TOC contract expiry dates

[Djgr]

Realistically can they take over the first batch in just 8 weeks (a period including summer recess)

Great Anglia, West Midlands, London North Western all 15th Sept

South Eastern 4 weeks later on 13th October.

As there is normally a 3 month's minimum notice for stopping at end of core term, if this hasn't been done, presumably carries on into the optional period. Have I understood this correctly.

I don't think that this is the intention. Unless you know something I don't!

 

[TheLastMinute]

The Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill - the enabling legislation that will allow the public sector to operate passenger railway services - will have it's first reading in the Commons tomorrow, Thurs 18th July.

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3732

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3732/stages

 

[Facing Back]

The Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill - the enabling legislation that will allow the public sector to operate passenger railway services - will have it's first reading in the Commons tomorrow, Thurs 18th July.

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3732

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3732/stages

Wow. That was quick.

 

[Snow1964]

Wow. That was quick.

First reading is more a formality, probably will 9m ly be handful of people in chamber to hear it.

Probably copied and paraphrased from earlier legislation to compile the legislation drafting to get it done quickly.

 

[Clarence Yard]

With Sue Gray as the PM’s Chief of Staff, they will be no hanging around in the various ministries!

 

[Danfilm007]

"A Bill to make provision for passenger railway services to be provided by public sector companies instead of by means of franchises."

So therefore the "reform" of franchise = "burn on bonfire!" Not totally unexpected given their manifesto but it will be interesting to see if there ends up with any kind of private sector involvement, whether through contracts like today etc

 

[thedbdiboy]

The point is, I think, that the new legislation will not produce a monopoly like BR was.
Allowing multiple operators means the level playing field of access charges and competition regulated by ORR will continue to apply.
There will be two railway Bills, one to allow state control in place of franchising, the other to set up GBR as public sector operator (scope and structure to be defined).
I didn't notice anything said about fares reform, or a new passenger offer, although that might emerge in the debate on the King's speech.
More devolution to English mayors seems very likely.

Far too early for any of that. GBR or at least a shadow GBR has to get up and running first.

Does it require an act of parliament to reform fares?

The current legislation grants powers for the Franchising Director to regulate fares and make provision for Railcards. It doesn't state that they have to, or what these should be

There's a whole set of contracts and industry applications based on the regulated fares system (ORCATS and the rest).
DfT is the fares regulator (annual fares formula etc), and it might need legislation to devolve that to GBR.
But within the current setup change can take place (cf LNER's single fare offer).
The DfT-owned TOCs could probably change fares without legislation, with other TOCs rolled in as they become part of GBR.
But I agree it is unlikely to happen quickly.

I would expect that the right to regulate will transfer to GBR; but whilst this will be needed in respect of managing the run-out of the existing contracts, it's unlikely to apply to GBRs own fares because fare levels are a policy matter for (elected) Government to agree. No fare regulation is the subject of legislation - all that is provided for is the right to regulate.

 

[Msq71423]

Pages 26-27 of the following document give a little more detail about the planned railway bill. Apologies I can't copy and paste the content from the page due to PDF on my phone, hopefully someone can do this!

King's Speech 2024: background briefing notes

Read the briefing notes on the announcements made in the 2024 King’s Speech.

www.gov.uk

 

[VauxhallNova]

I think it's strange that the service started to really go backwards when it changed over - I commuted daily for five years and it was noticeably backwards when SWR came in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2024 ==



Didn't SWR bid with ridiculous terms they couldn't deliver, that SWT refused to join them in as they knew it was impossible? The DfT have a lot to answer for.

SWR should have been stripped off the contract/franchise two years ago.

Indeed they did overbid, resulting in First having to make onerous contract provisions due to anticipated losses. Part of their unrealistic assumptions included the proposal for DOO, resulting in a strong reaction from RMT "Members of the Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union on SWR have staged a series of strikes stretching back more than two years in a dispute over the role of guards, which has caused severe disruption for passengers."

Even Grant Shapps was forced to concede the franchise was not sustainable; "In a written statement to parliament, Shapps said the company’s recent financial statements indicated that the franchise, which began in August 2017 and stretches from London to the Surrey commuter belt, Bournemouth and Exeter, 'is not sustainable in the long term'."

Both quotes taken from https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ern-railway-not-sustainable-says-grant-shapps

In the end they were saved by Covid and paid out with only minimal losses, as was another First operator, in return for leading the industry's proposed "workplace reforms".

 

[Clarence Yard]

SWR did not propose DOO, it was DCO and that was a DfT bid requirement for new stock. The unrealistic bit of the bid was the timetable, which was a DfT spec. agreed with NR HQ but loathed by the Route, who, after award, would not accept it.

At the time of Covid, there was a right row going on as to whose fault the timetable debacle was and it was going to get seriously legal. FG had to make a provision in their books as there was no guarantee they would get an adjustment through the change mechanisms. That’s what they do with all their TOCs and they then tend to reverse the provisions, at least in part, at a later date.

