TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[xotGD]

You say 2 sets stabled and cleaned overnight. Isn't the overnight cleaning the problem with this depot, due to loco engines running and insufficient (south side) noise insulation?

They will stable in the station. Like at present. That's what the OP said.

 

[coxxy]

Looking at RTT, some changes to the 68 Cleethorpes diagrams in Dec.

A set comes off Longsight at 0432 as 5B64 then operates:

1B64 0543 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes
5B73 0926 Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street
5B80 1319 Liverpool Lime Street to Cleethorpes
1B89 1724 Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street
1B96 2119 Liverpool Lime Street to Doncaster

Then goes onto Europort at 0006 as 5B96 for fuelling.

The set comes off Europort at 0511 as 5B60 next morning then operates:

1B60 0537 Doncaster to Cleethorpes
1B69 0727 Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street
1B76 1119 Liverpool Lime Street to Cleethorpes
1B85 1524 Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street

The goes back onto Longsight at 1927 as 5H85.

Still pathed as 185s currently.

5B73 and 5B80 were previously Class 1 trains, so looks like they're keeping a training run in beyond December which makes sense as plenty still need training.

Still don't understand why training can't be completed in passenger service

 

[PennineSuperb]

Still don't understand why training can't be completed in passenger service

Some training can be, but it’s all about risk aversion and all Driver tasks have been risk assessed to see if they can be completed on passenger trains. Completing tasks on ECS workings means that it takes place in a more controlled environment and training can generally be more comprehensive.
Take Driver door release for example, most Drivers will never have had the responsibility of checking ASDO and releasing train doors in service. Couple this with restrictive signalling aspects, stopping in the correct position, securing the train, passenger distractions, you suddenly have a mix of issues that a ‘new’ Driver could easily trip up on. All of this is risk assessed, and of course one form of mitigation is that good instructors combat this, but another is that workings are completed on ECS trains completely removing the risk from the passengers.

 

[coxxy]

Removes risk.. maybe so, but there's always risk.. if we wanted to remove all risk from training, then all new drivers would be training on ECS..

I seem to remember scarborough and manchester crews training in service when they were first introduced.. dont see why TPE are cancelling trains when they could quite easily run them..

 

[CAF397]

It's not just running them ECS for driver training. Due to training running late they can't guarantee that that train will be covered everyday as a passenger service. Keeping it as a Class 5 not only ensures they don't face cancellations on the day (or day before), but when they can resource it for training they can use it.

 

[68011]

Do we know yet which of the services out of Liverpool towards Sheffield are booked for 68 LHCS from next month?

There are no services from Liverpool towards Sheffield booked for 68 & LHCS other than 5B80.

Peter, broadly the info on RTT currently shows:
Class 68/Mk5a Scarborough-Manchester Piccadilly

running alternate hours with

Class 802 Newcastle-Manchester Piccadilly.

Scarborough depot is in the process of being recommissioned with staff appointed for a day shift. Two sets will work on and off the depot during the day, with two sets stabled and cleaned in the station overnight.

The locomotive diagrams would seem to work on a three day cycle before returning to Longsight (something that happened prior to the Scarborough depot being temporarily decommissioned).

I think this would give six diagrams per day on the north route, so a reasonable uplift and certainly a big improvement to services over the Pennines.

As to how deliverable that plan is from a staffing perspective, I’m not sure, since I don’t work for the company.

Assuming there are no changes to the plan there should be 7 diagrams on the North route but as you say how deliverable that plan is from a staffing perspective is anyone's guess.

 

[D6975]

I've just had a look on RTT and from the timetable change, everything is now showing as class 185 timings. Except that is for a few ECS moves. Some passenger services miraculously change to LHCS when they move to depot after terminating. Clearly the info on RTT isn't yet fully updated to reflect what is actually going to happen as regards motive power, but it does seem clear that there is generally going to be a 2 hourly SCA - MAN service with a 2 hourly SCA - YRK in between.

 

[Watershed]

I've just had a look on RTT and from the timetable change, everything is now showing as class 185 timings. Except that is for a few ECS moves. Some passenger services miraculously change to LHCS when they move to depot after terminating. Clearly the info on RTT isn't yet fully updated to reflect what is actually going to happen as regards motive power, but it does seem clear that there is generally going to be a 2 hourly SCA - MAN service with a 2 hourly SCA - YRK in between.

I'm sure it's been mentioned about a thousand times previously on this forum - but the timing load cannot be used to imply the booked traction. The only link is that the booked traction must be capable of meeting the timing load used. 185 and 68/Mk5 timings are identical (in the system) so the timing load doesn't give anything away here.

