Todmorden Curve

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Additionally, the services from Vic to Blackburn via Todmorden are running to Clitheroe at weekends, presumably to make up for the absence of trains via Darwen until October. Reversing at Blackburn and taking an hour and three quarters, it's probably quicker to change at Blackburn on to the rail-replacement bus!

Just looking at the Manchester to Blackburn part of that journey, how will that compare at the said weekend period with the X41 Manchester to Blackburn bus service....and price-wise and time-wise?

 

[30907]

The X 41 takes 90min, but is certainly cheaper.

 

[Philip C]

........ so far as I am aware, direct services to Manchester, at least from Burnley, never ran via Todmorden but used the shorter route via Accrington, Haslingden & Bury. There is no precedent for a Blackburn to Manchester via Todmorden service, so far as I know.

This has not been an easy issue to resolve but....

The LMS Timetable dated July 3rd to September 24th (incl.) 1939 includes the following:

Mon-Fri 348pm Manchester Victoria to York: First stop was Rochdale (arr. 407pm) from where the main train departed at 410pm running to York (arr. 556pm) via Brighouse and Normanton with a next stop of Sowerby Bridge (arr. 436pm). A rear portion departed Rochdale at 416pm and called at Todmorden (arr. 431pm, dep 434pm), Towneley (449pm), Burnley (Manchester Road) (455pm) and Rose Grove (arr. 458pm). The note in the Calder Valley Timetable (Table 149) states "Passengers from Manchester (Vic) for the Todmorden and Burnley direction travel in the three rear vehicles" another columnar note clearly states "To Burnley". Reference to Table 187 shows the train onward from Todmorden but makes no reference to it being a train from south of Todmorden but states that the 434pm from Todmorden is a "Through Train to Blackpool (North)" and gives an arrival time there, after many stops, of 642pm.

The way I interpret this is that the rear portion of the 348pm York express was detached at Rochdale and worked to Burnley as through carriages as explicitly stated in Table 149. These then carried forward to Blackpool (North) but were not advertised beyond Burnley (Manchester Road or Rose Grove?) at Victoria. Of course it is just possible that there were carriages working Victoria to Burnley and others Todmorden to Blackpool North and that they were combined into one train for the common section. Given the station times (3 minutes at Todmorden and 4 minutes at Rose Grove) this seems unlikely, though not impossible, as a lot of reformation could be done in a short time in those days.

Of course the war broke out during that Timetable and the Emergency LMS Timetable of "September 1939 Until Further Notice" still shows a 434pm from Todmorden as far as Preston, but only a connection onto a train from Victoria via one of the more conventional routes (being non-stop to Preston it is probably routed via Atherton and Chorley) beyond. The 348pm York Express is no more and a connection off the 325pm Leeds train from Victoria (itself the 230pm from Liverpool (Exchange)) provided for the Manchester - Burnley traffic.

Having found the above I've not looked further. Various dates in the 1950s failed to yield trough trains. The real delight of having old timetables on a desert island would be having the time to really examine them!

I hope that the above is of interest and would welcome any further information or comments.

 

[itsonlyme]

If anybody has a suitable WTT can they see what happened to the stock from the 08:05 Southport - Todmorden in the '50s. This terminated in the Manchester bound platform at Todmorden. I remember an incident with a childs toy pram falling between train and platform which occured after I was alighting from this train. I am sure the child and family were trying to board.

 

[spongsdad]

This has not been an easy issue to resolve but....

The LMS Timetable dated July 3rd to September 24th (incl.) 1939 includes the following:

Mon-Fri 348pm Manchester Victoria to York: First stop was Rochdale (arr. 407pm) from where the main train departed at 410pm running to York (arr. 556pm) via Brighouse and Normanton with a next stop of Sowerby Bridge (arr. 436pm). A rear portion departed Rochdale at 416pm and called at Todmorden (arr. 431pm, dep 434pm), Towneley (449pm), Burnley (Manchester Road) (455pm) and Rose Grove (arr. 458pm). The note in the Calder Valley Timetable (Table 149) states "Passengers from Manchester (Vic) for the Todmorden and Burnley direction travel in the three rear vehicles" another columnar note clearly states "To Burnley". Reference to Table 187 shows the train onward from Todmorden but makes no reference to it being a train from south of Todmorden but states that the 434pm from Todmorden is a "Through Train to Blackpool (North)" and gives an arrival time there, after many stops, of 642pm.

