Top Ten Overcrowded Services

[SGS]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/19/crunch-time-most-overcrowded-train

The DfT appear to have published some new figures on the services which are the most overcrowded, ranked according to percentage over capacity.

The survey was done in Autumn 2011, so I don't know why it's taken them so long to appear.

The percentage over capacity figure is an interesting one to use. Which is the biggest problem - a two-car DMU service running at 60% over capacity, or a ten-car EMU at 30% over capacity? The latter has a lot more standing passengers!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The list in full (bracketed figure is rounded % over full capacity):

0744 Henley-on-Thames-Paddington (80%)
0732 Woking-Waterloo (64%)
1813 Euston-Birmingham New St (62%)
1648 Euston-Birmingham New St (60%)
0630 Banbury-Paddington (58%)
0755 Stourbidge Jn-Stratford-upon-Avon 57%)
0623 Manchester Airport-Middlesbrough (55%)
1817 Liverpool St-Shenfield (54%)
0714 Alton-Waterloo (52%)
1746 Euston-Birmingham New St (52%)

 

[pemma]

The percentage over capacity figure is an interesting one to use. Which is the biggest problem - a two-car DMU service running at 60% over capacity, or a ten-car EMU at 30% over capacity? The latter has a lot more standing passengers!

The definition of overcrowded is defined as carrying more passengers than 135% of the seating capacity. It's a bit of a stupid one as it means trains with 3+2 seating are supposed to be able to carry more standing than ones with 2+2 seating when it should be the other way around.

However, I disagree with your statement. 80 standing passengers on a 4 car EMU is much safer than 60 standing passengers on a 2 car EMU. The latter is a lot more likely to have people passing out due to a poor air circulation, being very hot etc.

 

[tbtc]

0623 Manchester Airport-Middlesbrough (55%)

This is the one on the list that surprises me.

Eighty percent of the ones on the list are peak hour arrivals/ departures at key London stations (where there's either not spare capacity to improve things, or in the case of the Paddington and Liverpool Street services there are "bigger" trains on their way)...

...presumably this TPE service is a three coach 185 (couple of hundred seats?) which is fairly empty leaving Manchester Airport and fairly empty north of York, but the worst bit is the Huddersfield - Leeds bit? Whilst that does get very busy (I have a colleague who suffers it most days) it's still an arrival in Leeds before 08:00 (07:47 now, but the service runs seven minutes later now than it did in August 2011) - rather than one of the Leeds arrivals an hour later making the list.

Obviously the timetables have changed since then, but was this Middlesbrough bound train the first TPE service into Leeds for some time in the morning rush (i.e. before the fifteen minute frequency kicked in)? Or is there any other reason for this making the list when later arrivals into Leeds didn't make the list?

Hopefully the EMUs for TPE will see a big increase in capacity (bear in mind that this service would have had a four coach 158 a few years ago before the service was "improved" to three coach 185s!).

 

[pemma]

...presumably this TPE service is a three coach 185 (couple of hundred seats?) which is fairly empty leaving Manchester Airport and fairly empty north of York, but the worst bit is the Huddersfield - Leeds bit? Whilst that does get very busy (I have a colleague who suffers it most days) it's still an arrival in Leeds before 08:00 (07:47 now, but the service runs seven minutes later now than it did in August 2011) - rather than one of the Leeds arrivals an hour later making the list.

Obviously the timetables have changed since then, but was this Middlesbrough bound train the first TPE service into Leeds for some time in the morning rush (i.e. before the fifteen minute frequency kicked in)? Or is there any other reason for this making the list when later arrivals into Leeds didn't make the list?

I imagine like you say it is partly down to the service pattern.

Between 06:01 and 07:00 the North TPE departures from Piccadilly are:
* Hull
* Middlesbrough

Between 07:01 and 08:00 the North TPE departures are:
* Scarborough / Newcastle (portion working)
* Newcastle
* Hull
* Middlesbrough

There's also the Early Bird Season tickets for Manchester-Huddersfield and Manchester-Leeds services which offers more attractive fares for going earlier.