 

[68011]

I've just had a look on RTT and from the timetable change, everything is now showing as class 185 timings. Except that is for a few ECS moves. Some passenger services miraculously change to LHCS when they move to depot after terminating. Clearly the info on RTT isn't yet fully updated to reflect what is actually going to happen as regards motive power, but it does seem clear that there is generally going to be a 2 hourly SCA - MAN service with a 2 hourly SCA - YRK in between.

The reason all the South Route workings are shown as 185's is because there are no SRT's in the system for the timing load used by NR/TPE for the Class 68 workings other than between Doncaster EPT & Doncaster station, if you look at the Class 5's from/to Doncaster EPT you will see that they change timing loads at Doncaster station to/from DMU to/from Diesel Locomotive.

Basically, a schedule (especially a WTT one) cannot have missing SRT's therefore you have to use what's already in there which in this case is the timing load for a Class 185.

I'd imagine at some point in the future the SRT's for the Class 68 timing load will be input into TPS as they were for the North Route

On the Scarborough route it's as you say 2 hourly through to Manchester from the 06:48 until 16:48 then 19:48 & 22:45 which gives 8 through workings, there are a couple of Scarborough to Leeds workings at 17:48 & 18:48 ex Scarborough, the rest are Scarborough to York services.

All Scarborough line services are booked for Class 68's & Mk5a sets.

 

[CAF397]

There are no services from Liverpool towards Sheffield booked for 68 & LHCS other than 5B80.

Have they pulled the 2nd planned 68 diagram then? This would have been the set that starts from Doncaster, runs to Cleethorpes as 1B60, runs to Liverpool as 1B69, and back to Cleethorpes as 1B76 1119 from Liverpool. It then returns on 1B85 from Cleethorpes, and runs from Liverpool to Longsight via the Chat Moss.

The 1st diagram, whilst 5B80 is the change, also has 1B96 2119 Liverpool to Doncaster as a 68 working.

Those are still showing as Class 1s in RTT.

 

[D6975]

I'm sure it's been mentioned about a thousand times previously on this forum - but the timing load cannot be used to imply the booked traction. The only link is that the booked traction must be capable of meeting the timing load used. 185 and 68/Mk5 timings are identical (in the system) so the timing load doesn't give anything away here.

You don't say!!!

Did you actually read my post properly?
Read it again, you will note that I was careful to say 185 timings rather than booked as 185 traction.

 

[yorkie]

You don't say!!!

Did you actually read my post properly?
Read it again, you will note that I was careful to say 185 timings rather than booked as 185 traction.

The post is a fair and sensible clarification for anyone who is any doubt, though.

 

[CW2]

A couple of timetable anomalies:

5B60 is shown in RTT as running class 5 all the way to Cleethorpes, despite stopping at intermediate stations as if it were a class 1.

1B89 has no GBTT times shown at Irlam in RTT.
Edit: 1B69 also has no Irlam WTT times.

 

[BoroAndy]

They will stable in the station. Like at present. That's what the OP said.

I've looked at an example day late in December and appears Scarborough Tmd has 8 movements each day. 2 units leaving 8/9am, 2 entering later in morning, 2 leaving late afternoon and 2 entering at end of day. I wonder at what times the loco engines are running for the cleaning of the 2 units stabled overnight in the depot that leave for presumably the 8.46 and 9.46 departures. Also, is it still the case that the depot only connects to P1? If this is the case, things could be very interesting when steam/diesel specials start turning up.

 

[sjpowermac]

I've looked at an example day late in December and appears Scarborough Tmd has 8 movements each day. 2 units leaving 8/9am, 2 entering later in morning, 2 leaving late afternoon and 2 entering at end of day. I wonder at what times the loco engines are running for the cleaning of the 2 units stabled overnight in the depot that leave for presumably the 8.46 and 9.46 departures. Also, is it still the case that the depot only connects to P1? If this is the case, things could be very interesting when steam/diesel specials start turning up.

I’m happy to be corrected but I’m pretty certain there’s no overnight maintenance at the depot, so the two sets on the depot overnight are there for stabling only. I guess there would be time to fuel up in the morning.

Yes, platform 1 only for providing access to the depot.

 

[SteveyBee131]

A couple of timetable anomalies:

5B60 is shown in RTT as running class 5 all the way to Cleethorpes, despite stopping at intermediate stations as if it were a class 1.

...

ECS moves which are run as crew training trips do observe station stops. Perhaps it's planned to use 5B60 as a training trip?

 

[CW2]

ECS moves which are run as crew training trips do observe station stops. Perhaps it's planned to use 5B60 as a training trip?

Possibly, but I was going by post #1186 which shows it running in passenger service as 1B60 from Doncaster, i.e. 5B60 ECS from Doncaster depot to station, 1B60 from Doncaster station to Cleethorpes.

