TOCs with Sundays in Working Week (Drivers / Guards)

[nb2001uk]

There are three types of Sunday working in the railway industry.


Outside, Voluntary - Sundays are overtime outside the working week. You can say you are 'not available' to work Sunday overtime with so many (normally 7) days notice to the Roster Clerk.

Outside, Committed - Sundays are overtime outside the working week, but you have a commitment to work rostered Sundays. Can give them away to other Drivers.
It's enforced overtime if you can't get rid of them.

Inside - a normal day, inside (part of) the working week.

This list is for Drivers. Open to corrections and more information, but the following is what I understand are the arrangements at the various companies:

Abellio Greater Anglia = Outside, Committed.

Abellio Scotrail = Outside, Committed. Minimum payment and a signing on fee for a Sunday.

Arriva Rail London = Inside. Maximum rostered 26 Sundays per year.*

Avanti West Coast = Outside, Committed.

c2c = Inside

Chiltern Railways = Outside, not sure if committed or voluntary. Can anyone help?

Colas Infrastructure Monitoring = Normal working week is Monday to Friday. Saturdays and Sundays are Rest Days.

CrossCountry = Outside, Committed.

DB Cargo = Inside.

Direct Rail Services = Inside.

East Midlands Railway = Inside (Outside, Voluntary for those who were with the company before 2016 and chose to remain 'opted-out'. Time+50% for those 'opted out' if they work a Sunday)

Eurostar = Inside. (Quite a high number here - about 2 in 3 Sundays worked!)

First Hull Trains = Inside

First Tram Operations = Inside

First Transpennine Express = Inside

Freightliner Heavy Haul = Inside

Freightliner Intermodal = Inside

GB Railfreight = Inside

Grand Central = Inside

Great Western Railway = Outside, Committed.
There is quite a degree of harmonisation taking place between what used to be High Speed Services, London Thames Valley, and Wales & West former franchises. I think they are all committed, but may be voluntary for some still. Can anyone help?
Heathrow Express = Inside

GTR Southern and Gatwick Express = Outside, Committed. Pays time +20%.

GTR ThamesLink / Great Northern = Outside, with Limited Commitment. Must commit to either 8 or 12 Sundays per year (depending on start date), but can give away to other Drivers. All other Sundays in the roster are voluntary and can be 'not available' with 7 days notice. Sundays here pay Time+55% so combined with an element of commitment sees very little traincrew shortages on Sundays now.

Island Line = Inside

London North Eastern Railway = Inside.

London Underground = Inside

Merseyrail = Outside, Committed. Pays time+20%.

MTR Elizabeth Line = Inside. Maximum 21 rostered Sundays per year.*

North East Metro Operations Ltd = Inside

Northern Trains Ltd = East: Inside. West: Outside, Voluntary, but I believe harmonisation is taking place to bring the West inside. Anyone got more info?

Southeastern = Inside

South Western Railway = Inside

Transport for Wales Rail Services = Outside, Committed.

Tube Lines Limited = Inside.

West Midlands Trains = Outside, Voluntary.



*Crossrail (MTR Elizabeth Line) sounds better at 21 rostered Sundays than the 26 at Arriva Trains London, but Annual Leave Weeks at MTR are part of the base roster (together with some rest days gives 8 weeks on 2 weeks off). The number of Sundays actually worked would probably even out after annual leave (in the usual separate annual leave week blocks) at ATL.

please can you tell me what it means by 'time+(x)%?'

Thanks

 

[T-Karmel]

Is it committed Sundays for Chingford?

It is not committed.

 

[Watershed]

please can you tell me what it means by 'time+(x)%?'

Thanks

'Time' would mean getting overtime paid at the equivalent rate to your normal pay (e.g. if you have a salary of £30k and a nominal 35 hours a week contract, £16.48 an hour). 'Time +25%' would be 125% of £16.48, so £20.60 an hour.

