Too many bikes on train

[lj9090]

I think I was on a different train to the one you're referring to. Mine was a 10 coach 444(?) . The train was rammed full of people using the £15 special. Guard handled it well without a major fuss and I think from looking at the platform that some of the bike passengers detrained.

Was wondering if this morning would get posted here...

The £15 specials have made this train quite noticeably busier, though all those kicked off were regulars and I presume they ended up on the "slow" train. Which from experience is often really properly busy till Brockenhurst and probably more so now it's running as a 9.

I gave up bringing a bike on this train a couple of years ago. For one I moved closer so it became pointless, but the other factor was the inconsistency in loadings so I gladly gave up having to try.
FYi this morning was 7 in coach 3 and quite definetly blocking the aisle... and just 2 in coach 4.

The record I've seen is 9 and one of the regulars remembers 10 once. Lucky for us the guard didn't spot this or turned a blind eye.
I wouldn't be so quick to blame the modern trains, it's just got far busier. On a good (or bad...) day it's quite usual to have 5 bikes per spot so that's 20 throughout a 10 car. From what I remember of taking bikes in the old "guards van" the thinking that they used to carry more than now is a little bit of overambitious nostalgia. The 442s certainly would only take about 5 or 6 which is the same as a 444 set is supposed to take and there was no chancing a few more on like you can today.
You'd need something like the half a carriage efforts you see in Denmark and Germany to really cope with the demand and I don't think that we'll see that sort of thing here.

I'd be disappointed to see a ban because I do still take a bike on the train for non work journeys to save driving all the way or have someone come pick me up but I wouldn't be surprised to see a crackdown at some point.

 

[amateur]

It annoys me how negatively perceived cyclists are in the eye of the typical rail passenger -
We just can't win.

it doesn't annoy me ... i don't understand why it bothers other people so much. i regularly see tweets from (i presume, non -cycling) passengers posting photos and bemoaning about bikes on trains.

I have to get on a train with bikes packed...do i care? No. People know which side the doors shall open, so they always place their bikes on the opposite side.

if other people want to cycle, let them so be.

 

[HLE]

At the end of the day the NRCOC apply

So if the train crew (guard or train manager) say no, that's the end of it. They're ultimately responsible for the safety of the passengers and the general safe working of the train.
And it should be pointed out that if we don't and something goes wrong and someone gets hurt we're the ones who could end up in court on charges of negligence etc.

Exactly.

 

[al78]

it doesn't annoy me ... i don't understand why it bothers other people so much.

There has been research done on this. It comes down to cyclists being treated as a minority out group and thus an easy target for bigotry and hatred. It has been found that when people are shown cyclist and motorist incidents they will be biased towards blaming the cyclist, without taking into consideration any circumstances which may have influenced the cyclists behaviour. On the other hand, they will tend to excuse or trivialise motoring infractions.

 

[HLE]

There has been research done on this. It comes down to cyclists being treated as a minority out group and thus an easy target for bigotry and hatred. It has been found that when people are shown cyclist and motorist incidents they will be biased towards blaming the cyclist, without taking into consideration any circumstances which may have influenced the cyclists behaviour. On the other hand, they will tend to excuse or trivialise motoring infractions.

And as a cyclist I agree.

But there are people out there who cannot cycle correctly and think they are a law to themselves on the road. Speaking as a motorist and a cyclist, I have been in both situations and can only come to the conclusion that everyone should be made to take a cycling test before a driving test. I can't see any drawbacks but a whole range of benefits. Don't think it would be too popular though.

 

[OliverS]

It isn't a new problem. Back in the 80s we were going on a family cycling holiday in Norfolk. Loaded the bikes into the guards van of the DMU from Norwich heading to Cromer but too many bikes were present and the guard refused to leave until he could access the doors on both sides.

It wasn't our bikes that were blocking the doors but we eventually resolved the issue by my father and I cycling to a pub near Gunton to meet the others who took the train. However we did refuse to move the bikes until we had had our tickets refunded. The train left a good 15 mins or more late.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It isn't a new problem. Back in the 80s we were going on a family cycling holiday in Norfolk. Loaded the bikes into the guards van of the DMU from Norwich heading to Cromer but too many bikes were present and the guard refused to leave until he could access the doors on both sides.

