• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

Status
Not open for further replies.

sjpowermac

Established Member
Joined
26 May 2018
Messages
1,989
As I understand it the checks apply to Class 397 in addition to the Mk5a stock.

Given that there are seven Class 397s in traffic today, I wonder if the checks/remedial work might be something that can be completed fairly quickly?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

gimmea50anyday

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2013
Messages
3,456
Location
Back Cab
Priority given to 397s as they cannot be replaced with any other stock, whereas the mk5s can be covered by 185s, but yes the same problem was discovered on both fleets, something to do with the bogies I understand...
 

Scotrail314209

Established Member
Joined
1 Feb 2017
Messages
2,355
Location
Edinburgh
Looks like TPE are trying to push passengers off some of the short formed services by reporting them as full and standing. Several other non 68 workings have been reported as full and standing.

I hope this is resolved quickly as things do seem to have been going relatively smoothly for TPE
 

Jamesrob637

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2016
Messages
5,242
Looks like TPE are trying to push passengers off some of the short formed services by reporting them as full and standing. Several other non 68 workings have been reported as full and standing.

I hope this is resolved quickly as things do seem to have been going relatively smoothly for TPE

TPE have done the "full and standing from XXX" on Sundays for a few weeks now however this Sunday there appear to be many 3-car vice 5 or 6. Have units had to be pulled from Redcars to avoid cancelling Scarboroughs?
 

jaketaylor

Member
Joined
4 Oct 2019
Messages
106
Location
Darlington
I was at Middlesbrough train station a few weeks ago and a double 185 pulled in from Redcar to Manchester, 6 coaches for what looked about 4 people on the full train looked a bit drastic! Are they doubled up due to COVID-19? & do the 185s still do Newcastle runs or has this passed over to the nova 1 fleet?

thanks in advance!
 

Jamesrob637

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2016
Messages
5,242
I was at Middlesbrough train station a few weeks ago and a double 185 pulled in from Redcar to Manchester, 6 coaches for what looked about 4 people on the full train looked a bit drastic! Are they doubled up due to COVID-19? & do the 185s still do Newcastle runs or has this passed over to the nova 1 fleet?

thanks in advance!

All Redcars, Hulls and South TPE along with at least the majority of Huddersfield to Manchester and Huddersfield to Leeds stoppers are booked 6. Just one evening Cleethorpes to Airport is booked 3. I think all Newcastles are booked 802 Nova now. All Anglo-Scottish services are booked a single 397 - double 397s are in doubt right now.
 

superkev

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2015
Messages
2,686
Location
west yorkshire
As I understand it the checks apply to Class 397 in addition to the Mk5a stock.

Given that there are seven Class 397s in traffic today, I wonder if the checks/remedial work might be something that can be completed fairly quickly?
I wonder if Northern and Scotish sleepers, which presumably have similar bogies, are affected.
K
 

J-P_L

Member
Joined
7 Sep 2017
Messages
203
Location
UK
All Redcars, Hulls and South TPE along with at least the majority of Huddersfield to Manchester and Huddersfield to Leeds stoppers are booked 6. Just one evening Cleethorpes to Airport is booked 3. I think all Newcastles are booked 802 Nova now. All Anglo-Scottish services are booked a single 397 - double 397s are in doubt right now.

Leeds to Huddersfield stoppers are now booked 3 car and reverted to using P6 at Huddersfield. On the Redcar circuit all are 6 car apart from the 06:39 YRK-RCC and the 08:07 RCC-MIA is booked 3 car but is strengthened at Airport (space limitations on Siemens at York). The 185 diagram on the Scarborough line is also booked 6 car (apart from 16:00 and 17:00 ex YRK where is is split and both run as 3 car. Coupling again at York to form the 20:00).



I was at Middlesbrough train station a few weeks ago and a double 185 pulled in from Redcar to Manchester, 6 coaches for what looked about 4 people on the full train looked a bit drastic! Are they doubled up due to COVID-19? & do the 185s still do Newcastle runs or has this passed over to the nova 1 fleet?

thanks in advance!

They are doubled due to COVID-19 to help with distancing, they do get busier on the Leeds to Huddersfield corridor. Tend to be lightly loaded RCC-MBR even in normal circumstances with the majority boarding at MBR and TBY.

Newcastle’s are now solely booked 802s but a 185 can substitute if required (but not north of Newcastle).
 

DunfordBridge

Member
Joined
13 Apr 2013
Messages
600
Location
Scarborough
It really doesn't.

Pros and cons really:
  1. Class 442s (Mk 3 stock essentially) were proposed for the franchisee as an alternative to new rolling stock which was apparently good enough for SWR as they are using 18 out of the 24 examples ever built.
  2. The Mk 5A stock has been beset with problems, die to a mixed bag of problems with a very belated introduction into service.
  3. How quickly could Mark 3 stock be refurbished to include Passenger Information Screens and be compliant with disability regulations.
  4. Mark 3s have near perfect alignment with the seats and windows.
I know what I would rather travel on. Maybe they should have found a manufacturer to make stock to the same specification as Mark 3 albeit updated.
 

