TOC delay communications

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notoemt

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Are there any rules governing communicating delays with passengers? I've noticed that EMT are particularly poor with onboard communications. So much so I do wonder if there are any staff on the trains at all. Today my train was 30 minutes late into my home station (left on time) - I presume from getting stuck behind a FCC train plus slow running past kettering. I don't know, as I say the staff just ignored it.

by the by is something gone kaput on the MM? I saw that two trains from Sheffield had been cancelled on the board. The 17:55 and 1800 were also late leaving the StP.
 
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TEW

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TfL have a rule that train operators must apologise for a delay within 30 seconds (I think its 30 seconds) of being stopped. I'm not aware of any equivalent on the mainline railway though.
 

dvboy

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I think sometime it's the individual staff on board, rather than the TOC. You get good and bad (or no) information from all TOCs really.
 

pendolino

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TfL have a rule that train operators must apologise for a delay within 30 seconds (I think its 30 seconds) of being stopped. I'm not aware of any equivalent on the mainline railway though.

On Southern we are expected to make an announcement within 2 minutes. Not always possible though if you're DOO and on the CSR to the signaller at the time.
 

AlterEgo

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There's and initiative called PIDD (Passenger Information During Disruption), which some TOCs are already spearheading.

ATOC's code of practice for further reading:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/ACOP015v3%20-%20PIDD%20(2).pdf
 

tsr

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notoemt: OHLE problems have caused delays to all services running near Harpenden. A FCC train got stuck earlier and had to reverse, and it was deemed that no evacuation procedure was required. Since that point in time, the slow lines were closed, but the down slow line has now reopened, as far as I know. This caused congestion and the problem continues to cause delays of up to 45 minutes (it will do until further notice). NRE have more information available on their website.
 

142094

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TfL have a rule that train operators must apologise for a delay within 30 seconds (I think its 30 seconds) of being stopped. I'm not aware of any equivalent on the mainline railway though.

Is that a hard and fast rule or just 'best practice'? I know that on London Underground delays are communicated quickly due to the short headways between services and the fact that a delay will inevitably mean trains back up into the tunnels.
 

trentside

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Is that a hard and fast rule or just 'best practice'? I know that on London Underground delays are communicated quickly due to the short headways between services and the fact that a delay will inevitably mean trains back up into the tunnels.

I believe it's a mandatory requirement on LU. 30 seconds does seem a little quick, even with short headways. I was once on a Circle line train heading towards Hammersmith, following close to a H&C train and being held in most platforms - the driver initially made manual announcements, before switching to repeatedly playing the automated version. It seemed a little excessive, especially on an open section of line.

As for EMT - I've not experienced this issue myself. I do find that sometimes the PA system on the Meridians is less than perfect, being inaudible or subject to a great deal of interference or just randomly cutting out.
 

Class377/5

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There's and initiative called PIDD (Passenger Information During Disruption), which some TOCs are already spearheading.

ATOC's code of practice for further reading:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/ACOP015v3 - PIDD (2).pdf

Are there any rules governing communicating delays with passengers? I've noticed that EMT are particularly poor with onboard communications. So much so I do wonder if there are any staff on the trains at all. Today my train was 30 minutes late into my home station (left on time) - I presume from getting stuck behind a FCC train plus slow running past kettering. I don't know, as I say the staff just ignored it.

by the by is something gone kaput on the MM? I saw that two trains from Sheffield had been cancelled on the board. The 17:55 and 1800 were also late leaving the StP.

PIDD is no longer a initiative but now a licence condition of being a TOC. There are rules now set in motion but as of the 1st April it became formal. Some TOC's are indeed pushing forward but Network Rail is also working towards things. Also different TOC's have different rules and different information. For example on the Midland MainLine you have Netirk Rail run St Pancras, FCC Luton/Aurport/Bedford before you hit 'home' turf. NR and FCC won't give th same level of information as say Wellingborough as they will get internal stuff.

How ever a move towards a single set up is coming and you may be surprised who by.
 

causton

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I was once on a Circle line train heading towards Hammersmith, following close to a H&C train and being held in most platforms - the driver initially made manual announcements, before switching to repeatedly playing the automated version. It seemed a little excessive, especially on an open section of line.

