Toc to Open Access

[Zontar]

Can anyone provide an overview of what you lose/gain if you move from toc to Open Access?

I know it will vary depending on which toc/operator, but I'm after a general overview or usual things.

I.e brass.....and what did you do to replace it?

Tia

 

[Leuvenn]

Open Access have less of a Union presence, so even if your place is a part of RailPen, consider it a temporary affair.

 

[357]

Open Access have less of a Union presence,

Not true.

 

[D6130]

If you move to an open access company I believe that you will lose all your travel facilities.

 

[skyhigh]

If you move to an open access company I believe that you will lose all your travel facilities.

Also not true.

At least Grand Central and Lumo offer Priv, unsure about Hull Trains but they definitely have travel facilities with other First TOCs.

 

[357]

If you move to an open access company I believe that you will lose all your travel facilities.

Also not true.

 

[Leuvenn]

Collective Bargaining in TOCs is often inherited from British Rail agreements from the 1950's-1980's. Open Access operators are brand new and so CB agreements have to be fought for by a given union.
This is not a straightforward process and can take years, just for one grade. The RMT have tried to represent Lumo workers with negligible success since 2021.

Also not true.

I'm not sure what you're intending to prove here. Without supporting information, this is just the equivalent of saying: "Nuh-uh"

 

[tiptoptaff]

LUMO has travel facilities and Union representation

GC has travel facilities and Union representation

Hull Trains has travel facilities and Union representation.

These are facts, so easily back up saying "you'll lose your facilities is false"

I appreciate that safeguarded staff will lose their protected status, but will retain TOCNE facilities. None of them are in RailPen, so you'd have it frozen.

 

[357]

I'm not sure what you're intending to prove here. Without supporting information, this is just the equivalent of saying: "Nuh-uh"

What do you want me to? PM you a photo of my PRIV? ASLEF membership card? Details of Union negotiated yearly pay rises (without industrial disputes)?

 

[Nick82]

GC get free travel on the T&W, Northern and XC.
As for Union Rep - involvement as much as any other main TOC.

Only difference I find is RAILPEN

 

[357]

GC get free travel on the T&W, Northern and XC.

Plus Priv/FIP, and also free Chiltern and London Overground - not that I suspect GC staff use those last two very much!

 

[tiptoptaff]

XC is the big one- it was a great perk when I was at ATW and still part of the Arriva Group!

Do they still get free travel on Arriva buses outside London?

 

[Leuvenn]

What do you want me to? PM you a photo of my PRIV? ASLEF membership card? Details of Union negotiated yearly pay rises (without industrial disputes)?

My brother in Christ, we have the world wide web at our finger tips. When a Union wins something, they share it somewhere. A Google search got your hear, it can get a source.

 

[tiptoptaff]

My brother in Christ, we have the world wide web at our finger tips. When a Union wins something, they share it somewhere. A Google search got your hear, it can get a source.

My brother in Christ, I can assure you all the OAs have Union representation and they definitely posted about it when they got it.

 

[D6130]

These are facts, so easily back up saying "you'll lose your facilities is false"

You will note that I used the words 'I believe'....implying that I had heard, but was not certain and am open to correction, which you and a couple of others have done admirably.

My belief was based on the the fact that (a) a friend/ex-colleague from Northern transferred to Grand Central and lost all his safeguarded national and international travel facilities and (b) another friend and ex-colleague from Northern transferred to GBRf and lost all his non-safeguarded national and international travel facilities. I think my main error was missing out the words 'national' and 'international' in my post #4.

Incidentally, do Northern staff still have travel facilities - other than safeguarded - on Grand Central and Cross Country since Northern is no longer part of the Arriva group?

 

[tiptoptaff]

You will note that I used the words 'I believe'....implying that I had heard, but was not certain and am open to correction, which you and a couple of others have done admirably.

My belief was based on the the fact that (a) a friend/ex-colleague from Northern transferred to Grand Central and lost all his safeguarded national and international travel facilities and (b) another friend and ex-colleague from Northern transferred to GBRf and lost all his non-safeguarded national and international travel facilities. I think my main error was missing out the words 'national' and 'international' in my post #4.

Incidentally, do Northern staff still have travel facilities - other than safeguarded - on Grand Central and Cross Country since Northern is no longer part of the Arriva group?

Yes, they will lose safeguarded status as I said, but retain TOCNE perks. Which is what all of us who joined after 1994 get.

And you lose everything on freight, so that's unrelated to going to Open Access

 

[Nick82]

Incidentally, do Northern staff still have travel facilities - other than safeguarded - on Grand Central and Cross Country since Northern is no longer part of the Arriva group?

I believe no longer that to be the case

 

[D6130]

Yes, they will lose safeguarded status as I said, but retain TOCNE perks. Which is what all of us who joined after 1994 get.

And you lose everything on freight, so that's unrelated to going to Open Access

Fair enough....but the OP didn't specify whether they were talking about open access passenger or freight companies (or both)!

 

[tiptoptaff]

Fair enough....but the OP didn't specify whether they were talking about open access passenger or freight companies (or both)!

I would imagine if they meant freight they'd have asked about TOC to FOC not TOC to OA

 

[357]

I believe no longer that to be the case

GC and Northern have an agreement between the two companies for free travel on each other's trains.

 

[skyhigh]

GC and Northern have an agreement between the two companies for free travel on each other's trains.

Northern also have an agreement with Lumo, though it's very limited.

 

[tiptoptaff]

GC and Northern have an agreement between the two companies for free travel on each other's trains.

Is that for leisure only or residential too?

 

[Nick82]

Northern also have an agreement with Lumo, though it's very limited.

Between Newcastle and Morpeth I believe.

 

[dan4291]

Between Newcastle and Morpeth I believe.

Correct. Lumo also have the same agreement with Cross Country.

As per the thread, the main difference from franchised (I know they're not franchised, what do we call them now?) TOC to Open Access TOC is the pension, being defined contribution rather than the old railway defined benefit pension.

 

[357]

Is that for leisure only or residential too?

For everything.

There is also an agreement with LNER but unsure of the exact details.

 

[tiptoptaff]

For everything.

There is also an agreement with LNER but unsure of the exact details.

The more you know! Cheers

 

[craigybagel]

One big difference between a TOC and Open Access (or indeed a FOC) that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet is job security. Redundancies are extremely rare at TOCs - but as the former employees of Wrexham & Shropshire, and GC's aborted Blackpool depot will testify, things are a lot less guaranteed at open access. I'm not sure of any TOCs that have had redundancies for drivers, but it's definitely happened at Open Access and on the Freight.

 

[357]

GC's aborted Blackpool depot will testify

ASLEF said at the time that none were made redundant and all found jobs elsewhere within DB/Arrival. Was this not the case?

 

[craigybagel]

ASLEF said at the time that none were made redundant and all found jobs elsewhere within DB/Arrival. Was this not the case?

I believe it was - but I would assume it was still a very stressful time for the drivers involved. And even with remaining in employment, there will be all the hassle of moving depot (presumably for the second time in a year for any qualifieds who went to GC), loss of seniority, potentially a worse commute. It's hardly an issue to take lightly.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I believe it was - but I would assume it was still a very stressful time for the drivers involved. And even with remaining in employment, there will be all the hassle of moving depot (presumably for the second time in a year for any qualifieds who went to GC), loss of seniority, potentially a worse commute. It's hardly an issue to take lightly.

Indeed. One bloke I know left GWR to go to BPN with GC, and the nearest ASLEF could get him was XC at Leeds. A second relocation in 12months