TOC contract expiry dates

[trebor79]

What do you mean by slow attrition of catering provision? I can’t think anything has changed in the last few years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2024 ==

Screens at Norwich are just a glitch. Only been this week and will be sorted asap.

Things like coffee is out of a flask now instead of a machine. Tea sometimes made with "hot water" out of a flask instead of the boiler. Don't do porridge any more (why, it's not perishable?). Think there used to be better selection of sandwiches etc too.

 

[dk1]

Things like coffee is out of a flask now instead of a machine. Tea sometimes made with "hot water" out of a flask instead of the boiler. Don't do porridge any more (why, it's not perishable?). Think there used to be better selection of sandwiches etc too.

Lavazza has been changed for a regional coffee company. The flask was always planned with the new fleet. A couple of 745/0s have had boiler issues but they are being sorted. Appears to be different sandwiches available. Will endeavour to find out the porridge situation for you. Staffing is not a problem with continuous recruitment and the busiest services aim to have bar & trolley provision throughout the journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2024 ==

Just been told a replacement porridge is being sought due to an undisclosed issue but they have never been much of a seller onboard anyway so doesn’t look like they’ll be many who mourn them.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Even if there is one state-owned operating company, it will have to be organised with divisions in some manner. It can't be managed as a single block although one company could give direction to those divisions. Most of the TOC 'boundaries' are fairly logical.

The TOCs were originally created out of BR divisions and service groups. In practice the core of the 'TOC' operation remains, but fleet, ticketing, property and other activities are handled at a more appropriate level, and there is a chain of command and accountability for strategic decision making rather than hoping it will all magically happen.

 

[450.emu]

Noticed at Liverpool Street station new signage above ths destination boards, replacing the Network Rail sign that was there before, with the station name in the GBR corporate font, definitely some changes afoot.

 

[VauxhallNova]

First TPE were barred by the DfT to offer the same deal so wasn’t exactly a level playing field.

This one, that First TPE offered and had accepted? https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s of movement, a rest,ban will be short-lived.

 

[Class 170101]

GA is a very good operator from this passengers POV. Trains are clean and run on time, though the continual slow attrition of catering provision is regrettable.

Yes there catering issues sometimes, no staffing on the Intercity train I was last on very recently

Bringing it into public owners will achieve little IMV.

Agreed, though there look to be some missing services at Hertford East last Sunday (only hourly)

Realtime Trains | Departures from Hertford East between 0200 and 0159 on 14/07/2024

Train information at Hertford East between 0200 and 0159 on 14/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

But they need to fix the departure boards at Norwich, 2 of them were stuck on early morning departures this afternoon and one was completely blank.

Computer says no?

 

[dk1]

Yes there catering issues sometimes, no staffing on the Intercity train I was last on very recently

That is extremely rare. Was it booked to have catering or was it on a Sunday?

 

[Class 170101]

That is extremely rare. Was it booked to have catering or was it on a Sunday?

Saturday and booked to have catering.

 

[dk1]

Saturday and booked to have catering.

Ah okay. Must’ve been very late notice sickness or a rostering error.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2024 ==

Not often trains are uncovered nowadays except for Sundays.

 

[westv]

Apologies if I've missed it but , where will this leave operators like Hull Trains?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Apologies if I've missed it but , where will this leave operators like Hull Trains?

No change, Labour has said it won’t nationalise private operators who don’t work under a DfT contract such as freight, open access or Eurostar.

 

[43066]

Apologies if I've missed it but , where will this leave operators like Hull Trains?

Open access are carrying on as they are, AIUI.

 

[westv]

Thanks for both answers.

 

[Danfilm007]

No change, Labour has said it won’t nationalise private operators who don’t work under a DfT contract such as freight, open access or Eurostar.

Are they going for full-blown nationalisation then?

When The King said "My ministers will bring forward legislation to improve the railways by reforming rail franchising, establishing Great British Railways and bringing train operators into public ownership.", the fact he said 'reform' franchising as opposed to ending franchising might leave the door open for some kind of delivery contract as we currently see, but with the legal ownership of the operators the state?

 

[Cloud Strife]

the fact he said 'reform' franchising as opposed to ending franchising might leave the door open for some kind of delivery contract as we currently see, but with the legal ownership of the operators the state?

I suspect that what will happen is that the franchises will still exist, but that they will be operated by some sort of delivery contract where the state controls everything and the service provider just makes sure that the trains are running. It's quite a logical way forward and works well in Germany.

 

[Gigabit]

Can we get on and remove South Western Failway please?

 

[eldomtom2]

I suspect that what will happen is that the franchises will still exist, but that they will be operated by some sort of delivery contract where the state controls everything and the service provider just makes sure that the trains are running. It's quite a logical way forward and works well in Germany.

That's the current system - why would Labour be introducing a stopgap bill to make OLR takeover the default option if that was their plan?

 

[Danfilm007]

I suspect that what will happen is that the franchises will still exist, but that they will be operated by some sort of delivery contract where the state controls everything and the service provider just makes sure that the trains are running. It's quite a logical way forward and works well in Germany.

I thought that too - the wording seemed quite open compared to "we're taking it back in house" in the way that bus franchising is going to be set up. IF the DFT are more lax (with Peter Hendy at the wheel I hope so!) we might get the best of both worlds...

