TOCs with Sundays in Working Week (Drivers / Guards)

[Horizon22]

Hi all,

We get this question quite a lot and there is often confusion about it. Therefore I thought it would be best to make a thread on it to which can be referred to in future. A very brief discussion as provided by @whoosh is below

• Outside, Voluntary (NO): Sundays are overtime outside the working week. You can say you are 'not available' to work Sunday overtime with so many (normally 7) days notice to the Roster Clerk.
• Outside, Committed (COMMITTED): Sundays are overtime outside the working week, but you have a commitment to work or can give them away to other Drivers. It's enforced overtime if you can't get rid of them.
• Inside (YES): A normal working day and is therefore inside (part of) the working week.

If you are contributing please do so in the following format for ease:

TOC Name/Depot
YES/NO/COMMITTED/Depot/Link Specific (please provide details)

You can contribute here, or feel free to PM me. This is not an exhaustive list.

• Avanti West Coast
  • Driver: COMMITTED
  • Guard: YES
• C2C
  • Driver: YES
• Chiltern
  • Driver: NO
  • Guard
• Cross Country
  • Driver: COMMITTED
  • Guard
• East Midlands Railway
  • Driver: Majority - YES; some ex-BR - NO
  • Guard
• Eurostar
  • Driver: YES
  • Guard
• Gatwick Express
  • Driver: COMMITTED (+20%)
  • Guard
• Grand Central
  • Driver: YES
  • Guard: YES
• Greater Anglia
  • Driver: COMMITTED
  • Guard: COMMITTED
• Great Northern
  • Driver: COMMITTED (limited number per year)
• GWR
  • Driver: HSS - NO (not universal); LTV/West - COMMITTED
  • Guard: NO
• Heathrow Express
  • Driver: YES
• Hull Trains
  • Driver: YES
  • Guard
• London North Eastern Railway (LNER)
  • Driver: YES
  • Guard: YES
• London Overground
  • Driver: Majority - YES; Chingford - NO
• Lumo
  • Driver:
• Merseyrail
  • Driver: COMMITTED (+20%)
  • Guard: COMMITTED
• MTR Crossrail
  • Driver: YES
• Northern
  • Driver: East - MIXED; West - COMMITTED
  • Guard: East - COMMITTED; West - NO
• Northern Irish Railways
  • Driver:
  • Guard:
• Scotrail
  • Driver: COMMITTED
  • Guard:
• Southeastern
  • Driver: YES
  • Guard:
• Southern
  • Driver: COMMITTED (+20%)
  • Guard:
• South Western Railway (SWR)
  • Driver: YES
  • Guard:
• Thameslink
  • Driver: NO
• Transpennine Express (TPE)
  • Driver: YES
  • Guard: COMMITTED
• Transport for Wales (TfW)
  • Driver: Majority - COMMITTED; some ex-BR - NO
  • Guard: Majority - COMMITTED; some ex-BR - NO
• West Midlands Trains (WMT)
  • Driver: NO
  • Guard

 

[skyhigh]

Northern - East Side is:
Drivers - in the working week
Guards - outside the working week but is committed overtime (I.e. if booked to work it in the link and you can't find someone to work it for you, you have to work it)

 

[martin2345uk]

I don't even completely understand what it means when people talk about Sundays being inside/outside... can someone offer a really basic explanation??

 

[Horizon22]

I don't even completely understand what it means when people talk about Sundays being inside/outside... can someone offer a really basic explanation??

Essentially some TOCs have Sundays "inside" the roster. This means Sunday is treated like any other day - if you are booked to work, you are booked to work. Some TOCs have "committed sundays" - if you are booked to work you can take it off, so long as you can find approriate cover. And for some it is "outside", it often relies on some form of overtime (committed or not and often a higher rate), but are much easier to take off if you don't want to work them.

 

[D9006]

I don't even completely understand what it means when people talk about Sundays being inside/outside... can someone offer a really basic explanation??

It’s to do with the working week, as the work is 7 days a week and staff work any 5 out of 7 days so that’s inside , now in some places it’s 5 out of 6, this being any 5 days from Monday to Saturday so Sunday work being outside but is allocated as a RDW, not sure if any work 5 out of 5, which means staff only rostered to work Monday to Friday

 

[O L Leigh]

It's not a binary yes/no question.

 

[Horizon22]

It's not a binary yes/no question.