The way I interpret this is that the rear portion of the 348pm York express was detached at Rochdale and worked to Burnley as through carriages as explicitly stated in Table 149. These then carried forward to Blackpool (North) but were not advertised beyond Burnley (Manchester Road or Rose Grove?) at Victoria. Of course it is just possible that there were carriages working Victoria to Burnley and others Todmorden to Blackpool North and that they were combined into one train for the common section. Given the station times (3 minutes at Todmorden and 4 minutes at Rose Grove) this seems unlikely, though not impossible, as a lot of reformation could be done in a short time in those days.

Of course the war broke out during that Timetable and the Emergency LMS Timetable of "September 1939 Until Further Notice" still shows a 434pm from Todmorden as far as Preston, but only a connection onto a train from Victoria via one of the more conventional routes (being non-stop to Preston it is probably routed via Atherton and Chorley) beyond. The 348pm York Express is no more and a connection off the 325pm Leeds train from Victoria (itself the 230pm from Liverpool (Exchange)) provided for the Manchester - Burnley traffic.

Having found the above I've not looked further. Various dates in the 1950s failed to yield trough trains. The real delight of having old timetables on a desert island would be having the time to really examine them!

I hope that the above is of interest and would welcome any further information or comments.

I believe I have found the same train in the 1938 Bradshaw, though I can't find the reference to the through carriages from Manchester. Nevertheless, as with all matters historical, railway or any other subject, one has always to be prepared to be proven wrong. I'm glad I put "so far as I know" in my post. Thanks for your research and I will be eating my slice of humble pie for dinner tonight.
From the Bradshaw 1938 timetable, I think I may have found a Sundays only Todmorden to Manchester Vic. via Burnley as the timetable shows a 10:05 am departure from Burnley Manchester Rd, originating in Todmorden at 09:45 continuing to Manchester via Helmshore and Bury. It arrived in Accrington at 10:23 and there was certainly time for the train to divide as a departure for Manchester showed at 10:30 and for Blackburn at 10:40. The shunting manoeuvre at Accrington would have been interesting!
Like you, I find old timetables fascinating and they would certainly accompany "The Bible & Shakespeare" to my desert island

 

[L&Y Robert]

If anybody has a suitable WTT can they see what happened to the stock from the 08:05 Southport - Todmorden in the '50s. This terminated in the Manchester bound platform at Todmorden.

When we were kids (me and my sisters) we used to go over with out parents to Dad's office on a Saturday morning. My sisters went to dancing class, Mother shopping, Dad met clients. But I trudged up Hall Street, then Rosebank Road, and climbed up the bank (it was a bald grassy bank then) behind the signal box to watch operations in the goods yard across the line. But there were two sidings on my side of the line, accessed by a track which came off the Down, and passed BEHIND the signal box (i.e. on the landward side). There was a crossover on the main line just there also. In one of those sidings was always a rake of coaches (three, I think) which formed the afternoon "Blackpool", which usually took us home to Manchester Road. I always hung on until the tank engine came snuffling through the station bunker first, crossed over, and then eased back onto said rake. Then it was time to go and I had to look sharp. Could that be the ex Southport?

 

[Llama]

The first trains have run each way over the route now.

 

[thealexweb]

The first trains have run each way over the route now.

Very nice that they have included the Clitheroe portions as part of the route. I presume this is only until the Farnworth tunnel work is completed?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Very nice that they have included the Clitheroe portions as part of the route. I presume this is only until the Farnworth tunnel work is completed?

Noting what has been said above, will the Clitheroe extension only be at weekends or will it be a 7-day entity?

 

[Deerfold]

Noting what has been said above, will the Clitheroe extension only be at weekends or will it be a 7-day entity?

That would be weekends only at the moment.

 

[Darren R]

Noting what has been said above, will the Clitheroe extension only be at weekends or will it be a 7-day entity?