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Can we get on and remove South Western Failway please?

What are the current issues and would these be solved by running as a nationalised operator?

The delayed 701 introduction is due to failure to agree a method of operation with ASLEF for the operation of the train which in part is being held back by the national dispute so very little would change there - what other issues are there?

 

[Djgr]

Open access are carrying on as they are, AIUI.

For now, although it is difficult to see how they fit in the longer term

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For now, although it is difficult to see how they fit in the longer term

The point is, I think, that the new legislation will not produce a monopoly like BR was.
Allowing multiple operators means the level playing field of access charges and competition regulated by ORR will continue to apply.
There will be two railway Bills, one to allow state control in place of franchising, the other to set up GBR as public sector operator (scope and structure to be defined).
I didn't notice anything said about fares reform, or a new passenger offer, although that might emerge in the debate on the King's speech.
More devolution to English mayors seems very likely.

 

[Goldfish62]

I didn't notice anything said about fares reform, or a new passenger offer.

Far too early for any of that. GBR or at least a shadow GBR has to get up and running first.

Does it require an act of parliament to reform fares?

 

[eldomtom2]

I didn't notice anything said about fares reform, or a new passenger offer, although that might emerge in the debate on the King's speech.

Check the background briefing, that's where the meat is:

King's Speech 2024: background briefing notes

Read the briefing notes on the announcements made in the 2024 King’s Speech.

www.gov.uk

 

[Gigabit]

What are the current issues and would these be solved by running as a nationalised operator?

The delayed 701 introduction is due to failure to agree a method of operation with ASLEF for the operation of the train which in part is being held back by the national dispute so very little would change there - what other issues are there?

Ever since they came in, the delays and service quality has gone backwards. Anyone who travelled on the previous SWT would confirm what a massive step back the new provider has been.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Far too early for any of that. GBR or at least a shadow GBR has to get up and running first.
Does it require an act of parliament to reform fares?

There's a whole set of contracts and industry applications based on the regulated fares system (ORCATS and the rest).
DfT is the fares regulator (annual fares formula etc), and it might need legislation to devolve that to GBR.
But within the current setup change can take place (cf LNER's single fare offer).
The DfT-owned TOCs could probably change fares without legislation, with other TOCs rolled in as they become part of GBR.
But I agree it is unlikely to happen quickly.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Ever since they came in, the delays and service quality has gone backwards. Anyone who travelled on the previous SWT would confirm what a massive step back the new provider has been.

The delays are largely down to NR infrastructure issues which the train operator has no control over.

With regard to the service delivery, it was actually the previous operator, SWT that set the downwards trend by moving the control from Waterloo to Basingstoke in Easter 2017. This resulted in a lot of experienced people leaving and something SWR then inherited that summer when the new franchise started.

Neither of these issues would be resolved by nationalisation.

 

[Djgr]

The point is, I think, that the new legislation will not produce a monopoly like BR was.
Allowing multiple operators means the level playing field of access charges and competition regulated by ORR will continue to apply.
There will be two railway Bills, one to allow state control in place of franchising, the other to set up GBR as public sector operator (scope and structure to be defined).
I didn't notice anything said about fares reform, or a new passenger offer, although that might emerge in the debate on the King's speech.
More devolution to English mayors seems very likely.

Early days but, if you see more benefit from network coordination rather than from competition, I would be gunning for them.

 

[Goldfish62]

Ever since they came in, the delays and service quality has gone backwards. Anyone who travelled on the previous SWT would confirm what a massive step back the new provider has been.

Agreed. Nationalisation per se wouldn't really change anything, but what would is a wholesale change of senior management. Failure, delay and inaction have been baked in ever since SWR took over in 2017 and it feels almost as if it's part of the company culture.

The world over whenever a company is taken over and the new owner wants a cultural change the senior management is replaced overnight.

 

[Gigabit]

The delays are largely down to NR infrastructure issues which the train operator has no control over.

With regard to the service delivery, it was actually the previous operator, SWT that set the downwards trend by moving the control from Waterloo to Basingstoke in Easter 2017. This resulted in a lot of experienced people leaving and something SWR then inherited that summer when the new franchise started.

Neither of these issues would be resolved by nationalisation.

I think it's strange that the service started to really go backwards when it changed over - I commuted daily for five years and it was noticeably backwards when SWR came in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2024 ==

The delays are largely down to NR infrastructure issues which the train operator has no control over.

With regard to the service delivery, it was actually the previous operator, SWT that set the downwards trend by moving the control from Waterloo to Basingstoke in Easter 2017. This resulted in a lot of experienced people leaving and something SWR then inherited that summer when the new franchise started.

Neither of these issues would be resolved by nationalisation.

Didn't SWR bid with ridiculous terms they couldn't deliver, that SWT refused to join them in as they knew it was impossible? The DfT have a lot to answer for.

SWR should have been stripped off the contract/franchise two years ago.

 

[Snow1964]

Realistically can they take over the first batch in just 8 weeks (a period including summer recess)

Great Anglia, West Midlands, London North Western all 15th Sept

South Eastern 4 weeks later on 13th October.

As there is normally a 3 month's minimum notice for stopping at end of core term, if this hasn't been done, presumably carries on into the optional period. Have I understood this correctly.