 

[Failed Unit]

The percentage over capacity figure is an interesting one to use. Which is the biggest problem - a two-car DMU service running at 60% over capacity, or a ten-car EMU at 30% over capacity? The latter has a lot more standing passengers!

People tend to get more upset when it is a short overcrowded train then a long one.

For example if I am travelling to Edinburgh and I am in an overcrowded 6 coach train then the TOC has done all they can (6 cars is the maximum the present infrastructure can do) However if I am on a 2 coach train an seem a bit more miffed - espcailly on a weekend when there are a lot of spare sets. (I know they need maintence etc)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The list in full (bracketed figure is rounded % over full capacity):


1813 Euston-Birmingham New St (62%)
1648 Euston-Birmingham New St (60%)

1746 Euston-Birmingham New St (52%)

Is this in standard and first I wonder. I suspect standard is full and over-crowded and first is carrying around fresh air. I am sure the 11 coach trains have relieved this, but I do like the point made before, converting a 1st class coach into a standard class coach could have incrased the pendo's capacity for a lot less money.

 

[Class172]

Is this in standard and first I wonder. I suspect standard is full and over-crowded and first is carrying around fresh air. I am sure the 11 coach trains have relieved this, but I do like the point made before, converting a 1st class coach into a standard class coach could have incrased the pendo's capacity for a lot less money.

1813 Euston-Birmingham New St (62%)
1648 Euston-Birmingham New St (60%)
1746 Euston-Birmingham New St (52%)

Are these services operated by LM or Virgin?

 

[bromleyboy21]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Failed Unit
Is this in standard and first I wonder. I suspect standard is full and over-crowded and first is carrying around fresh air. I am sure the 11 coach trains have relieved this, but I do like the point made before, converting a 1st class coach into a standard class coach could have incrased the pendo's capacity for a lot less money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattE2010
1813 Euston-Birmingham New St (62%)
1648 Euston-Birmingham New St (60%)
1746 Euston-Birmingham New St (52%)
Are these services operated by LM or Virgin?

All are LM services according to the report

 

[Deerfold]

Are these services operated by LM or Virgin?

These are all London Midland trains.

 

[calc7]

Are these services operated by LM or Virgin?

All LM. Virgin's Birminghams are 03, 23 and 43 from Euston.

The services mentioned are at times when Virgin picks up only at Milton Keynes.

 

[Failed Unit]

Are these services operated by LM or Virgin?

That would make sense - Oh well I got my rant in about the seating configuration for the pendo anyway

I guess like the tube we have got to accept some services will be overcrowded. I am surprised that some LO services were not mentioned.

 

[VT_Valenta]

Although not in the list, I'd like to add the Pompey - Cardiff unit into the mix. Pound to a pinch of **** on a Friday afternoon it is rammed. If there has been a ship arrival at SOU you can guarantee a hellish journey. Even worse a few weeks ago when it went down to a two car unit due to a train fault!

 

[pemma]

Although not in the list, I'd like to add the Pompey - Cardiff unit into the mix. Pound to a pinch of **** on a Friday afternoon it is rammed. If there has been a ship arrival at SOU you can guarantee a hellish journey. Even worse a few weeks ago when it went down to a two car unit due to a train fault!

You do realise that not every leg of every journey has an official passenger count and different seating arrangements result can result in different overcrowding figures on different days, so the top 10 is not a definite list.

If I take a MCRUA figure of approx 260 on the 2 car 07:17 Manchester-Chester which is booked for a 150.

If a refurbished ex-FNW 150/1 turns up that means the train is around 75% overcrowded and is more crowded than some of the services listed.

If a non-refurbished ex-LM 150/2 (with around 25 extra seats) turns up then it's 39% overcrowded and a long way off the bottom.

However, the busy section of Altrincham-Knutsford isn't counted by officially employed people doing passenger counts so the actual figure recorded would be even less than 39% overcrowded.

 

[tsr]

I am very surprised indeed that some Southern and FCC peak services are not included.