I have added 4 options.

 

[SWR_DRIVER]

SWR:
YES for both Drivers and Guards.

 

[Tomnick]

EMR

• Driver: YES (for all new starters including qualified drivers, plus existing mainline drivers who have chosen to opt-in)

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Essentially some TOCs have Sundays "inside" the roster. This means Sunday is treated like any other day - if you are booked to work, you are booked to work. Some TOCs have "committed sundays" - if you are booked to work you can take it off, so long as you can find approriate cover. And for some it is "outside", it often relies on some form of overtime (committed or not and often a higher rate), but are much easier to take off if you don't want to work them.

Although in some TOCs 'outside' the 'working week', in my experience those Sundays would still be in the roster, but with the option to not work or find somebody else to take one's rostered Sunday depending on the arrangements at the specific TOC, although I accept this may not apply to all TOCs where Sunday is 'outside', but if not in the roster it would surely be a case of looking for volunteers every week, whilst 'inside' the roster an individual can see weeks ahead whether they have a booked Sunday which they may or may not want to work. .

 

[wobman]

TFW
DRIVERS Sundays are committed overtime, some are excluded due to being protected status ex br that have never done Sundays. Different depots have different ratios from 1 in 3 to 1 in 6, so it's varied throughout the toc. Most Tfw drivers work a 4 day week but some still remain on the historic 5 day week conditions, it's all very complicated to resolve if Sundays are going to be a working day.

 

[whoosh]

There are three types of Sunday working in the railway industry.


Outside, Voluntary - Sundays are overtime outside the working week. You can say you are 'not available' to work Sunday overtime with so many (normally 7) days notice to the Roster Clerk.

Outside, Committed - Sundays are overtime outside the working week, but you have a commitment to work rostered Sundays. Can give them away to other Drivers.
It's enforced overtime if you can't get rid of them.

Inside - a normal day, inside (part of) the working week.

This list is for Drivers. Open to corrections and more information, but the following is what I understand are the arrangements at the various companies:

Abellio Greater Anglia = Outside, Committed.

Abellio Scotrail = Outside, Committed. Minimum payment and a signing on fee for a Sunday.

Arriva Rail London = Inside. Maximum rostered 26 Sundays per year.*

Avanti West Coast = Outside, Committed.

c2c = Inside

Chiltern Railways = Outside, not sure if committed or voluntary. Can anyone help?

Colas Infrastructure Monitoring = Normal working week is Monday to Friday. Saturdays and Sundays are Rest Days.

CrossCountry = Outside, Committed.

DB Cargo = Inside.

Direct Rail Services = Inside.

East Midlands Railway = Inside (Outside, Voluntary for those who were with the company before 2016 and chose to remain 'opted-out'. Time+50% for those 'opted out' if they work a Sunday)

Eurostar = Inside. (Quite a high number here - about 2 in 3 Sundays worked!)

First Hull Trains = Inside

First Tram Operations = Inside

First Transpennine Express = Inside

Freightliner Heavy Haul = Inside

Freightliner Intermodal = Inside

GB Railfreight = Inside

Grand Central = Inside

Great Western Railway = Outside, Committed.
There is quite a degree of harmonisation taking place between what used to be High Speed Services, London Thames Valley, and Wales & West former franchises. I think they are all committed, but may be voluntary for some still. Can anyone help?
Heathrow Express = Inside

GTR Southern and Gatwick Express = Outside, Committed. Pays time +20%.

GTR ThamesLink / Great Northern = Outside, with Limited Commitment. Must commit to either 8 or 12 Sundays per year (depending on start date), but can give away to other Drivers. All other Sundays in the roster are voluntary and can be 'not available' with 7 days notice. Sundays here pay Time+55% so combined with an element of commitment sees very little traincrew shortages on Sundays now.

Island Line = Inside

London North Eastern Railway = Inside.

London Underground = Inside

Merseyrail = Outside, Committed. Pays time+20%.

MTR Elizabeth Line = Inside. Maximum 21 rostered Sundays per year.*

North East Metro Operations Ltd = Inside

Northern Trains Ltd = East: Inside. West: Outside, Voluntary, but I believe harmonisation is taking place to bring the West inside. Anyone got more info?

Southeastern = Inside

South Western Railway = Inside

Transport for Wales Rail Services = Outside, Committed.

Tube Lines Limited = Inside.