It wasn't our bikes that were blocking the doors but we eventually resolved the issue by my father and I cycling to a pub near Gunton to meet the others who took the train. However we did refuse to move the bikes until we had had our tickets refunded. The train left a good 15 mins or more late.

And it should be pointed out that obstructing a train is an offence.

 

[Sprinter153]

I try and enforce cycle restrictions on my services but it's not an easy task. I have been verbally abused and even spat at by cyclists for having the temerity to ask them not to lock their cycle to the train, keep their pannier bags with them or request that the disabled space is used for a wheelchair in preference to their hulking contraption - and that's before we get to services that have a specific bicycle ban.

I frequently come down to the platform to prepare the train to find bicycles stowed vertically in doorways, blocking a set of doors, which is an obvious safety hazard (especially when if I was to lock that set of doors out the rule book would require me to lock the coach out for evacuation reasons!).

I've taken to trying to educate, making announcements, handing out the 'cycling by train' leaflets and telling passengers they may be refused travel next time, but it seems to work like opportunist fare evasion, they get away with it the six days a week they don't see me so they still only get inconvenienced once a week!

 

[Bletchleyite]

A bike in a doorway is not a meaningful safety hazard, given that it is effectively never the right choice to blindly and quickly evacuate a train. If that door needs to be opened in emergency, the bicycle would be quickly and easily pushed out onto the track. Same with luggage etc blocking doors.

On WCML services from Euston to MKC, it's really not a problem - all the intermediate station platforms after MKC (except Tring southbound) are on the same side.

 

[OliverS]

And it should be pointed out that obstructing a train is an offence.

Fortunately we weren't. Our bikes were stowed out of the way, we merely offered to move them so the bikes blocking the door could take their space, but on the condition that our tickets were refunded prior to us moving them. It was a compromise to get the train moving so those of us in the party not prepared to cycle 20 miles could get to our destination.

But it does show that even in the days of guard's vans there were times that there wasn't enough space for bikes.

These days the problem I have is that when cycling with my children I want to keep all of our 4 bikes together. Since we are technically only allowed 2 bikes per bike space this means we either have to split up or ignore the rules.

 

[6Gman]

it doesn't annoy me ... i don't understand why it bothers other people so much. i regularly see tweets from (i presume, non -cycling) passengers posting photos and bemoaning about bikes on trains.

I have to get on a train with bikes packed...do i care? No. People know which side the doors shall open, so they always place their bikes on the opposite side.

if other people want to cycle, let them so be.

I'd describe myself as pro-bike, but I can understand the problems that can arise.

For example I was on a 1600ish Southport - Hunts Cross a few weeks ago. A busy train with people standing by the time we got to Liverpool. At which point 3 or 4 cyclists piled in, stacking their bikes against each other. It was awkward for standing passengers - grease in abundance with the added bonus of potential bikes crashing into you!

 

[notlob.divad]

These days the problem I have is that when cycling with my children I want to keep all of our 4 bikes together. Since we are technically only allowed 2 bikes per bike space this means we either have to split up or ignore the rules.

And this is very sensible. I got a train in Poland on Easter Monday, relatively small (3 carriages) local service that took me to the airport via a windy route through some of the countryside around the city. However it was brand new.

Right in the middle of the train, space for 8 adult bikes hanging vertically by the front wheel, 4 either side, and you could still get children's bikes in around them. They where brilliant, and as you might expect for a sunny bank holiday, incredibly well used by families and individuals a like. The beauty of hanging the bikes meant you could get your bike in and out without having to fiddle with other people's bikes, although there was a lady who had to be helped to get her front wheel on the hook.

Admittedly I think the wider loading gauge they have their is of benefit for these kind of installations, but it goes to show that it can be done if there is the will there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, You can never have too many bikes on a train.

Whilst in the UK...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

A bike in a doorway is not a meaningful safety hazard, given that it is effectively never the right choice to blindly and quickly evacuate a train. If that door needs to be opened in emergency, the bicycle would be quickly and easily pushed out onto the track. Same with luggage etc blocking doors.

On WCML services from Euston to MKC, it's really not a problem - all the intermediate station platforms after MKC (except Tring southbound) are on the same side.

If it has a green emergency egress handle it's an emergency exit, ask a lawyer about the legal ramifications about knowingly obstructing/blocking an emergency exit and the penalties.