 

[Facing Back]

SWR did not propose DOO, it was DCO and that was a DfT bid requirement for new stock. The unrealistic bit of the bid was the timetable, which was a DfT spec. agreed with NR HQ but loathed by the Route, who, after award, would not accept it.

At the time of Covid, there was a right row going on as to whose fault the timetable debacle was and it was going to get seriously legal. FG had to make a provision in their books as there was no guarantee they would get an adjustment through the change mechanisms. That’s what they do with all their TOCs and they then tend to reverse the provisions, at least in part, at a later date.

is "The Route" a part of NR?

 

[Haywain]

is "The Route" a part of NR?

Yes, the region, if you like.

 

[dk1]

Dominic Booth (Transport UK) has announced this morning that the earliest Greater Anglia & West Midlands Trains will expire is September 2026.

 

[Danfilm007]

Dominic Booth (Transport UK) has announced this morning that the earliest Greater Anglia & West Midlands Trains will expire is September 2026.

So they've given them an extension?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So they've given them an extension?

No, it's just the natural expiry date of the GA NRC contract.
I think he's saying they don't expect government intervention before then (assuming reasonable performance).

 

[Rover77]

Just my personal opinion but I think the Government may have realised that termination of contracts before expiry dates may prove more difficult than they would like. I suspect they will try their best to show decisive action and deal with Avanti first, but may end up frustrated. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[bramling]

No, it's just the natural expiry date of the GA NRC contract.
I think he's saying they don't expect government intervention before then (assuming reasonable performance).

Given that GA in particular seems to be one of the operators regarded as performing fairly well, it probably shouldn’t be seen as a surprise that there is no desire to rock the boat here. It will be interesting to see what happens with some of the ones where performance is less sparkling, such as Avanti or SWR.

 

[Facing Back]

Yes, the region, if you like.

Thanks

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned in previous pages, but what might nationalisation of WMT mean in the context of the general ambition to have all public transport (trains, trams, buses) under TFWM control? Thinking on that, is that even still the new West Mids Mayor's intention? Could GBR 'devolve' resposibility for train operators back to local authorities?

I feel like the question itself is a bit confused - does anyone really know how this might play out?

 

[dk1]

So they've given them an extension?

It had been that date since TUK took over as far as I'm aware.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2024 ==

No, it's just the natural expiry date of the GA NRC contract.
I think he's saying they don't expect government intervention before then (assuming reasonable performance).

And not many perform better than us at GA

 

[LowLevel]

It had been that date since TUK took over as far as I'm aware.

That's the actual end date, the contract can be ended from 2 years before that with 3 months notice.

 

[dk1]

That's the actual end date, the contract can be ended from 2 years before that with 3 months notice.

Hopefully it won't, Only going by last nights official email.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2024 ==

It was stated that September 2026 is the earliest both can terminate in the email.

 

[LowLevel]

Hopefully it won't, Only going by last nights official email.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2024 ==

It was stated that September 2026 is the earliest both can terminate in the email.

It would seem to be shooting oneself in the foot given that Greater Anglia is a largely trouble free mostly self contained operation but that's a standard feature of the NRCs - there's a list on the Government website of the end dates and the dates at which they can be called in with notice and GA and WMR are both September 2024 with a September 2026 final expiry.

 

[snowball]

Yes, the region, if you like.

Though for a few years now Network Rail has had both things called Routes and and things called Regions.

Our routes - Network Rail

We run the company through devolved route businesses. Each of them is run locally, working closely with train and freight operating companies.

www.networkrail.co.uk

(link to map of routes and regions)

Previously it just had things called Routes that were actually regions.

 

[12LDA28C]

Are they going for full-blown nationalisation then?

When The King said "My ministers will bring forward legislation to improve the railways by reforming rail franchising, establishing Great British Railways and bringing train operators into public ownership.", the fact he said 'reform' franchising as opposed to ending franchising might leave the door open for some kind of delivery contract as we currently see, but with the legal ownership of the operators the state?

Depends what you consider 'full-blown nationalisation'.

It won't be back to the days of British Rail when BR owned the stock, for example. Trains will still be leased from ROSCOs as it would be hugely expensive to buy all the stock into public ownership.

And as already mentioned, private freight and OA operators will continue as they are.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned in previous pages, but what might nationalisation of WMT mean in the context of the general ambition to have all public transport (trains, trams, buses) under TFWM control? Thinking on that, is that even still the new West Mids Mayor's intention? Could GBR 'devolve' resposibility for train operators back to local authorities?
I feel like the question itself is a bit confused - does anyone really know how this might play out?