Any smart driver would wait for a couple of minutes at the first station and/or drive slowly between stations... so they were either only 'delayed' once at the first station or always moving. Many people feel better if a train is moving slowly than if it constantly stops and starts if it's catching up with the one ahead!
 

Daniel

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Is that a hard and fast rule or just 'best practice'? I know that on London Underground delays are communicated quickly due to the short headways between services and the fact that a delay will inevitably mean trains back up into the tunnels.



Rule. A PA must be made within 30 seconds of stopping in a tunnel, and within 90 seconds in a platform.
 

notoemt

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I think sometime it's the individual staff on board, rather than the TOC. You get good and bad (or no) information from all TOCs really.

The problem is that with EMT they seem to have more bad communicators than good communicatiors. Maybe I'm just unlucky with the trains I get but it's got so I'm surprised when someone comes on the tannoy to apologise for the delay and saying they're looking into it with the driver.

I remember one morrning the train getting in to Stp at close to 8:30am as opposed to 8:07. The entire journey the staff (different members of staff) gave the normal arrival time, when it was blatantly obvious the delay was building up. Then they complained about passengers walking through first class because they were trying to set up for the return service.


Thanks for all the info folks. I'd noticed LU were very good at giving you info onboard the train. Hadn't realised it was a timed rule.

"Each TOC will define their Service Disruption Threshold/s above which these PIDD arrangements will apply along with the ways of determining this;"
I guess it's too much to ask that there is one standard service disruption threshold? :lol:
 

Class377/5

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Rule. A PA must be made within 30 seconds of stopping in a tunnel, and within 90 seconds in a platform.

Which leads to announcements like I don't know why we're waiting.

Interesting. If you believe the comments sent to the FCC Twitter account by customers, you would assume that they never do!

Drivers have improved so much but when people have earphones in and on phones then complain driver isn't making announcements when they didn't bother to listen!

Any smart driver would wait for a couple of minutes at the first station and/or drive slowly between stations... so they were either only 'delayed' once at the first station or always moving. Many people feel better if a train is moving slowly than if it constantly stops and starts if it's catching up with the one ahead!

No, any smart driver would stay in platform. Rule is now if there a problem to hold trains in platforms. This allows passengers to have doors open, useful on hot days on older units, rather than being stuck between stations. It's to stop being needed to be evacuated in cases where problem ballons into a much bigger problem.

If a train is driving slowly it's because driver has restrictive signals and can't go as fast as normal so there's nothing he can do.


The problem is that with EMT they seem to have more bad communicators than good communicatiors. Maybe I'm just unlucky with the trains I get but it's got so I'm surprised when someone comes on the tannoy to apologise for the delay and saying they're looking into it with the driver.

I remember one morrning the train getting in to Stp at close to 8:30am as opposed to 8:07. The entire journey the staff (different members of staff) gave the normal arrival time, when it was blatantly obvious the delay was building up. Then they complained about passengers walking through first class because they were trying to set up for the return service.

Thanks for all the info folks. I'd noticed LU were very good at giving you info onboard the train. Hadn't realised it was a timed rule.

"Each TOC will define their Service Disruption Threshold/s above which these PIDD arrangements will apply along with the ways of determining this;"
I guess it's too much to ask that there is one standard service disruption threshold? :lol:

There is one standard, PIDD. However it's a set if rules than aren't cast in stone but more a guide. They are open to Interpretation. PUDD is what the DfT and passenger groups agree should be own so any thing over and above this is better than expected.
 
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Interesting. If you believe the comments sent to the FCC Twitter account by customers, you would assume that they never do!

My experience is that they usually do make an announcement. Unfortunately all too often it is "I'm waiting to hear from the signaller what is going on ...". Their announcing has got a lot better and more consistent over the last couple of years. Of course, there are always some exceptions.
 
