TPE and ATW acting incorrectly: incompetence or are they lying?

[YorkshireBear]

This thread was set up to ask if getting reasonable claims denied was a regular thing. Both examples below have been rectified. I do not have access to the original claims (TPE don't provide one) and I did not fill out the ATW one.

So due to the May Timetable change I am now significantly more experienced in claiming compensation for delays. Everytime there seems to be issues. Two particular examples below for information only.

I caught the 06:50 from Leeds to Manchester Piccadilly, due at 07:49. It was terminated at Manchester Victoria at 07:49 due to signalling issues. After 10 minutes it became apparent that there would be no trains round the Chord and so I walked. Arriving at Piccadilly (i am not a quick walker) well over 30 minutes late. The response to my claim stated that I could have instead caught the 06:53 from Leeds after the cancellation and that arrived less than 30 minutes after the 07:50 should. They took no account of the fact that the 06:53 doesn't go via Victoria, so how would I catch it when we didn't find out it would be cancelled at Victoria until we went past Miles Platting Jnc.

Secondly, my wife caught the train home from Swansea to Leeds changing in Manchester Piccadilly. The level crossing failed between Shrewsbury and crewe, the train was turned around. Waited then went onto Crewe and Manchester arriving about 90 late. The response to her claim was, the train you caught arrived into Newport on time therefore we cannot provide you with compensation.

Is all of this just incompetence or do the staff 'try it on' to see if they can get away with it.

 

[najaB]

Is all of this just incompetence or do the staff 'try it on' to see if they can get away with it.

Never ascribe to malice that which could be explained by incompetence.

 

[Gareth Marston]

To honestly and fairly answer your question we would need to see the full correspondence chain between yourself and the TOC's involved.

 

[najaB]

To honestly and fairly answer your question we would need to see the full correspondence chain between yourself and the TOC's involved.

Indeed. It's entirely possible that the wording used when the claims were submitted lead to the advisor reaching the wrong (from your perspective) conclusion.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

As much as I wouldn't put malice (i.e. trying to deny valid claims to save money) beyond the senior staff, I doubt that the junior people who undoubtedly handle delay compensation claims (at least in the first instance) are sufficiently knowledgeable to actually have any malice. Utterly unacceptable incompetence all the way through, I say.

The only time where I think it genuinely can be called malice, is where the refusal is based off an incorrect policy - e.g. Hull Trains' adamant insistence that split tickets are not eligible for compensation on all legs.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed. It's entirely possible that the wording used when the claims were submitted lead to the advisor reaching the wrong (from your perspective) conclusion.

Yes its all how you approach the task and what information you submit and how you present it that counts.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As much as I wouldn't put malice (i.e. trying to deny valid claims to save money) beyond the senior staff, I doubt that the junior people who undoubtedly handle delay compensation claims (at least in the first instance) are sufficiently knowledgeable to actually have any malice. Utterly unacceptable incompetence all the way through, I say.

The only time where I think it genuinely can be called malice, is where the refusal is based off an incorrect policy - e.g. Hull Trains' adamant insistence that split tickets are not eligible for compensation on all legs.

or simply that the information presented by the OP in their requests was missing pertinent information as to the journey undertaken. Until/unless we see the chain of correspondence we have no way of telling.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I am not going to post them as actually both are sorted out so it is unnecessary, it was just a comment.

I can't find the initial correspondence for TPE as it was all via their portal which appears to produce no record of what you actually said. However, it does let you look at which train you put and i put the right one, you have to specifically select it. As well as describe anything else, in which I talked about Victoria. Once i replied explaining the same as what I did in the claim they upheld the claim.l

My wife's I do not know as she did it, but she is not an idiot. When she put in her claim in she says she put in the delay description, missed connections at Manchester Piccadilly, so I am confused how anything she typed would result in Newport being relevant? No itinerary from Swansea to Leeds includes a change at Newport.

 

[najaB]

I am not going to post them as actually both are sorted out so it is unnecessary, it was just a comment.

Not really much to discuss then.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

or simply that the information presented by the OP in their requests was missing pertinent information as to the journey undertaken. Until/unless we see the chain of correspondence we have no way of telling.

That would be the correct approach for a starting attitude of "let's always assume the OP is in the wrong". The correct starting attitude takes into account the history of a poster (and the history of numerous train companies' competence, or lack thereof!).