The intention is to devolve transport powers to the metro mayors.
The Tory plan was similar, and they set up the WMT contract as two virtual TOCs, LNR and WMR, with WMR intended to come within the WM mayor's purview.
Under Tory legislation the operations would still have been contracted out to the private sector.
Labour hasn't said it will continue with this plan, or some other, but we can be sure WMR will not be contracted out when the WMT contract expires.

What happens to other operations under mayor control is also not yet defined.
Merseyrail's (Serco/Transport UK) contract expires in 2028.
TfL's London Overground (Arriva) and Elizabeth Line (MTR) contracts were in the process of being re-bid.

Incidentally, another area that appears to be staying in the private sector, where it is currently contracted out, is train maintenance.
Most new train fleets are now maintained for the TOCs by the manufacturer, not directly by the TOCs themselves, who tend to maintain the old ex-BR fleets.
Some of these contracts extend over many years, eg the IEP contracts for Hitachi trains, and Alstom for Pendolinos.
On Merseyrail for instance, the new 777 fleet (also the remaining 50x) is maintained by Stadler.
That's unlikely to change even if the TOC operating contract goes to GBR.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

The GBR takeover probably would be gradual than full-blown as it would act as OLR, absorbing the existing DfT OLR, when each TOC contract expires - like SWR continuing unchanged thus under GBR instead of First MTR - then GBR could come into full emergence once all TOC contracts have expired?

Then all former TOC brands & liveries would change to GBR or an English brand of GBR as ScotRail & TfW would remain untouched.

I agree about WMR surviving as it would be under TfWM that LNR would be for the chopping block.

 

[TheLastMinute]

It would seem to be shooting oneself in the foot given that Greater Anglia is a largely trouble free mostly self contained operation but that's a standard feature of the NRCs - there's a list on the Government website of the end dates and the dates at which they can be called in with notice and GA and WMR are both September 2024 with a September 2026 final expiry.

Unless Transport UK have been given a strong private assurance, unsure why they would say what they have done as the East Anglia National Rail Contract have clear end dates. The Core Term Expiry Date is 15 September 2024 after which the Secretary of State can give notice of at least 3 reporting periods (12 weeks) to end the contract. If the SoS doesn't service any notice, the contract will continue until the Expiry Date of 20 September 2026.

Labour has stated that wanted to nationaise TOCs as soon as possible. Contractorally, the SoS could service notice on GA today and the contract would end after 3 full reporting periods at 0159 on 13 October 2024. Practically, I would expect that OLR need some preparation time before taking on GA. It may also need the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill to be passed before it's possible legally.

2. DURATION OF THIS CONTRACT

2.1 This Contract shall expire on the Expiry Date or pursuant to Chapter 9.4 (Remedies and Dispute Resolution).

2.2 Expiry on or after the Core Term Expiry Date
(a) If the Secretary of State gives at least three (3) Reporting Periods' notice to the Operator pursuant to this clause 2.2 (an “Expiry Notice”), this Contract shall expire on such date as the Secretary of State may stipulate in the Expiry Notice, provided that such date shall be:
(i) no earlier than the Core Term Expiry Date;
(ii) no later than the date set out in limb (a)(i) of the definition of “Expiry Date”; and
(iii) 01.59 on the first day of a Reporting Period.

“Core Term Expiry Date” means the later of:
(a) 01.59 on 15 September 2024; or
(b) Not Used;
....
“Expiry Date” means:
(a) the later of:
(i) 01.59 on 20 September 2026; or
(ii) Not Used; or
(b) any earlier date specified in an Expiry Notice issued in accordance with clause 2.2 (Expiry on or after the Core Term Expiry Date);

 

[alistairlees]

Hopefully it won't, Only going by last nights official email.
It was stated that September 2026 is the earliest both can terminate in the email.

Like all other NRC contracts the Abellio East Anglia Limited contract has:
- an Expiry Date (20 September 2026)
- a Core Term Expiry Date (15 September 2024)

The contract runs until the Expiry Date. However, the contract enables the DfT to terminate it on or after the Core Term Expiry Date, providing that:
- at least three rail periods ("Reporting Periods") notice is given
- the termination is at the end of a Reporting Period (in fact 01:59 in the morning)

If the DfT gives notice by 20th July (the end of Period 4), then the Abellio East Anglia Limited contract can be terminated from 01:59 on 13th October (start of Rail Period 8).

 

[CharlieSpotted]

The intention is to devolve transport powers to the metro mayors.
The Tory plan was similar, and they set up the WMT contract as two virtual TOCs, LNR and WMR, with WMR intended to come within the WM mayor's purview.
Under Tory legislation the operations would still have been contracted out to the private sector.
Labour hasn't said it will continue with this plan, or some other, but we can be sure WMR will not be contracted out when the WMT contract expires.

What happens to other operations under mayor control is also not yet defined.
Merseyrail's (Serco/Transport UK) contract expires in 2028.
TfL's London Overground (Arriva) and Elizabeth Line (MTR) contracts were in the process of being re-bid.

This is a useful summary - thank you.