TOCs no longer using any ex-BR stock

[43096]

Given what's being spent on them, I really hope Scotrail will have their HSTs for more than 7 years!

I have seen it reported that the ScotRail HSTs are subject to a Section 54 agreement that guarantees their use through to 2030. Not sure if that is correct or not, though.

 

[Chester1]

Let’s be sensible here if we’re talking about BR stock and how long it will last.
Currently there are no diesel units ‘surplus’ in the country. New trains are being ordered and produced but won’t eliminate much more than pacers and a few sprinters, in terms of diesel units anyway. A few cascades here and there but not many classes will end up in the scrapyard

We are a long, long way off seeing all BR era stock withdrawn. Possibly 2/3 decades.

The 158s will likely be the last sprinters in service on a large scale. They will be used on the Cambrian until at least the end of the next 15 year W&B franchise because of the cost of installing ETMS on other units. They are a good choice for long distance rural routes e.g. the Cumbrian coast, far north line etc. I would guess the SWR will get some sort of 195 derivative during its next franchise (starting 2024) but the 158 and 159s cascaded rather than scrapped. 153s will likely be scrapped rather than upgraded by 2020. 150s, 155s and 156s will probably last until late 2020s , which is too long. The 158s probably mean W&B, Northern and Scottish franchise won't have fleets of post BR units until the 2030s. Thats not a bad thing if its only the better units.

 

[edwin_m]

The 158s will likely be the last sprinters in service on a large scale. They will be used on the Cambrian until at least the end of the next 15 year W&B franchise because of the cost of installing ETMS on other units. They are a good choice for long distance rural routes e.g. the Cumbrian coast, far north line etc. I would guess the SWR will get some sort of 195 derivative during its next franchise (starting 2024) but the 158 and 159s cascaded rather than scrapped. 153s will likely be scrapped rather than upgraded by 2020. 150s, 155s and 156s will probably last until late 2020s , which is too long. The 158s probably mean W&B, Northern and Scottish franchise won't have fleets of post BR units until the 2030s. Thats not a bad thing if its only the better units.

However ERTMS is supposed to be fitted on other routes too, and other classes of unit will also have to be fitted. Avoiding running the older classes, which aren't able to be fitted easly, on routes where ERTMS is mandatory could become quite an important factor in determining which units survive and where. The 158s do at least have a design for ERTMS fitment that can be replicated on other operators' fleets.

 

[Rail Blues]

Were c2c the first to rid themselves of BR era stock or did Virgin WC beat them to it?

 

[Domh245]

Were c2c the first to rid themselves of BR era stock or did Virgin WC beat them to it?

I believe that c2c were the first. Wikipedia says that c2c finished replacing all of their previous stock by 2003, but VTWC ran their last loco-hauled train in 2005.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Virgin were regularly using Mk IIIs a long time after 2005. Right up until 2010 or 2011 the Pretendolino set was in almost daily use and they hired in a Cargo-D set as well. They didn't stop using the Pretendolino until about 2014.

 

[LA50041]

Virgin were regularly using Mk IIIs a long time after 2005. Right up until 2010 or 2011 the Pretendolino set was in almost daily use and they hired in a Cargo-D set as well. They didn't stop using the Pretendolino until about 2014.

The Pretendolino was certainly still running in late September 2014 as I had it on my ALR around then

 

[DanTrain]

Notwithstanding bits of Mk3 and old HST still hanging around, I suspect the 158s and 165/6s will be around for a good while yet. Northern, W&B, Scotrail northern routes and Great Western look the most likely to be around.

I imagine EMT will, as suggested above, do a wholescale replacement of their fleet, seeing cascades of 170s or similar look unlikely.

I think we all know Northern will end up with whatever no-one else wants, as we can see by the pacers being replaced largely with 158s and 170s from Scotrail.

The south western branch lines look likely to retain their 150s for a good while yet too, not much need to replace them for a good time, they seem to be doing ok.

It also wouldn’t suprise me if an open access operator got hold of some old HSTs for tuppence and refurbished them, so it may in the end be HSTs that last the longest (although I wouldn’t be suprised if the Mk3s are replaced 1st).

 

[43096]

I think we all know Northern will end up with whatever no-one else wants, as we can see by the pacers being replaced largely with 158s and 170s from Scotrail.

So 8 x 158 and 16 x 170 “largely” replaces the Pacers, does it? The 55 brand new DMUs must be cast-offs then.....

 

[Chester1]

So 8 x 158 and 16 x 170 “largely” replaces the Pacers, does it? The 55 brand new DMUs must be cast-offs then.....