West Midlands Trains = Outside, Voluntary.



*Crossrail (MTR Elizabeth Line) sounds better at 21 rostered Sundays than the 26 at Arriva Trains London, but Annual Leave Weeks at MTR are part of the base roster (together with some rest days gives 8 weeks on 2 weeks off). The number of Sundays actually worked would probably even out after annual leave (in the usual separate annual leave week blocks) at ATL.

 

[class ep-09]

There are three types of Sunday working in the railway industry.


Outside, Voluntary - Sundays are overtime outside the working week. You can say you are 'not available' to work Sunday overtime with so many (normally 7) days notice to the Roster Clerk.

Outside, Committed - Sundays are overtime outside the working week, but you have a commitment to work rostered Sundays. Can give them away to other Drivers.
It's enforced overtime if you can't get rid of them.

Inside - a normal day, inside (part of) the working week.

This list is for Drivers. Open to corrections and more information, but the following is what I understand are the arrangements at the various companies:

Abellio Greater Anglia = Outside, Committed.

Abellio Scotrail = Outside, Committed. Minimum payment and a signing on fee for a Sunday.

Arriva Rail London = Inside. Maximum rostered 26 Sundays per year.*

Avanti West Coast = Outside, Committed.

c2c = Inside

Chiltern Railways = Outside, not sure if committed or voluntary. Can anyone help?

Colas Infrastructure Monitoring = Normal working week is Monday to Friday. Saturdays and Sundays are Rest Days.

CrossCountry = Outside, Committed.

DB Cargo = Inside.

Direct Rail Services = Inside.

East Midlands Railway = Inside (Outside, Voluntary for those who were with the company before 2016 and chose to remain 'opted-out'. Time+50% for those 'opted out' if they work a Sunday)

Eurostar = Inside. (Quite a high number here - about 2 in 3 Sundays worked!)

First Hull Trains = Inside

First Tram Operations = Inside

First Transpennine Express = Inside

Freightliner Heavy Haul = Inside

Freightliner Intermodal = Inside

GB Railfreight = Inside

Grand Central = Inside

Great Western Railway = Outside, Committed.
There is quite a degree of harmonisation taking place between what used to be High Speed Services, London Thames Valley, and Wales & West former franchises. I think they are all committed, but may be voluntary for some still. Can anyone help?
Heathrow Express = Inside

GTR Southern and Gatwick Express = Outside, Committed. Pays time +20%.

GTR ThamesLink / Great Northern = Outside, with Limited Commitment. Must commit to either 8 or 12 Sundays per year (depending on start date), but can give away to other Drivers. All other Sundays in the roster are voluntary and can be 'not available' with 7 days notice. Sundays here pay Time+55% so combined with an element of commitment sees very little traincrew shortages on Sundays now.

Island Line = Inside

London North Eastern Railway = Inside.

London Underground = Inside

Merseyrail = Outside, Committed. Pays time+20%.

MTR Elizabeth Line = Inside. Maximum 21 rostered Sundays per year.*

North East Metro Operations Ltd = Inside

Northern Trains Ltd = East: Inside. West: Outside, Voluntary, but I believe harmonisation is taking place to bring the West inside. Anyone got more info?

Southeastern = Inside

South Western Railway = Inside

Transport for Wales Rail Services = Outside, Committed.

Tube Lines Limited = Inside.

West Midlands Trains = Outside, Voluntary.



*Crossrail (MTR Elizabeth Line) sounds better at 21 rostered Sundays than the 26 at Arriva Trains London, but Annual Leave Weeks at MTR are part of the base roster (together with some rest days gives 8 weeks on 2 weeks off). The number of Sundays actually worked would probably even out after annual leave (in the usual seperate annual leave week blocks) at ATL.

GWR
HSS drivers - outside , not committed, rate 1 + 25% , minimum pay 8hrs .

GWR drivers ( ex LTV + Wessex after harmonisation ) - outside , committed but I think there may be some exceptions based on depots ie: Paddington.
Hstorically you could opt out with 5 days notice but in other LTV depots you could not .
Perhaps it still stands .

I also think rates is 1+25% for the hours worked ( no minimum hours of pay ).