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
1,711
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
3. How quickly could Mark 3 stock be refurbished to include Passenger Information Screens and be compliant with disability regulations.
A very long time judging by how long it has taken for the XC, GWR & ScotRail HSTs to meet the 2020 DDA regulations. Besides, wasn’t there something about the Mk3 DVTs not being cleared via the Diggle route?

To be honest I think that the Mk4s would be a better suggestion.
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
Certainly makes refurbished Mark 3 coaches seem like an attractive option.
Pros and cons really:
  1. Class 442s (Mk 3 stock essentially) were proposed for the franchisee as an alternative to new rolling stock which was apparently good enough for SWR as they are using 18 out of the 24 examples ever built.
  2. The Mk 5A stock has been beset with problems, die to a mixed bag of problems with a very belated introduction into service.
  3. How quickly could Mark 3 stock be refurbished to include Passenger Information Screens and be compliant with disability regulations.
  4. Mark 3s have near perfect alignment with the seats and windows.
I know what I would rather travel on. Maybe they should have found a manufacturer to make stock to the same specification as Mark 3 albeit updated.
Mk3's are nearly 50 years old and recent events may reveal they're not up to scratch anymore. The only problems with the Mk5's are they were built by CAF and have inside frame bogies.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,879
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Mk3's are nearly 50 years old and recent events may reveal they're not up to scratch anymore. The only problems with the Mk5's are they were built by CAF and have inside frame bogies.

I don't see an issue with inside-frame bogies, really. The problem is that they were made by CAF, who, in the case of their UK products, appear to have built them to a poor quality on the cheap.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,300
Mk3's are nearly 50 years old and recent events may reveal they're not up to scratch anymore.
What is your problem? Every time Mark 3s are mentioned and you make reference to the Carmont investigation.

We could just as easily do the same for 80x collision performance after the Neville Hill collision and embarrassing derailment as a consequence.
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,004
What is your problem? Every time Mark 3s are mentioned and you make reference to the Carmont investigation.

We could just as easily do the same for 80x collision performance after the Neville Hill collision and embarrassing derailment as a consequence.

The Mark 3s are fine in terms of crash performance - not brilliant, not terrible. The focus of Carmont will inevitably be the HST power cars again, with their terrible protection for drivers and the way in which they've once again spread aerosolised diesel fuel along the length of the trainset.
 

DunfordBridge

Member
Joined
13 Apr 2013
Messages
600
Location
Scarborough
What is your problem? Every time Mark 3s are mentioned and you make reference to the Carmont investigation.

We could just as easily do the same for 80x collision performance after the Neville Hill collision and embarrassing derailment as a consequence.

I think I have opened a can of worms with my comments today. I think I might be missing something but I am not as diligent as I should be in paying attention to the forum.

If anything, an all-80x fleet would have been better in just about every way other than for loco-haulage enthusiasts.

Especially if the proposed electrification over the Standedge route ever comes to fruition. It would have made for a more homogenous fleet and I think Hitachi would have had greater capacity should Newton Aycliffe become overwhelmed. The IET seems to be the train of choice at the moment but I shall reserve judgement on the seats until I travel on one, if ever.

A very long time judging by how long it has taken for the XC, GWR & ScotRail HSTs to meet the 2020 DDA regulations. Besides, wasn’t there something about the Mk3 DVTs not being cleared via the Diggle route?

To be honest I think that the Mk4s would be a better suggestion.

I am not aware of issues with the Mark 3 DVTs through the Diggle route. I was thinking of Mark 4 stocks but I thought they too might have been restricted in terms of route availability.

Mk3's are nearly 50 years old and recent events may reveal they're not up to scratch anymore. The only problems with the Mk5's are they were built by CAF and have inside frame bogies.

A good testimony to their design. I am not expecting the Mark 5A stock to last over half of this period.

No idea what an inside bogie is and how it differs from a conventional bogie, but I know there is an endless clatter at the end of the carriage when I am sat on the single seats.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,300
The Mark 3s are fine in terms of crash performance - not brilliant, not terrible. The focus of Carmont will inevitably be the HST power cars again, with their terrible protection for drivers and the way in which they've once again spread aerosolised diesel fuel along the length of the trainset.
I suspect that obstacle deflectors will warrant a mention, as will the loss of survival space in the leading trailer when it rolled.
 

sjpowermac

Established Member
Joined
26 May 2018
Messages
1,989
As above, seven of the Class 397 fleet were checked and in service on Saturday.

I suspect the remainder will have been completed by now and perhaps even some of the Nova 3 sets.

I’m slightly nonplussed as to why a fleet being out of service for a few days results in so much criticism.
 

Roger B

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2018
Messages
896
Location
Gatley
If anything, an all-80x fleet would have been better in just about every way other than for loco-haulage enthusiasts.

Spot on. For starters: greater flexibility and utilisation of trains and personnel; reduced training needs for drivers, train crew, maintenance staff; fewer spare parts retained at depots; quicker introduction into service.

