the Atherton line and the lines via Romiley. The conversion of one previous such line (Victoria-Oldham-Rochdale) to Metrolink has demonstrated that this is an economical and beneficial way of revitalising this type of line, without incurring massive ongoing running costs and inflexibility, with poorer frequencies, that heavy rail electrification would lead to.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The very first posting on this thread needs to be read in full. When read, the use of heavy rail train services from Southport via the Atherton line being taken from Manchester Oxford Road railway to and sent to Manchester Victoria railway station and that path being used for a Wigan to Manchester Airport heavy rail service via Manchester Picadilly railway station.
It is always better to read a thread title and the original posting together in order to fully comprehend what the OP has actually to say.
The frequency might not be as high with main line electrification, however I would argue that it is a flexible solution and can potentially provide access to both Victoria and onwards and Piccadilly. Piccadilly is important because its the main route south.
The Atherton line isn't decaying (it was recently resignalled and its stations are well kept and provide decent cover from the elements) and its service isn't especially poor - although electrification should bring an uplift.
The tramway could potentially split with a branch to Leigh and another continuing along the disused route to Wigan. In fact this solution would give Leigh a metro type service whereas converting the Atherton line wouldn't.
Ultimately unless the tunnel mentioned upthread is built through central Manchester, the tram will inevitably result in a slow trundle through the city streets.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
And even providing disruption to journeys noting of the numerous Metrolink problems of assorted types that have occurred so far in 2024...
And even providing disruption to journeys noting of the numerous Metrolink problems of assorted types that have occurred so far in 2024...
Indeed !
Topological
Established Member
The rumours suggested that the line coming in from Chapel Street would continue south across Portland Street to turn at Whitworth Street towards Piccadilly. It was seen as a way of getting more of the tram-trains from East Manchester conversions to somewhere West. I have not heard more about the aspirations for Metrolink on Whitworth Street for some time though. The Chapel Street element of the line certainly appears in all the masterplan documents for Salford University.
Thank you to those who corrected me on the Southport trains terminating at Oxford Road. I was unaware of that change. Extending those to Piccadilly and the Airport seems like an option, but presumably paths on the Oxford Road to Piccadilly section are the issue there.
Whilst all street running is necessarily slower than designated alignment, Manchester does a good job of keeping the city centre sections moving and free from cars.
Thank you to those who corrected me on the Southport trains terminating at Oxford Road. I was unaware of that change. Extending those to Piccadilly and the Airport seems like an option, but presumably paths on the Oxford Road to Piccadilly section are the issue there.
Whilst all street running is necessarily slower than designated alignment, Manchester does a good job of keeping the city centre sections moving and free from cars.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Ever been on Deansgate?
Topological
Established Member
Yes, though it is sad that Kendals is not what it was.
No trams though. Metrolink uses Cross Street for the second city crossing for good reason.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Do you also remember the number of months that Cross Street was utterly disrupted during the period of the installation of the Second City Crossing to the detriment of the businesses and the shoppers?
Topological
Established Member
Yes, though that only needs doing once*
Saying once because of the times they have altered the original crossing (e.g. swapping High Street station for the Market Street one) and then the later works on Moseley Street.
I am not sure what any of this has to do with the Atherton Line, save the fact Metrolink on Chapel Street needs building and needs connecting into the present network. In the broader picture the Chapel Street line will not be the last time the network needs upgrading.
daodao
Established Member
Any tram line built along Chapel Street in Salford would probably then need to cross Deansgate to link up with the existing Metrolink network. However, there haven't been any tram routes along Deansgate since 31st March 1947, nor are there any proposals to build a tram route along it.
Topological
Established Member
Yes, I was unsure what exactly the reason for mentioning Deansgate in @Xenophon PCDGS post actually was.
Deansgate is mooted for pedestrianisation after various experiments during Covid. They may even be making progress on it. I only tend to use the part between Deansgate One and Victoria nowadays and that does have traffic on it.
I think the main point is that apart form a disruptive period of building the line, the routes taken by any trams from North West Manchester will be comparatively traffic free and segregated from roads used by cars.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
When it was decided to commence a new Metrolink service to the Chorlton area, the plan was to use the closed Cheshire Lines Committee heavy rail line for trams in the Manchester-bound direction from Firswood tram stop needing to access Trafford Bar tram stop, a new line was diverged just before the tunnel and under the Altrincham line then up a steep incline to join the Altrincham to Manchester line.
Is there any opportunity to do something similar with the proposed Chapel Street line in the region of the Liverpool Road/Street (?) area in order to access Deansgate- Castlefield tram stop, thus obviating any road crossing of Deansgate?
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Topological
Established Member
The challenges presented here are the height of the Castlefield viaduct and the listing applied to the structure.
The junction at Trafford Bar actually made use of the old alignment which had previously bridged underneath the Altrincham line on its way from Chorlton to Manchester Central. From memory, the bridge the Altrincham Metrolink uses is based on the original.
There was talk of using an extension from Media City to Salford Crescent to avoid using Chapel Street, but that was ruled out because of the limited capacity through Castlefield Viaduct and then at the St Peters Square crossing of Oxford Road/Street*. Any use of a junction after the Deansgate bridge would have the same issue.
Crossing Deansgate on the level is not going to cause any more, or less, problems than having traffic light controlled junctions elsewhere does (e.g. the junction for Liverpool Road outside the Hilton, or the junction of Oxford Street)
* I always forget where the name change is, but hopefully we all know the road being referred to.
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