TPE Liverpool to Cleethopes direct service: Thoughts and suggestions.

[tetudo boy]

As determined by the Manchester Recovery Taskforce, a direct Liverpool to Cleethorpes service operated by Transpennine Express (formerly and incorrectly stated to be operated by Nothern trains, due to a missprint) has been put into consultation both options B and C.

As C seems to be the most feasible option, this service could potentially happen.

The following is explained from the Manchester Recovery Task Force Public Consultation:

The Liverpool to Airport service instead runs to Cleethorpes, calling at Liverpool South Parkway, Warrington Central, Birchwood, Irlam and Urmston.

As for Option B, the Cleethorpes/Nottingham service via Sheffield to Liverpool becomes 2 services per hour, meaning there is no direct service from Sheffield to Manchester Airport – a move that is very operationally challenging at Manchester Piccadilly.

Stopping trains on the line from Warrington Central are split at Warrington rather than running through from Liverpool, and run at only one per hour off-peak, calling at all stations. This offers an improved pattern for most stations rather than the present pattern of alternate hours at some smaller stations. The two Liverpool-Sheffield services would call at the larger intermediate stations such as Birchwood, Irlam and Urmston.

As stated, Sheffield to Liverpool will have 2 services per hour, but the Liverpool to Cleethorpes service is supposed to remove the Liverpool to Manchester Airport service and divert the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service to Liverpool. This means that Manchester Airport to Sheffield and Liverpool loses its direct service, however, the consultation later states that there will be a cross-platform interchange (possibly the change between platforms 14 and 13).

This means that the Liverpool to Cleethorpes service could have a stopping pattern of this:

Liverpool Lime Street - Liverpool South Parkway - Warrington Central - Birchwood - Irlam - Urmston - Manchester Oxford Road (possible) - Manchester Piccadilly - Stockport - Sheffield - Meadowhall - Doncaster - Scunthorpe - Barnetby - Habrough - Grimsby Town - Cleethorpes

What are your thought's and suggestions towards this change?

 

[JonathanH]

What are your thought's and suggestions towards this change?

I think it ought to be 2tph Liverpool to Sheffield terminating with no extension to either Cleethorpes or Nottingham.

The Nottingham service could run to Hull and Doncaster to Cleethorpes could be a shuttle.

Running 2tph Liverpool to Sheffield with no extensions should provide a more robust service. Clearly the timetable on the Stockport corridor pretty much locks in the current timetabling.

Of course, where this falls down is that the current timetabling means the Cleethorpes and Nottingham services each cross themselves at Sheffield so it would probably be less efficient than the current service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm in favour. Good to see that Option C stops the Airport tail wagging the dog of the entire North West railway network.

One thing I'd say is that this means to me that both services should be TPE operated using double Class 185 formations, for consistency and to avoid the use of end-doored vehicles on Castlefield.

 

[cle]

I think it ought to be 2tph Liverpool to Sheffield terminating with no extension to either Cleethorpes or Nottingham.

The Nottingham service could run to Hull and Doncaster to Cleethorpes could be a shuttle.

Running 2tph Liverpool to Sheffield with no extensions should provide a more robust service. Clearly the timetable on the Stockport corridor pretty much locks in the current timetabling.

Of course, where this falls down is that the current timetabling means the Cleethorpes and Nottingham services each cross themselves at Sheffield so it would probably be less efficient than the current service.

I agree on Cleethorpes. Nottingham has to remain as part of the Norwich split. Plus this would be the only service between Manchester and Nottingham too.

If anything, I'd say let's get even more Takt and run 2tph to Liverpool-Nottingham (but that is a fair bit of Sheffield reversal). If not, then to simplify, 1tph to Doncaster (offers many connections) and 1tph to Nottingham.

Grimsby and Cleethorpes should be served out of Sheffield / Nottingham hub services.

 

[HST43257]

Sheffield to Man Airport is quite an important link, I imagine.

If/when NPR comes along, I’d give both of those services (Liverpool to Nottingham and Man Airport to Cleethorpes) directly to the high speed operator. Would then be able to go to Manchester Airport AND Liverpool, as well as Warrington on the way so less services on the route through Didsbury or on the CLC route via Warrington Central.

 

[tetudo boy]

I think it ought to be 2tph Liverpool to Sheffield terminating with no extension to either Cleethorpes or Nottingham.

The Nottingham service could run to Hull and Doncaster to Cleethorpes could be a shuttle.

Running 2tph Liverpool to Sheffield with no extensions should provide a more robust service. Clearly the timetable on the Stockport corridor pretty much locks in the current timetabling.

Of course, where this falls down is that the current timetabling means the Cleethorpes and Nottingham services each cross themselves at Sheffield so it would probably be less efficient than the current service.

I choose the direct Liverpool to Cleethorpes/Nottingham service since you have both the luxury of a direct service and changing at stations for connections.