 

[nb2001uk]

'Time' would mean getting overtime paid at the equivalent rate to your normal pay (e.g. if you have a salary of £30k and a nominal 35 hours a week contract, £16.48 an hour). 'Time +25%' would be 125% of £16.48, so £20.60 an hour.

Thank you for explaining

 

[whoosh]

Arriva Rail London - inside for all depots but Chingford where it's outside.

Thankyou, I forgot about Chingford who still retain a lot of West Anglia Great Northern conditions.

 

[Ytfc117]

GWR Guards no commitment

 

[craigybagel]

TfW guards are same as drivers - committed for all except a handful of ex BR guards who have no Sundays.

 

[beany]

GWR Paddington drivers is definitely Sundays outside not committed.

 

[SRH]

Well done to the person who put this together, great work!!

However, id say to the new up and coming future drivers. Absolutely do not worry about this at all. Pass your tests, have great interviews and get in where you can. The key is precious!!! Worry about pros and cons later down the line

 

[tiptoptaff]

GWR Paddington drivers is definitely Sundays outside not committed.

Think, if you reread the big green book, that is incorrect

 

[OneThirtyEight]

Merseyrail Guards, committed.

 

[Efini92]

Technically northern drivers on the west are still committed. There has been an agreement to put them in the working week but it’s impossible to implement.

 

[1867Blue]

Deleted.

missed a previous post.

 

[ThePeakNed]

Newton Heath depot drivers have Sundays outside, however appear on the roster twice every 3 weeks (one Sunday day, one Sunday night).

 

[43066]

Newton Heath depot drivers have Sundays outside, however appear on the roster twice every 3 weeks (one Sunday day, one Sunday night).

Presumably you can opt out of working them by giving a certain amount of notice?

 

[wobman]

Presumably you can opt out of working them by giving a certain amount of notice?

Most tocs say you have to arrange your own cover if you don't want to work a booked Sunday, that's the problem with committed Sundays I've found.
Luckily we can use 1 golden ticket a year if you can't get cover arranged but you have to submit the ticket a month before hand !

 

[Class2ldn]

Not at TL, we can chuck them in with 7 days notice

 

[dk1]

Presumably you can opt out of working them by giving a certain amount of notice?

Doesn’t matter with us if you give 6 months or 6 days notice, you can still be declined. Once the roster is posted however by the roster clerk on a Thursday, the Duty Traincrew Managers will do their utmost to get it covered for us & to keep everybody happy.

 

[Boydy]

For TOCS with Sundays as part of the working week, what does the shift pattern look like for drivers/guards on a 4 day week? How many Sundays do you work?

 

[Grannyjoans]

Hi all,

• Outside, Voluntary (NO): Sundays are overtime outside the working week. You can say you are 'not available' to work Sunday overtime with so many (normally 7) days notice to the Roster Clerk.
• Outside, Committed (COMMITTED): Sundays are overtime outside the working week, but you have a commitment to work or can give them away to other Drivers. It's enforced overtime if you can't get rid of them.

• Northern
  • Driver: YES
  • Guard: East - COMMITTED; West - NO

Sunday's for Northern are Outside, COMMITTED for West Drivers. You can give 5 years notice and still have to do it if there is no cover.

Newton Heath depot drivers have Sundays outside, however appear on the roster twice every 3 weeks (one Sunday day, one Sunday night).

Yes it is quite notable how many Sunday's there are in the Newton Heath Depot Driver roster. At least one every 2 weeks.

I thought the 1 Sunday every 6 weeks was bad enough on the Mainline rosters. It can really amount to some considerable forced overtime, often unwanted. Are the Sunday's for Depot Drivers COMMITTED as they are on Mainline ?

The promise of a 35 hour week in the job description is misleading.

It's considerably higher with committed Sundays outside.

 

[fulmar]

Sunday's for Northern are Outside, COMMITTED for West Drivers.

Except for ex TPE drivers who were transferred to Northern in 2016 and are still on their TPE terms and conditions. Their Sundays are inside the working week as are any new starters who join the ex TPE links.