 

[jopsuk]

There's a fair bit of presenting myth as fast (such as the figures all being based on capacity being 135% of seating)- I'd suggest reading the DfT publication on the matter.

Only two of the top ten have a standing allowance factored into their "capacity", as explained on pages 3 and 4 of the report

 

[pemma]

There's a fair bit of presenting myth as fast (such as the figures all being based on capacity being 135% of seating)- I'd suggest reading the DfT publication on the matter.

Only two of the top ten have a standing allowance factored into their "capacity", as explained on pages 3 and 4 of the report

Includes the number of standard class seats on the train and may also include a standing allowance. No standing allowance is made for journeys of more than 20 minutes between the stations at the most crowded point. For journeys of 20 minutes or less, an allowance for standing room is also made. The allowance for standing varies with the type of rolling stock but, for modern sliding door stock, it is typically approximately 35 per cent of the number of seats

The point about 20 minutes is one I missed off.

The other point that I hinted on is also confirmed.

The number of standard class passengers on the service at its most crowded point on the journey into or out of the city

So they count trains where they think they would be busiest and miss out the exceptions.

And relating to the Virgin 390 capacity which other people have picked up on

The difference between the standard class passenger load and the standard class passenger capacity

And in big bold letters at the end

Hence the figures should be treated with extreme caution.

Not that the Daily Mail will care about that.

 

[Tiny Tim]

It's probably not very constructive arguing about how overcrowding is calculated. Nobody's claiming that any of these top ten jam-packed specials are acceptable. Passengers paying full price for these trains are having to stand for lengthy periods on every journey, there's no good excuse that the operators can offer.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It's probably not very constructive arguing about how overcrowding is calculated. Nobody's claiming that any of these top ten jam-packed specials are acceptable. Passengers paying full price for these trains are having to stand for lengthy periods on every journey, there's no good excuse that the operators can offer.

Depends if you class season tickets as full price tickets, when ultimately a lot will whittle down to less per day than a SDS / SDR. Further, a 'good excuse', as repetitive as it is would probably be lack of rolling stock, which ultimately only the DfT and government have power over. A lot is out of the operators' hands.

 

[swt_passenger]

The definition of overcrowded is defined as carrying more passengers than 135% of the seating capacity. It's a bit of a stupid one as it means trains with 3+2 seating are supposed to be able to carry more standing than ones with 2+2 seating when it should be the other way around.

That 135% figure is by no means a standard measure - as they say it is an approximation. Depending on the route, or time to first stop, some trains have NO allowed standing capacity, and some have much more than others that do, e.g. SWT's conversion of the 455 has a specifically enhanced standing capacity figure over and above the vast majority of other EMUs.

IIRC a lower figure than 135 % was used in the West Midlands at one time, but not now. As their overcrowding yardstick was different to the London area, it was leading to oddities such as 350s having different assessments north and south of Northampton...

(There was something on DfT's website about this a few years ago, as well as the other specific exclusions in the style of SWT's 455 - but it seems impossible to find now. I've always assumed they started with a clean sheet of paper for 378s, for instance...)

 

[jon0844]

It seems like the changes made on trains out of King's Cross has paid off - no more services in the top ten. I believe there were quite a few previously, no doubt helped by 'new' trains and more 12-car formations in the peaks.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Depends if you class season tickets as full price tickets, when ultimately a lot will whittle down to less per day than a SDS / SDR. Further, a 'good excuse', as repetitive as it is would probably be lack of rolling stock, which ultimately only the DfT and government have power over. A lot is out of the operators' hands.

Season ticket holders might resent the implication that as repeat customers they aren't entitled to the opportunity of a seat.

Passengers purchase tickets from TOCs, not the DfT or the government.

 

[ainsworth74]

Season ticket holders might resent the implication that as repeat customers they aren't entitled to the opportunity of a seat.

That is of course a different issue to the one you originally identified of:

Passengers paying full price for these trains are having to stand for lengthy periods on every journey, there's no good excuse that the operators can offer.

