Todmorden Curve

[Darren R]

Hmm.... I could well be reading more into this than is really there, however...

National Rail Enquiries are still saying "Buses replace trains between Hebden Bridge and Burnley Manchester Road until Friday 28 March 2014," so that is still the official line.

But both Realtime Trains and Open Train Times are showing trains running through again from start of service on Monday 24th March.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hmm.... I could well be reading more into this than is really there, however...

National Rail Enquiries are still saying "Buses replace trains between Hebden Bridge and Burnley Manchester Road until Friday 28 March 2014," so that is still the official line.

But both Realtime Trains and Open Train Times are showing trains running through again from start of service on Monday 24th March.

Which of these options have been more reliable in the past in cases such as this where engineering works have been operational for some considerable time ?

 

[Darren R]

Well the (slightly) tongue-in-cheek answer is that anything is more reliable than NRE!

To give a serious answer to the specific question though; until an official announcement is made and information changed accordingly on NRE, I would continue to go off the latter. All that RTT and OTT signify is that train times (as opposed to buses) are in NetworkRail's schedules from Monday 24 March. Having just checked on the NR website, the Working Timetable book shows the same thing - something I had not noticed before.

That makes me think that NetworkRail hedged their bets with the publicised re-opening date of March 28, allowing an 'early' re-opening if all goes according to plan, but with a few days leaway for if things don't.

 

[wasi]

Having lived in East Lancs for the first 25 years of my life this project really is of huge importance to the area.

I was speaking to Northern Rail online yesterday about the 2 projects (The curve and Holme tunnel), and as others have said they are BOTH expected to be completed by March 28th.

However as has already been pointed out, there are no diesel trains to send up there until the electrification of Liverpool > Manchester, a situation which I find quite unbelievable.

I know the users of this forum know a hell of alot more about the rail network than myself so im just wondering why on earth there is not a single spare diesel train available ????

Ive read the entire thread so wondering if you people in the know as it where could shed any light on the situation ?

Also just wondering why on earth the train is going Manchester Victoria to Burnley Manchester Road then onto Blackburn ??? Does Blackburn really need another service to Manc Victoria??? Or im assuming its just a logistical/ line issue??? Could they not turn it round as others have said at Rose Grove???

Thanks

Lee

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Having lived in East Lancs for the first 25 years of my life this project really is of huge importance to the area.

Also just wondering why on earth the train is going Manchester Victoria to Burnley Manchester Road then onto Blackburn ??? Does Blackburn really need another service to Manc Victoria??? Or im assuming its just a logistical/ line issue??? Could they not turn it round as others have said at Rose Grove???

Firstly, welcome to the website and to this thread in particular. You say you lived in East Lancashire for 25 years, so you will surely be aware that Accrington is most certainly a large enough settlement to be one of the stations that the new Manchester-bound service will call at. I was somewhat peturbed that your idea of a Rose Grove service termination would have seen Accrington not being served as and when the new service will start.

 

[wasi]

Firstly, welcome to the website and to this thread in particular. You say you lived in East Lancashire for 25 years, so you will surely be aware that Accrington is most certainly a large enough settlement to be one of the stations that the new Manchester-bound service will call at. I was somewhat peturbed that your idea of a Rose Grove service termination would have seen Accrington not being served as and when the new service will start.

Good point. Like I said everyone on here knows ALOT more than myself about the network.

I take it they are terminating the service at Blackburn due to the fact it has the capacity to reverse the train??

Im just wondering what the time difference will be in terms of Blackburn> via the curve> Manc Victoria as apposed to the current Blackburn > Victoria service?

Thanks again.

 

[WatcherZero]

As an aside, Accringtons also the most urban district in East Lancashire with a higher population density than Blackburn with Darwen.

 

[ianhr]

Good point. Like I said everyone on here knows ALOT more than myself about the network.

I take it they are terminating the service at Blackburn due to the fact it has the capacity to reverse the train??

Im just wondering what the time difference will be in terms of Blackburn> via the curve> Manc Victoria as apposed to the current Blackburn > Victoria service?

Thanks again.

Blackburn certainly has more capacity for reversing a train than Accrington (Blackburn has 3 platforms with access to the eastbound tracks, Accrington has one westbound & one eastbound & I am not sure there is even a crossover).
Running to Blackburn also has the advantage of providing a more frequent service within E.Lancs between 3 large towns. In my experience the buses are slow and tedious. Burnley Manchester Road is a 10 min walk uphill from the town centre but Accrington & Blackburn stations are well sited close to the town centres.
I am not sure whether a provisional timetable has yet been published but these are my estimates from the existing Calder Valley & Yorks-Blackpool timetables, assuming a limited stop journey:-
Man Vic-Todmorden 25 mins
Todmorden-Burnley probably 15 mins since the timing from Hebden Br is 22-24 mins
Burnley-Blackburn 16 mins
which makes a through journey from Blackburn to Man Vic this way about 56 mins, probably slower than via Bolton, but since the existing service via Bolton is only hourly it might still be more attractive than waiting (depending on how the departures are spaced) or indeed taking a bus. Todmorden-Burnley will be less than half the bus timing but both the stations are only accessed by an uphill walk! Burnley-Man Vic & Burnley-Rochdale will be much quicker than any existing bus. Blackburn & Accrington will have a direct train to Rochdale for almost the first time in living memory.