 

[najaB]

That would be the correct approach for a starting attitude of "let's always assume the OP is in the wrong". The correct starting attitude takes into account the history of a poster (and the history of numerous train companies' competence, or lack thereof!).

"Let's get all the facts before making a judgement" is the wrong approach?!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Not really much to discuss then.

My actual post was meant to be asking is there a theme of this sort of thing happening. Not actually wanting answers to my actual journeys. I will amend to suit.

I am not sure why I should need to post my exact claim and in any case I cannot for any with TPE as there is no record I have access to. I am confident having taken the time to do the form that I inputted all the information correctly. The forms are not difficult.

 

[najaB]

My actual post was meant to be asking is there a theme of this sort of thing happening.

Is there a theme of companies getting delay repay wrong? Yes. How often does it happen? Sometimes. Is it due to incompetence or malice? Yes.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well never mind then, i was clearly a moron for asking.

 

[najaB]

Well never mind then, i was clearly a moron for asking.

No, you're not a moron. But there's not really any more that can be said than that in the abstract - sometimes it's incompetence, sometimes it's malice.

It's like asking "Do people have cats or dogs as pets?" Some have cats, some have dogs, some have both and some have iguanas.

 

[Haywain]

It's like asking "Do people have cats or dogs as pets?" Some have cats, some have dogs, some have both and some have iguanas.

And some choose not to have pets at all.

On the subject of delay repay, I have made a number of claims this year and all have been paid without any difficulty, even where connections or split tickets have been involved.

 

[yorkie]

I can confirm there is a great deal of incompetence at TPE's customer services department.

There is also evidence of malice there too, for example they have been known to argue when they have been proven to be incorrect and have been given correct information and have argued in a manner that is completely anti-passenger.

They have even argued against passengers who held valid itineraries and reservations, and have wrongly blamed retailers for their own failings. Their behaviour is totally unacceptable.

Unfortunately there does not appear to be anyone who can get TPE to see sense and get consistently good responses to customers, and I don't think they care if they get bad publicity.

If there is anyone reading this who thinks they can get TPE to change their outlook, I'd love to hear from you...

 

[185]

Can say that after six months, an ASA complaint, and an escalation to Transport Focus, TPE finally paid up at 200% the compensation due to me. Unofficially, I'm told staff are instructed to reject most complaints... totally at odds wit their franchise agreement.

 

[robbeech]

I must say I’ve never had a claim accepted first time by them, but have never had to do more than write back and explain that they are incorrect. That said this is a very small number of claims overall.

 

[pemma]

I can confirm there is a great deal of incompetence at TPE's customer services department.

Does TPE customer relations come under the outsourced First Group contract to Capita? If it does then it might be of interest that Capita are using an employment agency to recruit staff who only consider unemployed people who have undertaken a customer service course with them (whatever their background and qualifications.) End result is they probably end up with long term unemployed from various backgrounds who have done a short customer service course instead of people actively looking for a customer service role, including those already in roles looking to move to a different employer.

 

[185143]

Does TPE customer relations come under the outsourced First Group contract to Capita? If it does then it might be of interest that Capita are using an employment agency to recruit staff who only consider unemployed people who have undertaken a customer service course with them (whatever their background and qualifications.) End result is they probably end up with long term unemployed from various backgrounds who have done a short customer service course instead of people actively looking for a customer service role, including those already in roles looking to move to a different employer.

I think so.

A friend claims he rang TPE customer relations and was greeted with 'Welcome to Great Wes... err... I mean TransPennine Express...' (or something similar).

I've had little experience with TPE delay repay, but they've always paid the correct amount-even if I've had to wait a while.

GWR on the other hand... I was chasing a delay repay claim up for a while, and was promised a voucher for an amount approximately 2.5 times higher than expected was being posted out to me-and to call back if I hadn't recieved it by the end of the next week. I hadn't recieved it, so called back. I was then promised a voucher a bit less than the value I expected! I questioned this, mentioning the higher figure, and to their credit I received said voucher for the higher figure about 3 days later. Took a lot of chasing up though!

 

[_toommm_]

Can say that after six months, an ASA complaint, and an escalation to Transport Focus, TPE finally paid up at 200% the compensation due to me. Unofficially, I'm told staff are instructed to reject most complaints... totally at odds wit their franchise agreement.

It took me nearly that long for my claim, and they eventually paid up 300%. They still owe me £20 RTV but I can't be arsed at this point. The level of incompetence at that company is incredible. No connected work, they lack basic skills.