In an emergency as any airline steward or stewardess will tell you EVERY SECOND COUNTS.

It's the legal side of things that always concern me and the possibility of ending up in legal trouble, in this litigious world we now live in, do I or any of my colleagues want to take any chances? I don't think so.

As I posted earlier, traincrew have the absolute right of veto when it comes to bikes, whether anyone likes it or not. END OF.

Throw a strop or make a threat or even assault a member of staff then you'll be having a chat with either the BTP or even civil police and I'm not so sure that you're employer will be so understanding why you're not in for work because you're in a cell or having a day or two off for a court appearance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it has a green emergency egress handle it's an emergency exit, ask a lawyer about the legal ramifications about knowingly obstructing/blocking an emergency exit and the penalties.

It may have legal ramifications, but it does not necessarily have practical ones.

In an emergency as any airline steward or stewardess will tell you EVERY SECOND COUNTS.

A train is not a plane. The priority on a plane is quick evacuation. The priority on the train is (have you read the safety notices? If you're traincrew I would hope so) to *remain on board if at all possible*. A quick evacuation is almost never desirable. There is time to collect luggage (if safe to disembark with it) and throw a bicycle out.

It's the legal side of things that always concern me and the possibility of ending up in legal trouble, in this litigious world we now live in, do I or any of my colleagues want to take any chances? I don't think so.

And it is entirely correct that you follow the instructions of your employer and the law. However, I am debating the practical issue. I have long taken the view that people should be honest about the reasons for things[1] - and I don't believe a bicycle by a train door poses a hazard, it is just that standardised (for good reason) H&S legislation may prevent it being legal to stow one there.

[1] Example: many airlines quote name change fees as for security reasons. They are not; knowing who is on board no doubt is, but there is nothing whatsoever to say they could not choose to allow that person to be changed at the airport on the day for no fee. They are for revenue protection reasons - and I would like them to be honest about that.

As I posted earlier, traincrew have the absolute right of veto when it comes to bikes, whether anyone likes it or not. END OF.

Indeed so, if I'm on your train - this, however, is a Web forum and not your train

Throw a strop or make a threat or even assault a member of staff then you'll be having a chat with either the BTP or even civil police and I'm not so sure that you're employer will be so understanding why you're not in for work because you're in a cell or having a day or two off for a court appearance.

Indeed so, though I don't know how on earth you got from me disagreeing with the actual safety implications of something on a web forum to the completely false and borderline offensive implication that I might do something like that to a member of railway staff.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It may have legal ramifications, but it does not necessarily have practical ones.



A train is not a plane. The priority on a plane is quick evacuation. The priority on the train is (have you read the safety notices? If you're traincrew I would hope so) to *remain on board if at all possible*. A quick evacuation is almost never desirable. There is time to collect luggage (if safe to disembark with it) and throw a bicycle out.



And it is entirely correct that you follow the instructions of your employer and the law. However, I am debating the practical issue. I have long taken the view that people should be honest about the reasons for things[1] - and I don't believe a bicycle by a train door poses a hazard, it is just that standardised (for good reason) H&S legislation may prevent it being legal to stow one there.

[1] Example: many airlines quote name change fees as for security reasons. They are not; knowing who is on board no doubt is, but there is nothing whatsoever to say they could not choose to allow that person to be changed at the airport on the day for no fee. They are for revenue protection reasons - and I would like them to be honest about that.



Indeed so, if I'm on your train - this, however, is a Web forum and not your train



Indeed so, though I don't know how on earth you got from me disagreeing with the actual safety implications of something on a web forum to the completely false and borderline offensive implication that I might do something like that to a member of railway staff.

I'm not saying YOU personally would.

 

[mugam4]

I try and enforce cycle restrictions on my services but it's not an easy task. I have been verbally abused and even spat at by cyclists for having the temerity to ask them not to lock their cycle to the train

If the motion of the train causes my bike to fall over because the fitting that keeps the wheel upright is too wide, do I lock it to a grab handle to prevent it from falling into the path of an emergency exit or obey the sign, leave it and go to sit down in the carriage? I'm never sure which staff would prefer..

 

[amateur]

There has been research done on this. It comes down to cyclists being treated as a minority out group and thus an easy target for bigotry and hatred.