 

[Glenn1969]

Is it definitely going to be TPE? The current service is only TPE from Manchester to Cleethorpes. TPE stopped serving Warrington in 2018

 

[Greybeard33]

I feel vindicated in that I have myself advocated this service linkage several times on RailUK, only to be met with a rather lukewarm reception. I originally proposed it way back on 18 December 2018, in the post below on a (long since closed) Manchester Airport thread:

How about this for an off-the-wall idea? Divert the TPE Cleethorpes - Airport service to become Cleethorpes - Liverpool, using the CLC line path of the current Northern semi-fast Airport - Liverpool service. The timings at Piccadilly match - at present these two services chase each other up and down the Airport branch.

This would remove 2tph from the Airport, freeing up platform capacity and reducing congestion between Slade Lane and Piccadilly. The (relatively) small proportion of passengers from Liverpool or Sheffield who want to go to the Airport would have a same/cross platform change on Piccadilly Platform 13/14 to/from one of the remaining 7tph between Piccadilly and the Airport.

Secondary benefits:

• Platform capacity also freed up in Piccadilly main shed
• 2 direct tph between Sheffield and Liverpool
• Fewer diesels under the wires on the Airport line
• Northern 195s released to strengthen other services
• Continued employment for more of TPE's 185s
• All trains to the Airport would depart from Piccadilly P13 - more straightforward for passengers
• No additional services along the Castlefield corridor.

Maybe someone on the Task Force has been trawling through the RailUK archives!

 

[tetudo boy]

Is it definitely going to be TPE? The current service is only TPE from Manchester to Cleethorpes. TPE stopped serving Warrington in 2018

Most definitely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If anything, I'd say let's get even more Takt and run 2tph to Liverpool-Nottingham (but that is a fair bit of Sheffield reversal). If not, then to simplify, 1tph to Doncaster (offers many connections) and 1tph to Nottingham.

I'd not say that what's being proposed is specifically not Takt, it's a clockface pattern. What would be really Takt would be to run a separate connection to Nottingham from Sheffield meeting the Cleethorpes and vice versa - the Swiss do lots of that. Often the connection is the local stopping service, while the through service is the fast one. Probably no great need, though.

 

[PTR 444]

I would suggest transferring Liverpool - Cleethorpes to EMR and leave TPE to run the Huddersfield corridor and north WCML. That way, the 185s could be cascaded to replace the sprinters and you could have them interwork with other EMR services such as Cleethorpes - Leicester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would suggest transferring Liverpool - Cleethorpes to EMR and leave TPE to run the Huddersfield corridor and north WCML. That way, the 185s could be cascaded to replace the sprinters and you could have them interwork with other EMR services such as Cleethorpes - Leicester.

That would also work - I just think (a) both should be the same TOC, and (b) they should be operated by doors-at-thirds units in formations of at least 5x23m (either 170 or 185 would do). That's not just about avoiding overcrowding for comfort reasons, it's because overcrowding slows down boarding and alighting on Castlefield.

 

[Fokx]

I would suggest transferring Liverpool - Cleethorpes to EMR and leave TPE to run the Huddersfield corridor and north WCML. That way, the 185s could be cascaded to replace the sprinters and you could have them interwork with other EMR services such as Cleethorpes - Leicester.

No traincrew depots to do that apart from Nottingham.

TPE you have Cleethorpes, Sheffield, Manchester Pic (Airport) and Liverpool as well as staff already trained on 185’s and the full route between Liverpool (CLC) and Cleethorpes

The Barton line is staying with TPE until atleast the end of this year anyway due to EMR unable to train traincrew for the route

 

[Llandudno]

I'm in favour. Good to see that Option C stops the Airport tail wagging the dog of the entire North West railway network.

One thing I'd say is that this means to me that both services should be TPE operated using double Class 185 formations, for consistency and to avoid the use of end-doored vehicles on Castlefield.

Agreed, clockface half hourly service between Liverpool and Sheffield, with doubled up 185s.

Perhaps the Nottingham extension could stop at Dore and the Cleethorpes extension should call at Hazel Grove?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, clockface half hourly service between Liverpool and Sheffield, with doubled up 185s.

Perhaps the Nottingham extension could stop at Dore and the Cleethorpes extension should call at Hazel Grove?

That's not a bad idea.

 

[PTR 444]

No traincrew depots to do that apart from Nottingham.

TPE you have Cleethorpes, Sheffield, Manchester Pic (Airport) and Liverpool as well as staff already trained on 185’s and the full route between Liverpool (CLC) and Cleethorpes

The Barton line is staying with TPE until atleast the end of this year anyway due to EMR unable to train traincrew for the route

Could the Cleethorpes and Sheffield traincrew depots be handed over to EMR along with the 185s? It’s not like those two have any other TPE routes running near them. Handing them over means you could operate other services from them as well, which would make sense with both depots being firmly in EMR territory.

 

[Fokx]

Could the Cleethorpes and Sheffield traincrew depots be handed over to EMR along with the 185s? It’s not like those two have any other TPE routes running near them. Handing them over means you could operate other services from them as well, which would make sense with both depots being firmly in EMR territory.