If I said to you my last name was Cox, any normal person would spell it C O X. But some smart arse there decided to spell it Cocks, meaning I couldn't cash my cheque!

 

[pemma]

If I said to you my last name was Cox, any normal person would spell it C O X. But some smart arse there decided to spell it Cocks, meaning I couldn't cash my cheque!

God knows what they'll come back with if you send them to the supermarket to buy Cox apples. :roll:

 

[185]

^^^ lolol you really couldn't write it

 

[Roy Badami]

I've had a VTEC claim denied relating to a journey on a day when the entire ECML was obstructed just north of London and IIRC my booked train was almost two hours late .

They simply replied that their records showed my journey was delayed by less than an hour. They just arbitrarily closed the case without giving me any opportunity to provide further information, and sadly I didn't have the inclination or energy to complain .

I'm assuming their justification is that, had I sought permission to board the train prior to the one my Advance ticket was valid on - which was sitting in the platform at the time, I would indeed have been delayed by just under an hour.

But at the time, the ECML had been closed for several hours and VTEC publicity was telling people to travel via the WCML. Station staff thought the ECML might re-open fairly soon, and that i would probably be better off waiting for the ECML to reopen, given the WCML would have been a considerable detour for my journey (London to Leeds).

I made the decision to wait and see how the situation panned out rather than making an immediate decision either to board a train that was clearly going nowhere due to a line closure or alternatively to follow the official advice to go to Euston to use the WCML. (I should point out that no one instructed me to board that train, and had I alternatively followed the advice to travel via the WCML I would also have clearly had a valid claim.)

With the benefit of hindsight, of course I made a non-optimal decision, although I don't believe I acted unreasonably. But given I was claiming for an Advance ticket on a train that was delayed by almost two hours on a day where there was a major incident (with VTEC advice being to use alternative routes) I thought it was so cut-and-dried that VTEC would accept my stated arrival time, and I didn't feel any need to give chapter and verse about my decision making process on the day. But in the event my claim was simply closed.

So, in answer to the OP's question: do I believe that (some) TOCs deliberately obstruct reasonable claims in the hope that people won't have the time and energy to pursue them? Personally, yes.

 

[Greenback]

I don't think that TOC's explicitly instruct their staff to reject complaints. That would invite secret investigations, whistleblowing and all that kind of stuff which is so beloved by the likes of Panorama and Dispatches. Since the railways are always a good target for the media, I think that such behaviour would have been exposed by now.

I think they will probably be quite subtle about it instead. It's not so difficult to create a culture where staff are keener to reject claims of compensation than they are to accept them. You'd need stats showing how many claims were rejected by period, how much compo was paid and informal team briefings pointing these things out and impressionable minds will draw their own conclusions about what they should be doing. And all without giving any specific instructions about the necessity to reject as many claims as possible.

 

[yorkie]

I've been told by a member of staff at a FirstGroup company that their systems are deliberately set to reject valid Delay Reoay claims automatically when the lateness is caused by the timetable unexpectedly changing since the date of booking.

It happens, but what can we do? I've emailed Panorama about some things before; they just ignore me.

 

[najaB]

I've been told by a member of staff at a FirstGroup company that their systems are deliberately set to reject valid Delay Reoay claims automatically when the lateness is caused by the timetable unexpectedly changing since the date of booking.

Alternative view: the system isn't 'smart enough' to recognise where the timetable has changed between booking and travel and the staff are too lazy to check manually.

Same result, but only one interpretation requires malice aforethought.

 

[pemma]

It happens, but what can we do? I've emailed Panorama about some things before; they just ignore me.

What about contacting the BBC's political reporter for your area? If a reporter for Look North escalates something it's perhaps more likely to be considered by the likes of Panorama than if you try to contact them directly. (The reason I say political reporter is because BBC North West seem to be using their political reporters for Northern related issues rather than the region wide transport correspondent.)

 

[yorkie]

I'm not going to continue to chase journalists and the problems with trying to get such stories covered in the media are too complicated for me to try to type up right now.

I've also had frustrating experiences whereby they do not want to report the actual concerns and try to dumb everything down.

Journalists do read this forum and really it's up to them to get in touch with us.

We have a 'Contact Us' form at the bottom of each post, so they don't even need to crete an account. If they contact me, and show interest, then I'll be happy to help, but I am not going to chase them.