 

[godfreycomplex]

NR Signallers/Controllers/Crossing Keepers/MOMs (the 99% of these roles that are open on Sundays) - committed

 

[SCDR_WMR]

WMT is slightly annoying in that older contracts are non-commited, newer contracts ~2016 onwards are committed. All at 1+50% rate

 

[dk1]

Greater Anglia drivers are on three separate contracts :- Anglia Railways, Great Eastern & WAGN. Guards are just two Anglia Railways & Great Eastern. It’s committed Sundays on the Anglia side but can’t fully speak for the others on how they operate but afaik none have Sunday in the working week.

 

[Teddyward]

Greater Anglia drivers are on three separate contracts :- Anglia Railways, Great Eastern & WAGN. Guards are just two Anglia Railways & Great Eastern. It’s committed Sundays on the Anglia side but can’t fully speak for the others on how they operate but afaik none have Sunday in the working week.

GE & west are committed also.
dunno about guards on the GE but I presume it’s the same.
sundays are 125% on GE

 

[whoosh]

WMT is slightly annoying in that older contracts are non-commited, newer contracts ~2016 onwards are committed. All at 1+50% rate

Is that Drivers or Guards (or both!)?

EMR have two grades of Guards:

Train Managers on the Intercity trains (former Midland Mainline) are Outside, Committed.

Similar to above post, Senior Conductors on local trains (former Central Trains) are Outside, Committed for those who started after a certain date (can't remember what year), and Outside, Voluntary for those who started before that.

 

[geoffk]

It’s to do with the working week, as the work is 7 days a week and staff work any 5 out of 7 days so that’s inside , now in some places it’s 5 out of 6, this being any 5 days from Monday to Saturday so Sunday work being outside but is allocated as a RDW, not sure if any work 5 out of 5, which means staff only rostered to work Monday to Friday

Don't some work 4 (long) days in 6 or 7? A lot more complicated than I thought.

 

[172007]

WMT is slightly annoying in that older contracts are non-commited, newer contracts ~2016 onwards are committed. All at 1+50% rate

The newer contracts are somewhat a grey area. Apparently they are unenforceable and quite a few conductors will throw them in even though they are committed. I stand to be corrected though.

 

[dk1]

GE & west are committed also.
dunno about guards on the GE but I presume it’s the same.
sundays are 125% on GE

I’m terrible at rates. I think we get T+10% on Anglia Railways but I’m not totally sure. Know there’s some enhancement. Think Boxing Day night this year is double time & two days in lieu here.

 

[Economist]

Hi all,

We get this question quite a lot and there is often confusion about it. Therefore I thought it would be best to make a thread on it to which can be referred to in future. If you are contributing please do so in the following format for ease:



You can contribute here, or feel free to PM me.

Where Sundays are outside, can the information on the rate please be added too? I know quite a few posters have provided it so it could be handy.

 

[Horizon22]

Where Sundays are outside, can the information on the rate please be added too? I know quite a few posters have provided it so it could be handy.

I will try - I aim to add all this data later today or tomorrow (14th Dec) when I get a moment.

 

[43066]

EMR drivers are mostly Sundays inside - there’s a separate link for grandfathered Sundays outside (when Sundays were brought inside drivers were offered the chance to move to Sundays inside or remain with them outside). All new drivers are Sundays inside by default.

Guards are still Sundays outside at all locations AFAIK.

 

[tiptoptaff]

GWR
HSS drivers - outside , not committed, rate 1 + 25% , minimum pay 8hrs .

GWR drivers ( ex LTV + Wessex after harmonisation ) - outside , committed but I think there may be some exceptions based on depots ie: Paddington.
Hstorically you could opt out with 5 days notice but in other LTV depots you could not .
Perhaps it still stands .

I also think rates is 1+25% for the hours worked ( no minimum hours of pay ).

GWR's GWR drivers are also 8hrs minimum payment

 

[dk1]

GWR's GWR drivers are also 8hrs minimum payment

Yes same here in the east. Eight hours minimum for Sundays & Rest Day Working.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Chiltern (drivers) is outside and voluntary. It’s assumed you are happy to volunteer unless you specifically make yourself unavailable.

 

[T-Karmel]

Arriva Rail London - inside for all depots but Chingford where it's outside.

 

[Horizon22]

Can we please keep the discussion on topic with regards to TOCs / depots and their Sunday contracts.

Arriva Rail London - inside for all depots but Chingford where it's outside.

Is it committed Sundays for Chingford?

 

[jamesst]

Both Merseyrail drivers and guards are committed, nothing extra for the guards.