The unfolding covid-19 situation, and need for fewer trains, has partly masked the ongoing issues with getting the Nova3s into service - I understand there are still communication issues between the 68s and DTs. Although it's noted above that TPE have been short of units, they're still unable to put more than 3 out of 13 (under 24%!) of Nova3s in service on any particular day, many months after all sets had been produced.

The ongoing issues with CAF products in terms of design, build quality, reliability and travelling experience documented on the relevant Mk5, 195, 331, 397 and Scottish Sleeper forums compare unfavourably with trains from other manufacturers (putting it mildly). Add to that suggestions that design and build quality issues of CAF products are likely to result in increased ongoing maintenance, reduced availability and shorter working lives - not helped by the very limited and costly options for subsequently converting diesel only variants to bi-mode, and they start to look like costly purchases - and probably more expensive than other manufacturers when looking at total cost of ownership over their lifetimes. I can't help thinking that the owners and operators of CAF trains (ROSCOs, Northern, TPE, Scottish Sleeper, WMR, TfW, and whatever organisations succeed them in the post-franchise era), will be counting the increased costs of ownership and ruing the decision to purchase CAF products until they can get them off their hands. They may have looked cheap initially, but experience is proving otherwise. It appears than on the railways, as elsewhere, you get what you pay for.
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
What is your problem? Every time Mark 3s are mentioned and you make reference to the Carmont investigation.
I can count on 1 had how many times I've mentioned that. Also just because they were super duper with their safety 50 years ago, doesn't mean they're still up to standard today.
We could just as easily do the same for 80x collision performance after the Neville Hill collision and embarrassing derailment as a consequence.
That was also a serious issue and should be looked at but shouldn't detract from the point about Mk3's maybe no longer being the yardstick for safety. The Mk3 & 442 brigades need to wake up and smell the roses.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,808
If anything, an all-80x fleet would have been better in just about every way other than for loco-haulage enthusiasts.
Indeed, now that all the 68s have been used, even for loco-hauled enthusiasts there really doesn't seem to be any reason not to put these coaching sets out of their misery and just keep hold of the 185s.
 

sjpowermac

Established Member
Joined
26 May 2018
Messages
1,989
Although it's noted above that TPE have been short of units, they're still unable to put more than 3 out of 13 (under 24%!) of Nova3s in service on any particular day, many months after all sets had been produced

There are currently nine Nova 3 sets accepted by TPE. The fault free running trials of the other sets was delayed owing to the pandemic.

From the December 2019 timetable change there were four daily diagrams for the Nova 3 sets.

The reason that there are currently three daily diagrams is down to availability of train crew passed for the Nova 3 sets.

As I understand it, introduction of further diagrams would require training of York crews. This has been delayed due to social distancing not being possible in train cabs.

I hope that helps.
 

Fokx

Member
Joined
18 May 2020
Messages
721
Location
Liverpool
There are currently nine Nova 3 sets accepted by TPE. The fault free running trials of the other sets was delayed owing to the pandemic.

From the December 2019 timetable change there were four daily diagrams for the Nova 3 sets.

The reason that there are currently three daily diagrams is down to availability of train crew passed for the Nova 3 sets.

As I understand it, introduction of further diagrams would require training of York crews. This has been delayed due to social distancing not being possible in train cabs.

I hope that helps.

You’re completely on the mark here

The main issue with the Nova 3 is only 9 have been accepted, there’s communication issues between carriages and loco and all traction training has been suspended since March, and was only re-approved last week, for conductor instructors who are happy to take trainees and be regularly Covid tested. York depot also has a high number of trainees (I believe around 12?) waiting to fill vacancies which may also affect how many staff could be released for traction training and traction exams
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,879
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The IET seems to be the train of choice at the moment but I shall reserve judgement on the seats until I travel on one, if ever.

All the new TPE kit (both CAF and Hitachi) has the Fainsa Sophia seat in Standard anyway.

Indeed, now that all the 68s have been used, even for loco-hauled enthusiasts there really doesn't seem to be any reason not to put these coaching sets out of their misery and just keep hold of the 185s.

Are there enough 185s to substitute a double 185 for each Mk5 set without shortening anything else, though?
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
A good testimony to their design. I am not expecting the Mark 5A stock to last over half of this period.
As much as I am raining on the Mk3 parade, they have indeed stood the test of time, where as Mk5's will probably need a major overhaul in 20 years to keep them in service, and will probably mostly be on the scrap pile in 30.
No idea what an inside bogie is and how it differs from a conventional bogie, but I know there is an endless clatter at the end of the carriage when I am sat on the single seats.
The conventional outside frame has the frame around the outside, making the bogie heavier but usually providing a better ride. Inside frame bogies are lighter and cause less wear on the tracks. You could fix the issues by setting up the suspension in a particular way, which CAF clearly haven't (they use the same bogies as the 172's and I haven't heard bad things about their ride, so it must just be a CAF thing). - Ignore that last bit!
 
Last edited:

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
they use the same bogies as the 172's and I haven't heard bad things about their ride, so it must just be a CAF thing

Do you have a source for that? I'd be surprised if CAF had purchased EcoFlexx bogies as opposed to something of their own development
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top