 

[wasi]

Thanks for that.

I forgot it was only an hourly service from Blackburn to Victoria (via Bolton), so your theory of jumping on the Burnley > Todmorden> Victoria train instead of waiting is a good one . The amount of times ive missed that train by a few minutes and had to wait 50 odd minutes is beyond me!

 

[30907]

Todmorden-Burnley probably 15 mins since the timing from Hebden Br is 22-24 mins
Burnley-Blackburn 16 mins

Apart from the practicalities of turning the train back, an extra 30 minutes or so each way is very efficient timetabling because it is the most you can do with one extra unit and crew, so using Rose Grove would only save a bit on fuel.

The service is a Vic-Tod stopper in the draft May timetable BTW, which is evidently do-able with Northern's existing resources, whereas the extension requires persuading another operator to give up a unit.

 

[Darren R]

The long and the short of it as regards turning the trains round is that it has to be at Blackburn - there is nowhere else. Neither Rose Grove nor Accrington have the required signalling and trackwork. Additionally it gives a third train per hour between Blackburn, Accrington and Burnley and a better spacing between trains.

I think the sub-hour timings are a bit optimistic though. The May timetable has the trains reaching Todmorden from Vic in 25 minutes; another quarter hour or so must be added to reach Manchester Rd, and a further 20 mins or so to Blackburn.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Don't forget Blackburn - Bolton - Manchester is going to be half-hourly before too long. I would think it unlikely that Blackburn to Manchester tickets will be interchangeable between both routes though. There is quite a difference in mileage.

 

[wasi]

Thanks for the information everybody.

Absolutely remarkable amount of knowledge on this forum.

 

[edwin_m]

Unless it's changed in the last six or seven years, there are crossovers both ways just west of Accrington and one of them is signalled with the other being locally worked. So in principle the Curve service could turn back at Accrington. However there is no bay platform or siding so it would have to spend its turnback time sat on one or other of the main lines, and this might not work depending on what other trains were scheduled to pass by in the meantime.

 

[Darren R]

The crossovers at Accrington are worked manually from the adjacent Emergency Ground Frame. As far as I know (note the proviso - I'm sure someone more knowledgable will be along soon to correct me!) they are not signalled and cannot be used for regular schedued services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When I mentioned Accrington station in an earlier posting, it was only just to say that the suggestion that had been made in another posting to start and terminate the new Todmorden Chord services to Manchester at Rose Grove would have seen Accrington station lose any direct service to Manchester. It was in no way my intention that services should terminate at Accrington, with all the operational problems that would bring.

Accrington still has never forgiven the decision to close the direct line from there through Baxenden to Bury and then onwards to Manchester. Just think, they could have renamed Baxenden station as Holland Pies International...

 

[spongsdad]

When I mentioned Accrington station in an earlier posting, it was only just to say that the suggestion that had been made in another posting to start and terminate the new Todmorden Chord services to Manchester at Rose Grove would have seen Accrington station lose any direct service to Manchester. It was in no way my intention that services should terminate at Accrington, with all the operational problems that would bring.

Accrington still has never forgiven the decision to close the direct line from there through Baxenden to Bury and then onwards to Manchester. Just think, they could have renamed Baxenden station as Holland Pies International...

Not only that; think of the bulk freight traffic that would have been generated by shipment of the aforementioned confections to the four corners of the globe. Imagine: "Baxenden International to Paris via The Channel Tunnel"

 

[edwin_m]

The crossovers at Accrington are worked manually from the adjacent Emergency Ground Frame. As far as I know (note the proviso - I'm sure someone more knowledgable will be along soon to correct me!) they are not signalled and cannot be used for regular schedued services.

I have a set of photos taken by a colleague in 2007, which show the eastern (facing) crossover worked mechanically from the frame and the western (trailing) one worked by point machines and protected by shunt signals, which I think confirms it is worked from the panel. The Five Mile Plan doesn't show the shunt signals but gives a point number only for the western crossover.

 

[David Sinnett]

With the new chord would it make operational sense to have circular services to enable more intermediate journeys rather than consider everything in and out of Manchester?

 

[joeykins82]

Circular journeys don't make operational sense, full stop. Merging and running through routes that previously terminated in the city centre stations makes operational sense (Thameslink, Crossrail etc) but circular services make people cry.