 

[wobman]

At tfw the committed Sundays ratio is depot dependent, my depot us 1 in 3 forced overtime but the rural depots it's 1 in 6 ! But they got the same pay deal as us, lots of new starters don't understand they will be working 9.30hr shifts on Sundays every 3 weeks.....

 

[SCDR_WMR]

At tfw the committed Sundays ratio is depot dependent, my depot us 1 in 3 forced overtime but the rural depots it's 1 in 6 ! But they got the same pay deal as us, lots of new starters don't understand they will be working 9.30hr shifts on Sundays every 3 weeks.....

It does make me wonder sometimes how they get away with such ambiguity in contracts.
Mine states 'commited Sundays' but doesn't explicitly state how many so theoretically I've signed up for every Sunday and a few Sundays at the same time.

For WMR/LNWR it varies a bit per depot but usually it's every 4-5 weeks, sometimes there's a shorter gap but rarely from what I've seen

 

[Crazyb]

Some companies may have caps on their Sundays, so if you had a roster, say of 52 weeks, you could have 20 Sundays max.

MTR Crossrail are capped at 21 per year, I think you will find. Sundays are also inside the working week.

 

[Grannyjoans]

At tfw the committed Sundays ratio is depot dependent, my depot us 1 in 3 forced overtime but the rural depots it's 1 in 6 ! But they got the same pay deal as us, lots of new starters don't understand they will be working 9.30hr shifts on Sundays every 3 weeks.....

It does make me wonder sometimes how they get away with such ambiguity in contracts.

Often you'll find the Job Description and even the Contract mentions a 35 hour week which is misleading when new starters find out they have to work 9 to 10 hours of forced overtime every 3 to 6 weeks (depending on depot)

It is a lot of overtime. Sunday's outside the working week should mean that you don't have to do them. If they are compulsary they should be in the working week. Committed Sunday's are the worst of both Worlds.

 

[wobman]

It does make me wonder sometimes how they get away with such ambiguity in contracts.
Mine states 'commited Sundays' but doesn't explicitly state how many so theoretically I've signed up for every Sunday and a few Sundays at the same time.

For WMR/LNWR it varies a bit per depot but usually it's every 4-5 weeks, sometimes there's a shorter gap but rarely from what I've seen

It's how vague these agreements are that baffles me, our Sunday jobs used to be quite good. But they wanted our depot to accept 2 jobs ontop of the agreement ratio. We said that can't be done so they just added the work to other jobs and now most Sunday jobs are rubbish.

 

[Grannyjoans]

I have heard of some Drivers paying others £100 or so to volunteer to work their committed Sunday's for them at Northern

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I have heard of some Drivers paying others £100 or so to volunteer to work their committed Sunday's for them at Northern

I guess if you're committed and nobody will cover it, why not.

 

[800 Driver]

Think, if you reread the big green book, that is incorrect

The Green Book Sunday section only applies to drivers recruited after harmonisation. Drivers employed pre harmonisation have their old Sunday agreement with no commitment to work their Sundays. Because of this Paddington historically linked 1 in 2 Sundays, (if you don't want to work, just throw it) the union said it would be unfair on new drivers, who in theory have a commitment, to link more than 1 in 3 Sundays (as this is the average at depots with a commitment). Doing this would have reduced the total number of crew available for Sundays so a local agreement was made whereby the LDC would continue to roster 1 in 2 Sundays but new drivers that started after harmonisation (that have a commitment) will be given a number of wild cards that they can use to throw 8 Sundays a year (taking their commitment to 17 - which is one in 3). However, because drivers with a commitment can get someone to cover their turn, having 8 wild cards effectively means that they don't have a commitment. Simple. I hope I have cleared this up.

 

[Grannyjoans]

At Northern there are two "Golden Sundays" that can be used per year to get rid of two committed Sundays. But they have to be used 10 days in advanced, so there is no way of knowing if wasting a "Golden Sunday" on a Committed Sunday that could have got covered anyway.