During the Farnworth Tunnel works, trains from Clitheroe are still running direct via Bolton Monday to Friday. It's only at weekends, when there are no trains between Blackburn, Bolton and Manchester.

 

[Ploughman]

From BBC Lancashire. Also on BBC Manchester.
Direct rail services between Manchester and Burnley have been reinstated.
It follows the reopening of the 500m stretch known as the Todmorden Curve, which has been delayed by a year. The route was initially axed in 1972.
Passengers no longer have to change at Hebden Bridge in Yorkshire on journeys between Burnley and Manchester.
Burnley Council said £10m had been invested in the link, which will halve travel times to about 50 minutes between the two stations.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-32754835

 

[MidnightFlyer]

A driver's eye view (compressed to 5 minutes) from Blackburn to Man Vic on the first timetabled passenger train to traverse the Curve (2J61 0818 BBN-MCV) is here:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../todmorden-curve-opens-watch-historic-9272644

This video shows the historic first journey of the new direct train service between Manchester Victoria and Blackburn.

The route was open to the public for the first time in more than 40 years and around 100 rail enthusiasts, community leaders and shoppers gathered for its maiden voyage.

This exclusive video shows the driver’s eye view from Burnley [sic] to Manchester Victoria and was taken on the first train at 8.18am on Sunday, May 17.

The commute, which will take just over one hour, is now possible after the reinstatement of 500m of rail track known as the Todmorden Curve.

 

[Peter Lanky]

I'm sure this will have been asked before, but why did the Todmorden curve cost so much? I'm sure there's a good explanation, but to the novice, it appears to simply be reinstating a stretch of track that was already there, and has not been compromised by careless building in the interim years.

 

[Bevan Price]

If anybody has a suitable WTT can they see what happened to the stock from the 08:05 Southport - Todmorden in the '50s. This terminated in the Manchester bound platform at Todmorden. I remember an incident with a childs toy pram falling between train and platform which occured after I was alighting from this train. I am sure the child and family were trying to board.

The 1956 Passenger WTT shows a 08:00 from Southport, arrive Todmorden 09:44, with no obvious movements other than to return on the 10:25 Todmorden - Preston. No other trains (passenger or e.c.s.) are shown originating at Todmorden during this interval.

 

[spongsdad]

I'm sure this will have been asked before, but why did the Todmorden curve cost so much? I'm sure there's a good explanation, but to the novice, it appears to simply be reinstating a stretch of track that was already there, and has not been compromised by careless building in the interim years.

This is not an authoritative answer but I believe some of the cost would be related to the rebuilding of Manchester Road station in Burnley. So far as I know, all the costs of providing a direct service between the East Lancs towns and Manchester are lumped together under the heading "Todmorden Curve" However, as I stated in a previous post, I stand open to correction.

 

[jon91]

I'm sure this will have been asked before, but why did the Todmorden curve cost so much? I'm sure there's a good explanation, but to the novice, it appears to simply be reinstating a stretch of track that was already there, and has not been compromised by careless building in the interim years.

It was relaid seeing as the old formation was hidden under a small forest of trees so I doubt that it was in a salvageable state. Alongside installation of new signalling and pointwork.

 

[Starmill]

'rebuilding' is perhaps a little erroneous. What was there already (the platforms) have hardly changed. It's just had a building, a screen and ticket machine added, although it does mean it is now staffed part-time, which is very weird. Just the one-shift, Mon-Fri only. Now the poor cousin in terms of service (although maybe not location) is Burnley Central which is open until late every day.


Another thing to point out is that they haven't altered the fare structure to take account of this, with a ticket from Todmorden to Burnley still costing more than a ticket from Hebden Bridge to Burnley. A lower priced 'Not Hebden Bridge' ought to have been added because now we are in the predicament of: can you use a Hebden Bridge - Burnley ticket from Todmorden?

Another rather crazy thing is that tickets from Burnley to Manchester routed 'Via Todmorden' are only very slightly more expensive than tickets from Burnley to Todmorden! £9.10 for an Off-Peak Day Return from Burnley (£9 single, more if before 0900) is crazy.