 

[David Sinnett]

Who cries? Passengers, Ops staff, drivers?
What are the pros and cons of a circular as opposed to out and back?

 

[tbtc]

Who cries? Passengers, Ops staff, drivers?
What are the pros and cons of a circular as opposed to out and back?

First of all, there's nowhere to "layover", so you'd have to hope that Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn - Burnley - Rochdale - Manchester took almost exactly an hour (no point in a circular if you are going to have a twenty minute dwell somewhere en-route).

Secondly, there's no "plan B" if something goes wrong (e.g. at the moment a late running Manchester - Clitheroe service can be capped at Blackburn so that its on time for its southbound service - no such luxury on a circular service).

Thirdly, it becomes very difficult to deal with timetable changes when services on different corridors are permenantly linked to each other (e.g. amending the paths on the busy line from Manchester to Bolton would be restricted by services on the Manchester to Rochdale corridor).

You've also got to consider what real benefit there would be of a circular (that a stand alone Manchester - Bolton - Clitheroe and a stand alone Blackburn - Burnley - Rochdale - Manchester plus maybe a stand alone Manchester - Bolton -- Burnley - Colne service can't provide)? Is there really a big market to get from Rochdale to Entwistle? There are already services in that part of Lancashire that don't serve Manchester (York - Blackpool North, Colne - Blackpool South), so I'm struggling to see what "problem" you are trying to "solve".

 

[edwin_m]

Very true, and I would add that if you were lucky enough to find a service that did take exactly an hour, you still wouldn't make it a circular because it would have to have some layover somewhere to recover from any delays en route. End-to-end services can take this time at the terminus where it doesn't inconvenience any passengers.

The most famous circular service is/was probably the Circle Line. Even though this doesn't have a published timetable and is frequent enough that the journey time doesn't need to be a convenient number of hours, it was still turned into an end-to-end working because of the operational difficulties of maintaining a circular service.

 

[Darren R]

In addition to the reasons so precisely set out by tbtc above, a Manchester - Blackburn - Manchester circular wouldn't work because of the timings. Such a Grand Tour would take around 2hrs 5 minutes, not counting station dwell times at Victoria.

It serves no purpose and would be a recipe for disaster with the mostly single track section between Blackburn and Bolton. It would be a timetabling and operational nightmare, not to mention a hideously inefficient use of rolling stock.

 

[David Sinnett]

Good to learn the reasons the way the railway works!

 

[Hebden Bridger]

I am not sure whether a provisional timetable has yet been published but these are my estimates from the existing Calder Valley & Yorks-Blackpool timetables, assuming a limited stop journey:-
Man Vic-Todmorden 25 mins
Todmorden-Burnley probably 15 mins since the timing from Hebden Br is 22-24 mins
Burnley-Blackburn 16 mins
which makes a through journey from Blackburn to Man Vic this way about 56 mins.

The Burnley service will at first be an extension of the Victoria to Tod stopper to be introduced in May 2014 - due to take 40mins not 25
Both Bradford services will become fast/semi-fast/whatever from that date and stopping services provided by the Tod/Burnley and Dewsbury services.

AFAIK faster Burnley services are planned from 2016, stopping at Tod, Littleborough and Rochdale, so still probably over 25min.

 

[wasi]

Thanks for the information Hebden Bridger.

Any idea of a journey time between Burnley Manchester Road > Victoria on the stopper???

 

[spongsdad]

Thanks for the information Hebden Bridger.

Any idea of a journey time between Burnley Manchester Road > Victoria on the stopper???

For the moment and until the direct service is phased in, it looks like the "official" NR route from Burnley Manchester Road to Victoria will be via Hebden Bridge with a change of train and a best journey time of 62 minutes.

 

[thealexweb]

With the new chord would it make operational sense to have circular services to enable more intermediate journeys rather than consider everything in and out of Manchester?

Given the shortage of DMUs and given that it is now a circular route in a way, Northern should copy Scotrail and use loco-hauled Mark 2s (of which there are lots going spare / in storage) and provide a circular route.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Given the shortage of DMUs and given that it is now a circular route in a way, Northern should copy Scotrail and use loco-hauled Mark 2s (of which there are lots going spare / in storage) and provide a circular route.

I am not sure that would work in this situation, it is not circular enough to not require a run around... where is it going to run round? Not sure we have lots of spare DVTs fit for traffic atm.

 

[Welshman]

I am not sure that would work in this situation, it is not circular enough to not require a run around... where is it going to run round? Not sure we have lots of spare DVTs fit for traffic atm.

Sorry, but I'm at a loss as to where such a service would have to run round!
As far as I remember, Manchester Victoria-Rochdale-Todmorden-Todmorden curve-Burnley Manchester Rd-Rose Grove-Accrington-Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester Victoria may be undesirable/impractical from a commercial or operating standpoint, but would require no run-round.