There is an argument to be made that season ticket holders are, on a per journey basis, not paying full price for their travel.

 

[dk1]

It seems like the changes made on trains out of King's Cross has paid off - no more services in the top ten. I believe there were quite a few previously, no doubt helped by 'new' trains and more 12-car formations in the peaks.

Same goes for West Anglia where Cambridge/Liverpool St services where always near the top of the hit parade.

 

[tbtc]

Are these services operated by LM or Virgin?

All are LM services according to the report

These are all London Midland trains.

All LM. Virgin's Birminghams are 03, 23 and 43 from Euston.

The services mentioned are at times when Virgin picks up only at Milton Keynes.

Whilst I appreciate that a lot of posters on here don't like 350/2s, this does suggest that LM require the high density EMUs on their peak London services (even if that kind of seating isn't needed on the quieter bits further away from Euston)

I imagine like you say it is partly down to the service pattern.

Between 06:01 and 07:00 the North TPE departures from Piccadilly are:
* Hull
* Middlesbrough

Between 07:01 and 08:00 the North TPE departures are:
* Scarborough / Newcastle (portion working)
* Newcastle
* Hull
* Middlesbrough

There's also the Early Bird Season tickets for Manchester-Huddersfield and Manchester-Leeds services which offers more attractive fares for going earlier.

Good points

There is an argument to be made that season ticket holders are, on a per journey basis, not paying full price for their travel.

There is - as the marginal cost of providing extra peak services is quite high (since the TOC cannot spread those resources through the day - some commuters are basically paying for their once a day "extra" service)

 

[6Gman]

It's probably not very constructive arguing about how overcrowding is calculated. Nobody's claiming that any of these top ten jam-packed specials are acceptable. Passengers paying full price for these trains are having to stand for lengthy periods on every journey, there's no good excuse that the operators can offer.

But if the section over which they are overcrowded is short then surely it's acceptable. For example there are TPE trains which are rammed out of Leeds, but have empty seats from Huddersfield. Can the industry justify extra units to relieve such short-distance overcrowding?

 

[Tiny Tim]

But if the section over which they are overcrowded is short then surely it's acceptable. For example there are TPE trains which are rammed out of Leeds, but have empty seats from Huddersfield. Can the industry justify extra units to relieve such short-distance overcrowding?

We are discussing the top ten overcrowded trains, none of them are likely to have much respite from overcrowding.

 

[pemma]

But if the section over which they are overcrowded is short then surely it's acceptable. For example there are TPE trains which are rammed out of Leeds, but have empty seats from Huddersfield. Can the industry justify extra units to relieve such short-distance overcrowding?

That's precisely why there's an evening Hull-Huddersfield service.

 

[455driver]

there's no good excuse that the operators can offer.

How about- " our stock is at maximum usage during the peaks so we have made enquiries to the DaFT for more stock but they flatly refuse to allow us any" is one answer I can think of.

But then its just easier to blame the nasty train companies than to look at where the real problems actually are.

 

[calc7]

That's precisely why there's an evening Hull-Huddersfield service.

Too late if you ask me - the worst overcrowding is about 30 mins earlier, and everyone crams onto the 1755 anyway.

 

[3141]

We are discussing the top ten overcrowded trains, none of them are likely to have much respite from overcrowding.

No. 7 in the list, TPE train from Manchester Airport to Middlesborough, almost certainly is only crowded for the last one or stops into Leeds, where the measuring point was. Something similar probably applies to most of the other services on the list. The ones most crowded for longest are likely to be those on SWT amd LM into or out of London, and for how long will depend on where the last stop inwards/first stop outwards is. That 0732 Woking -Waterloo takes 47 minutes for the whole journey but is unlikely to be crowded all the way. It takes 25 minutes to Waterloo from its last stop at Surbiton. It has 12 coaches so you cannot blame the TOC because it isn't longer.

I travelled to school in central London on the Underground and also to work for some years. I've used "crowded" rather than "overcrowded" in the previous paragraph because the Underground provides a dimension of overcrowding most other lines don't reach.