 

[spongsdad]

Another thing to point out is that they haven't altered the fare structure to take account of this, with a ticket from Todmorden to Burnley still costing more than a ticket from Hebden Bridge to Burnley. A lower priced 'Not Hebden Bridge' ought to have been added because now we are in the predicament of: can you use a Hebden Bridge - Burnley ticket from Todmorden?

Another rather crazy thing is that tickets from Burnley to Manchester routed 'Via Todmorden' are only very slightly more expensive than tickets from Burnley to Todmorden! £9.10 for an Off-Peak Day Return from Burnley (£9 single, more if before 0900) is crazy.

I think Strowger in post #1671 above, has the answer to this one. The route via Todmorden is less than 3 miles different and so must be treated as direct. So if you want to go to Hebden Bridge via Todmorden and decide to curtail your journey at Todmorden it would appear that you can validly do so.

 

[itsonlyme]

Thanks for that info Bevan. Apologies for the slightly incorrect time in my post, it was of course, 08:00 from Southport. 0805 was for Preston.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If there were no trains available to run this service as was stated ad nauseum by the TOC involved, where did those units that ran the service yesterday suddenly appear from and what were those units that were in service yesterday?

 

[Loop & Link]

Released by the 319's. Also helps that there are units released by the Farnworth tunnel blockade.

 

[chrissawer]

If there were no trains available to run this service as was stated ad nauseum by the TOC involved, where did those units that ran the service yesterday suddenly appear from and what were those units that were in service yesterday?

I saw the last Manchester-bound service of the day pass through Todmorden station at 2246.

It was a four coach train formed of two class 150s coupled together - didn't get the numbers, sorry.

 

[spongsdad]

If there were no trains available to run this service as was stated ad nauseum by the TOC involved, where did those units that ran the service yesterday suddenly appear from and what were those units that were in service yesterday?

The trains were all four coach units. two were comprised of 2x150; the other two were formed of a 150 and a 142. But don't worry Paul, the one train I have seen today, the 10:39 off Manchester Road, is a good ol' Pacer!
The 150's would I expect, be those freed up by the absence of a Sunday service via Bolton

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at the type of rail units available to be used on the Todmorden Chord set off a chain of "onwards logical progression" thoughts in one of my idle moments this morning and I will set the following poser...

If you have recently used the X43 Lancashire Witch service with its fleet of modern buses, posh seats and Wi-Fi, then go down in quality transportation provision to that of one of "Newton Heath's Finest", what then would be the same type of "downwards logical progression" that would similarly follow on in a lessening of quality from one of "Newton Heath's Finest" lead to?....hock:

 

[stockport1]

Looking at the type of rail units available to be used on the Todmorden Chord set off a chain of "onwards logical progression" thoughts in one of my idle moments this morning and I will set the following poser...

If you have recently used the X43 Lancashire Witch service with its fleet of modern buses, posh seats and Wi-Fi, then go down in quality transportation provision to that of one of "Newton Heath's Finest", what then would be the same type of "downwards logical progression" that would similarly follow on in a lessening of quality from one of "Newton Heath's Finest" lead to?....hock:

a coffin on a shopping trolley?? or is that still more comfortable than a pacer?

 

[po8crg]

Horse and cart on a rutted track.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm sure this will have been asked before, but why did the Todmorden curve cost so much? I'm sure there's a good explanation, but to the novice, it appears to simply be reinstating a stretch of track that was already there, and has not been compromised by careless building in the interim years.

The curve was taken out before the area was re-signalled with control from Preston in the early 70s (although the Stansfield Hall end was retained as a banking siding). Modifying old signalling tends to be very expensive due to the risk of damaging it and the various safety procedures to be followed.

Also I believe NR wanted to use standard turnouts and not put the crossover on the viaduct, which led to some realignment of the existing line.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I am on the 1320 Blackburn-Victoria Pacer.
Total complement over Copy Pit was 12, 5 of whom got on at Burnley.
There were at least some genuine passengers, not just first week tourists like me.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am on the 1320 Blackburn-Victoria Pacer.
Total complement over Copy Pit was 12, 5 of whom got on at Burnley.
There were at least some genuine passengers, not just first week tourists like me.

I wonder what the loading was like on the X43 Lancashire Witch bus service that ran from Burnley in the same time period?