I hadn't realised cyclists were deemed a minority out group.

 

[PowerLee]

Maybe it's time the rail companies considered a blanket ban on any cycle that doesn't fold down for easy storage.

 

[mbreckers]

I hadn't realised cyclists were deemed a minority out group.

oh yes, and they believe that they are a minority group hard done by

 

[jopsuk]

Once was one of ~250 cyclists with bikes on an 8-car 317. You lot don't know what "too many" bikes is.

 

[theironroad]

*wonders if the UK rail system will ever allow all passengers to be seated, all cyclists to be accomodated, all wheelchairs and prams to board on the same train.*

Live in hope.

 

[al78]

oh yes, and they believe that they are a minority group hard done by

Where "hard done by" usually means objecting to tossers driving dangerously around them, which is fair enough.

 

[Agent_c]

Maybe it's time the rail companies considered a blanket ban on any cycle that doesn't fold down for easy storage.

Maybe on some units we could put on an exterior bike rack like on the front of a bus?

 

[Drogba11CFC]

I try and enforce cycle restrictions on my services but it's not an easy task. I have been verbally abused and even spat at by cyclists for having the temerity to ask them not to lock their cycle to the train, keep their pannier bags with them or request that the disabled space is used for a wheelchair in preference to their hulking contraption - and that's before we get to services that have a specific bicycle ban.

I frequently come down to the platform to prepare the train to find bicycles stowed vertically in doorways, blocking a set of doors, which is an obvious safety hazard (especially when if I was to lock that set of doors out the rule book would require me to lock the coach out for evacuation reasons!).

I've taken to trying to educate, making announcements, handing out the 'cycling by train' leaflets and telling passengers they may be refused travel next time, but it seems to work like opportunist fare evasion, they get away with it the six days a week they don't see me so they still only get inconvenienced once a week!

I've had my share of run-ins with cyclists recently. Several of them have been pavement cyclists who seem to play chicken with unwilling and unwary pedestrians, but there was an incident a couple of weeks ago where one came up behind me and shot past at high speed. He then got arsey (and presumably swore at me) when I yelled to him that there was a bell on his bicycle and he should use it.

 

[LowLevel]

Once was one of ~250 cyclists with bikes on an 8-car 317. You lot don't know what "too many" bikes is.

Au contraire - it's whatever I say it is

 

[Sheepy1209]

I've had my share of run-ins with cyclists recently. Several of them have been pavement cyclists who seem to play chicken with unwilling and unwary pedestrians, but there was an incident a couple of weeks ago where one came up behind me and shot past at high speed. He then got arsey (and presumably swore at me) when I yelled to him that there was a bell on his bicycle and he should use it.

Having been shouted at for having the temerity to use my bell, it just shows you can't win. Like every forum thread, on any forum, whatever the subject, mention bikes and it descends into generalisations and self-righteousness.

Your post has nothing to do with bikes on trains, other than an assumption that 'cyclists' are somehow a single group of people most of whom are rule-breakers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you yell anything to anyone, expect a confrontation. It does not work. It will never work. It is therapeutic, perhaps, but will never solve any problem, ever.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Drogba11CFC]

If you yell anything to anyone, expect a confrontation. It does not work. It will never work. It is therapeutic, perhaps, but will never solve any problem, ever.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Part of the reason why I yelled was because he was already disappearing at great speed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of the reason why I yelled was because he was already disappearing at great speed.

Whatever he was doing it gained you nothing. He got angry and thought you were an idiot. You got angry and thought he was an idiot. He won't think any differently next time.

There is no point in remonstrating with other drivers/cyclists/pedestrians. It never gains anything. If you feel an offence has been committed, contact the Police, though in this situation it'll do very little.

You may as well just humour idiots, it'll benefit your stress level. Laugh at their incompetence while knowing you are better.

 

[BestWestern]

If the motion of the train causes my bike to fall over because the fitting that keeps the wheel upright is too wide, do I lock it to a grab handle to prevent it from falling into the path of an emergency exit or obey the sign, leave it and go to sit down in the carriage? I'm never sure which staff would prefer..

Clearly you need to invest in a fatter bicycle which meets the Railway Group Standard 'cycle wheel fitting' specifications....