I have been saying for ages that while that once the (genuinely bad) pacers are gone, some of my fellow northerners will find other things to have a sense of grievance about. The refurbished 150s are a decent base line for commuter DMUs but will replace the pacers as the trains to complain about.

 

[D365]

People are always going to complain. No doubt there’ll be something about the seating when the CAF stock comes in.

 

[Chester1]

People are always going to complain. No doubt there’ll be something about the seating when the CAF stock comes in.

I know but the Northern victimhood thing especially irritates me. There have been times when the region has been hard done by but it has become an outlook / approach to life. I don't share it. I have noticed Manchester getting a bit more stick these days because it has the nerve to reinvent itself and compete with the south. Back to trains, the refurbished 150s are fine for short journeys, they are a clear improvement on the pacers as the worst units. The first photos of the refurbished 158s should be interesting.

 

[Failed Unit]

I know but the Northern victimhood thing especially irritates me. There have been times when the region has been hard done by but it has become an outlook / approach to life. I don't share it. I have noticed Manchester getting a bit more stick these days because it has the nerve to reinvent itself and compete with the south. Back to trains, the refurbished 150s are fine for short journeys, they are a clear improvement on the pacers as the worst units. The first photos of the refurbished 158s should be interesting.

Must admit I was surprised by the some of comments. In terms of before / after privatisation i think the East Midlands has done worse.

If you look at the improvements Manchester and Leeds have had to rail they can’t really complain. Newcastle less so but Sunderland has done nicely with GC as as Hull with HT. Liverpool lags behind a bit.

The EMT local fleet is all ex-BR, northern has the pacers but also some improvements on the way.

Although until recently the highest average age of a fleet was actually GTR great northern.

 

[47802]

Must admit I was surprised by the some of comments. In terms of before / after privatisation i think the East Midlands has done worse.

If you look at the improvements Manchester and Leeds have had to rail they can’t really complain. Newcastle less so but Sunderland has done nicely with GC as as Hull with HT. Liverpool lags behind a bit.

The EMT local fleet is all ex-BR, northern has the pacers but also some improvements on the way.

Although until recently the highest average age of a fleet was actually GTR great northern.

I would have to disagree I think we were petty hard done by in the previous Northern Franchises but I think what is proposed for the current franchise will be an acceptable improvement once its complete which is still nearly 2 years away.

I think EMT regional services will be in line for some significant improvements but will more than likely have to wait until the franchise is re-let for these to happen.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would have to disagree I think we were petty hard done by in the previous Northern Franchises but I think what is proposed for the current franchise will be an acceptable improvement once its complete which is still nearly 2 years away.

I think EMT regional services will be in line for some significant improvements but will more than likely have to wait until the franchise is re-let for these to happen.

Northern are sorted. Stock on order etc.
EMT - nobody knows. But once the existing round of cascades is done not much left either. They could get all the 15x replaced but I doubt it. They could create clock face timetables. We can hope.

But unless you have insider info the regional routes don’t look to get any improvements.

 

[47802]

Northern are sorted. Stock on order etc.
EMT - nobody knows. But once the existing round of cascades is done not much left either. They could get all the 15x replaced but I doubt it. They could create clock face timetables. We can hope.

But unless you have insider info the regional routes don’t look to get any improvements.

I have no inside information regarding EMT but how do you know there wont be significant improvements to the Regional routes, on the revised franchise timetable for EMT the ITT wont even be released until April now will it?

 

[Failed Unit]

I have no inside information regarding EMT but how do you know there wont be significant improvements to the Regional routes, on the revised franchise timetable for EMT the ITT wont even be released until April now will it?

I don’t. But considering the areas the serve it is hardly going to be a priority considering the service is actually worse on many of them since privatisation and the central trains butchering of the service towards the end of the franchise.

Anyway will leave it there sure we have an EMT thread somewhere

My point remains northern has a committed improvement plan in place. EMT doesn’t and won’t for a while yet.

 

[DanTrain]

I have been saying for ages that while that once the (genuinely bad) pacers are gone, some of my fellow northerners will find other things to have a sense of grievance about. The refurbished 150s are a decent base line for commuter DMUs but will replace the pacers as the trains to complain about.

That is a fair point, the refurbed 150s are rather nice. Would love to see some more doubled up, but I know that's not going to happen.

What are W&B replacing their pacers with, are they getting any new stock or is it just cascades (185s for example). Either way, they won't be doing too badly. Looks like EMT who may fare the worst for the time being, although forced disposal of 153s will help.

 

[whhistle]

Said it before but anything pre Class 16x isn't really that great.
The Welsh 158s are pretty nice but the unit looks old. Modern trains these days look a little nicer, and company image goes a long way.