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EMT seem to never announce delays and information updates! Which seems to leave passengers uninformed during disruption.
Last night I was travelling back from st pancras on the 1955 Leeds service. The 1925 derby stopper got cancelled at late notice! Shortly before the departure of our train (which was ridiculously loaded because of the Derby lot and united fans on our trains) a HST pulled in and left a couple of minutes later which ran the 1925 Derby service, no announcement was made on our HST that the train was back running again . We followed it all the way and got into derby 45 down, no announcement was made at all to inform passengers why we kept stopping and with all the united fans on board people were getting annoyed!
There were little announcements throughout the service apart from we are now arriving in Leicester etc...
 

Squaddie

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My experience is that they usually do make an announcement. Unfortunately all too often it is "I'm waiting to hear from the signaller what is going on ...". Their announcing has got a lot better and more consistent over the last couple of years. Of course, there are always some exceptions.
Far too many announcements are made along the lines of "We're being held at a red signal. I hope to be moving again as soon as possible." That's just statin' the bleedin' obvious, and of no practical help to passengers.
 

transmanche

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Far too many announcements are made along the lines of "We're being held at a red signal. I hope to be moving again as soon as possible." That's just statin' the bleedin' obvious, and of no practical help to passengers.
It does, however, re-assure some passengers that it is just congestion, rather than some more serious problem (e.g. driver incapacitated).
 
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Far too many announcements are made along the lines of "We're being held at a red signal. I hope to be moving again as soon as possible." That's just statin' the bleedin' obvious, and of no practical help to passengers.

As far as a common passenger is aware, they have no clue what is happening!
 

causton

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Far too many announcements are made along the lines of "We're being held at a red signal. I hope to be moving again as soon as possible." That's just statin' the bleedin' obvious, and of no practical help to passengers.

That's what many passengers want though, at least you know the driver's there and not fallen asleep/passed away/left the cab to go to the toilet in the cess...!

(Not that I particularly agree, but we aren't 'normal' passengers ;) )
 

Mojo

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The issues relating to information during delays tends to be that the system isn't very intelligent when displaying delay information.

An example was last Tuesday when I was on my way into Bristol City Centre from Filton Abbey Wood, there were delays at Stapleton Road and an XC Voyager which passed through 45 Min earlier hadn't yet even got to Stapleton Road, which is normally just 3-4 Min away. We were waiting for the 16.09 to Portsmouth, and the delay on the CIS was just accumulating by 1 or 2 Min every now and again. As trains were backing up, and the signal just off the end of the platform was still at danger, looking at preceding trains on the Live Departure Boards for Temple Meads (via National Rail website) I could estimate that the delay would be around 30 Min, and sure enough it was.
 

Class377/5

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The issues relating to information during delays tends to be that the system isn't very intelligent when displaying delay information.

An example was last Tuesday when I was on my way into Bristol City Centre from Filton Abbey Wood, there were delays at Stapleton Road and an XC Voyager which passed through 45 Min earlier hadn't yet even got to Stapleton Road, which is normally just 3-4 Min away. We were waiting for the 16.09 to Portsmouth, and the delay on the CIS was just accumulating by 1 or 2 Min every now and again. As trains were backing up, and the signal just off the end of the platform was still at danger, looking at preceding trains on the Live Departure Boards for Temple Meads (via National Rail website) I could estimate that the delay would be around 30 Min, and sure enough it was.

Your example is the classic problem with automatic systems giving out information. Because its a machine it can't work out what's going on so adds minor delays. There are upgrades in the works to systems but each TOC has their own contracts so its hard to see a system wide soluation.

SWT's system is one of the most advanced that I know of with some features that help out during major disruption, such as clearing boards and only showing what's running or has been manually put in. More TOC are getting this system.
 

tsr

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More TOC are getting this system.

They are. Southern have put it to good use recently. I will readily agree with anyone who says it is a good thing when used at stations, but manual input and some other measures in systems like these can lead to duplicate entries shown online on the Live Departure Boards. This can be confusing to some people. I've seen it happen several times.
 

Class377/5

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They are. Southern have put it to good use recently. I will readily agree with anyone who says it is a good thing when used at stations, but manual input and some other measures in systems like these can lead to duplicate entries shown online on the Live Departure Boards. This can be confusing to some people. I've seen it happen several times.

Do you mean the live departure boards on the web or at station?
 
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