I don’t really see what the operational benefit of this would actually be apart from EMR having a depot at Nottingham. Cleethorpes is hardly EMR territory with them planned to only operate one hourly service from there on the Barton Line in the near future. I’d argue the opposite that Liverpool isn’t EMR territory and Manchester to Liverpool semi-fasts should be all TPE

Heavy maintenance of the 185’s is also based largely at Manchester (and York) and even if some of the class 185’s were to pass to EMR for the Nottingham service, I can’t imagine them moving to be stored with the 360’s, I could see them being stabled at stations or sidings overnight and rotated to Ardwick for refuelling, tanking and maintenance

 

[adrock1976]

In the Hope Valley Capacity Upgrade thread, I posted a while ago along the lines of the following:

1) Switch the present day Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes to run Liverpool LS - Cleethorpes via Warrington Central, scrapping the Liverpool LS - Man Airport at the same time.

2) The present day Liverpool - Norwich to be split at Nottingham, with the Liverpool - Sheffield via Warrington Central and Stockport section to be revised to run to Hull. This would provide a combined frequency of every 30 minutes between Liverpool and Doncaster via Warrington Central and Stockport.

3) The Leeds - Lincoln Central to revert back to the previous sections split at Sheffield. The ex Leeds to be extended to Nottingham, which would maintain the 2tph between Sheffield and Nottingham. Also, with no longer running to/from Lincoln, Nunnery Main Line Junction is only interacted with once and once only.

4) Introduce a Manchester - Nottingham Regional Express via Dore South Curve, calling Stockport (or New Mills Central), Dore & Totley, Chesterfield, then either Alfreton, Toton Interchange for HS2, Beeston, and Nottingham, or Derby, Beeston, and Nottingham.

 

[Whistler40145]

As determined by the Manchester Recovery Taskforce, a direct Liverpool to Cleethorpes service operated by Transpennine Express (formerly and incorrectly stated to be operated by Nothern trains, due to a missprint) has been put into consultation both options B and C.

As C seems to be the most feasible option, this service could potentially happen.

The following is explained from the Manchester Recovery Task Force Public Consultation:

The Liverpool to Airport service instead runs to Cleethorpes, calling at Liverpool South Parkway, Warrington Central, Birchwood, Irlam and Urmston.



As stated, Sheffield to Liverpool will have 2 services per hour, but the Liverpool to Cleethorpes service is supposed to remove the Liverpool to Manchester Airport service and divert the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service to Liverpool. This means that Manchester Airport to Sheffield and Liverpool loses its direct service, however, the consultation later states that there will be a cross-platform interchange (possibly the change between platforms 14 and 13).

This means that the Liverpool to Cleethorpes service could have a stopping pattern of this:

Liverpool Lime Street - Liverpool South Parkway - Warrington Central - Birchwood - Irlam - Urmston - Manchester Oxford Road (possible) - Manchester Piccadilly - Stockport - Sheffield - Meadowhall - Doncaster - Scunthorpe - Barnetby - Habrough - Grimsby Town - Cleethorpes

What are your thought's and suggestions towards this change?

The reason why the service starts/terminates at Manchester Piccadilly is congestion over the station throat, which is currently elimated by the service using the lower numbered platforms at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason why the service starts/terminates at Manchester Piccadilly is congestion over the station throat, which is currently elimated by the service using the lower numbered platforms at Manchester Piccadilly.

You're confusing it with the Piccadilly terminating North TPE services. The Cleethorpes runs via Stockport and so uses the middle platforms which go onto the Stockport lines. Today's services mostly used 9, with one using 10.

It's not his invention by the way, it's proposed in "Option C", the most effective "un-messing Castlefield" option put forward by Network Rail.

 

[Glenn1969]

The Cleethorpes currently backs out again and goes to the Airport. Or it did pre Covid. The MTRC document described this move as "operationally challenging" hence its removal in Option C

 

[Whistler40145]

You're confusing it with the Piccadilly terminating North TPE services. The Cleethorpes runs via Stockport and so uses the middle platforms which go onto the Stockport lines. Today's services mostly used 9, with one using 10.

It's not his invention by the way, it's proposed in "Option C", the most effective "un-messing Castlefield" option put forward by Network Rail.

Why then have I seen a 185 arriving in Manchester Piccadilly platform 1 and not ECS

 

[James Kevill]

So if the Liverpool Lime Street to Cleethorpes services will happen, will the Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes be withdrawn?

 

[Glenn1969]

Warrington and Sheffield will both lose 1tph to the Airport.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So if the Liverpool Lime Street to Cleethorpes services will happen, will the Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes be withdrawn?

Yes it replaces it as well as replacing the Liverpool to Manchester airport service via Warrington

 

[Glenn1969]

Does Liverpool retain an Airport service with the Chat Moss stopper at least off peak?.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Does Liverpool retain an Airport service with the Chat Moss stopper at least off peak?.

I think so yes

 

[James Kevill]

Yes it replaces it as well as replacing the Liverpool to Manchester airport service via Warrington

Ok. But what will people from Warrington Central and Birchwood do if they want to go to Manchester Airport now?

 

[Glenn1969]

Change at Piccadilly presumably

 

[JonathanH]

Ok. But what will people from Warrington Central and Birchwood do if they want to go to Manchester Airport now?

Change on Piccadilly or Oxford Road. Not exactly a hardship.