Anyone bidding on the East Midlands franchise would be foolish not to factor in a whole fleet replacement; bio-modes for the Meridians/HSTs, 195s (or similar) for everything else.
Whether First win the franchise and acquire the bio-mode trains from Great Western, who will then get pure electric versions, one wonders...

 

[Mordac]

Said it before but anything pre Class 16x isn't really that great.
The Welsh 158s are pretty nice but the unit looks old. Modern trains these days look a little nicer, and company image goes a long way.

Anyone bidding on the East Midlands franchise would be foolish not to factor in a whole fleet replacement; bio-modes for the Meridians/HSTs, 195s (or similar) for everything else.
Whether First win the franchise and acquire the bio-mode trains from Great Western, who will then get pure electric versions, one wonders...

Are those running on bionic duckweed?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Has London Overground been mentioned? Only using Class 172 & Class 378.

 

[DanTrain]

Has London Overground been mentioned? Only using Class 172 & Class 378.

It was BR-free, but it's picked up a load of 315s from the ex-GA routes. It will be again before long when these are replaced though.

Said it before but anything pre Class 16x isn't really that great.
The Welsh 158s are pretty nice but the unit looks old. Modern trains these days look a little nicer, and company image goes a long way.

But surely trains aren't just replaced on how good they look. The 150/156/158s are all doing pretty well, and I don't see any rush to scrap them, why should we then there's not problem. Also, I disagree with the above point, a 158 is much nicer to look at than a 166 or a 175.

 

[D365]

It was BR-free, but it's picked up a load of 315s from the ex-GA routes. It will be again before long when these are replaced though.

Aside from the one/two being retained for 'Rominster'.

 

[superalbs]

Said it before but anything pre Class 16x isn't really that great.
The Welsh 158s are pretty nice but the unit looks old. Modern trains these days look a little nicer, and company image goes a long way.

You say that, but non-train fan commuters on the Exeter-Axminster route were extremely surprised to find out that the Class 158/159s were built in the early nineties! I don't think passengers can tell the difference most of the time, as long as they have aircon, they probably think it's good-as-new.

 

[Rail Blues]

I have been saying for ages that while that once the (genuinely bad) pacers are gone, some of my fellow northerners will find other things to have a sense of grievance about. The refurbished 150s are a decent base line for commuter DMUs but will replace the pacers as the trains to complain about.

It isn't just about the age of the stock. A 156/158 can be a perfectly acceptable way to travel, but Northern didn't maintain their stock particularly well. Busted and worn to the threads seating, abandoned copies of the Metro strewn across the carriage and a general film of grime was the norm under the previous franchise holder. Not a lot seems to have changed so far under the current franchise.

 

[Chester1]

It isn't just about the age of the stock. A 156/158 can be a perfectly acceptable way to travel, but Northern didn't maintain their stock particularly well. Busted and worn to the threads seating, abandoned copies of the Metro strewn across the carriage and a general film of grime was the norm under the previous franchise holder. Not a lot seems to have changed so far under the current franchise.

Not much has changed apart from the refurbishment program!

 

[Silver Cobra]

Has London Overground been mentioned? Only using Class 172 & Class 378.

It was BR-free, but it's picked up a load of 315s from the ex-GA routes. It will be again before long when these are replaced though.

London Overground also use 317s on some former GA routes, as well as Romford-Upminster.

 

[Rail Blues]

Not much has changed apart from the refurbishment program!

Acknowledging that it is a work in progress, it hardly screams quality and far below the promise of 'as new' when they won the franchise. It all seems to be done on the cheap.

 

[Chester1]

Acknowledging that it is a work in progress, it hardly screams quality and far below the promise of 'as new' when they won the franchise. It all seems to be done on the cheap.

I am too young to remember them new but I am not sure what else they could have done. The carpet and paneling has been mostly replaced, the lighting improved and the toilets upgraded. The seat covers have been changed and replacing seats would likely mean using ones less comfortable because of safety regs. Ultimately they are old units that have been upgraded for probably a final decade or less of use. They are replacing 142s as the worst units in the fleet and are significantly better than them.

The alternative would have been a big order of 195s. There is a high chance that when the 150s are replaced in the next franchise, battery EMUs will have enough range to be viable on most Northern routes. The quality of the 158 upgrades are more important because they are likely to be the stocking running long rural services across the UK until they are unserviceable.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With regard to Northern "victimhood", I agree that it's a shame we tykes haven't just accepted our lot like we used to... or like how the Thameslink gentlefolk have welcomed the 700s with open arms and barely a peep of discontent.