 

[D6700]

Possibly, but I was going by post #1186 which shows it running in passenger service as 1B60 from Doncaster, i.e. 5B60 ECS from Doncaster depot to station, 1B60 from Doncaster station to Cleethorpes.

A couple of TPE staff have said to me that, due to staff training being behind schedule, there is an intention for some trains to be shown as ECS - but may be converted to Class 1's on the day, should suitable staff be available! Sounds like this new contemptuous concept of "timetable of the day" has further depths it can sink to...

 

[Peter Sarf]

I've looked at an example day late in December and appears Scarborough Tmd has 8 movements each day. 2 units leaving 8/9am, 2 entering later in morning, 2 leaving late afternoon and 2 entering at end of day. I wonder at what times the loco engines are running for the cleaning of the 2 units stabled overnight in the depot that leave for presumably the 8.46 and 9.46 departures. Also, is it still the case that the depot only connects to P1? If this is the case, things could be very interesting when steam/diesel specials start turning up.

I have been knocking up the TPE diagrams to/from Scarborough in a spread sheet. I have done this via RTT for 12/12/2022.

I have noticed 5U72 comes off the TMD into platform 1 BUT 1U72 leaves from platform 3. I assume this is an error and should be shown departing from platform 1 unless there is some shuffling I dont know about. Otherwise 1U72 is fed from 1U59 and platform 1 ends up with two trains in there when 5U84 arrives from the TMD. How long is platform 1 - I suppose it could be receiving two class 185s ?.

At also appears that 5U84 and 1U67 cram into platform 1 before anything leaves.

I am probably miss-understanding something or missing something.

 

[Watershed]

I have been knocking up the TPE diagrams to/from Scarborough in a spread sheet. I have done this via RTT for 12/12/2022.

I have noticed 5U72 comes off the TMD into platform 1 BUT 1U72 leaves from platform 3. I assume this is an error and should be shown departing from platform 1 unless there is some shuffling I dont know about. Otherwise 1U72 is fed from 1U59 and platform 1 ends up with two trains in there when 5U84 arrives from the TMD. How long is platform 1 - I suppose it could be receiving two class 185s ?.

At also appears that 5U84 and 1U67 cram into platform 1 before anything leaves.

I am probably miss-understanding something or missing something.

Not all of the indicated platforms at Scarborough reflect what will happen, unfortunately. Hull is similar. Platforming is locally managed at both stations.

 

[sjpowermac]

I have been knocking up the TPE diagrams to/from Scarborough in a spread sheet. I have done this via RTT for 12/12/2022.

I have noticed 5U72 comes off the TMD into platform 1 BUT 1U72 leaves from platform 3. I assume this is an error and should be shown departing from platform 1 unless there is some shuffling I dont know about. Otherwise 1U72 is fed from 1U59 and platform 1 ends up with two trains in there when 5U84 arrives from the TMD. How long is platform 1 - I suppose it could be receiving two class 185s ?.

At also appears that 5U84 and 1U67 cram into platform 1 before anything leaves.

I am probably miss-understanding something or missing something.

Platform 1 is able to accommodate two Mk5a sets.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not all of the indicated platforms at Scarborough reflect what will happen, unfortunately. Hull is similar. Platforming is locally managed at both stations.

Ah ha, me trying to apply too much logic. Makes spotting the pattern tricky then !.

Platform 1 is able to accommodate two Mk5a sets.

I see. Thats a healthy length platform !. So its last in first out in the guessing game.

Are other platforms at Scarborough as long as platform 1 ?.

I have not dug deeply enough at the Manchester end yet. But given that Scarborough TMD is not (aiui ?) servicing sets anymore, I assume Longsight must be taking and giving some sets during the day ?.

 

[CAF397]

I don't think any 185s are booked to run the Scarborough route from December.

With regards to the 5B60 Doncaster - Cleethorpes. Can only assume this will be a sheffield guard, and their training has slipped lately. Doncaster depot moves are a Cleethorpes driver, so they haven mostly signed the traction now..

 

[L+Y]

I have been knocking up the TPE diagrams to/from Scarborough in a spread sheet. I have done this via RTT for 12/12/2022.

I'd be interested to see this when done.

And slightly O/T, between TPE North, South and TfW services, how many loco hauled movements will Manchester Piccadilly see per hour, I wonder? When did a large terminus last see so many diesel loco hauled workings?

 

[Iskra]

I'd be interested to see this when done.

And slightly O/T, between TPE North, South and TfW services, how many loco hauled movements will Manchester Piccadilly see per hour, I wonder? When did a large terminus last see so many diesel loco hauled workings?

Chiltern at London Marylebone?

 

[sjpowermac]

Ah ha, me trying to apply too much logic. Makes spotting the pattern tricky then !.

I see. Thats a healthy length platform !. So its last in first out in the guessing game.

Are other platforms at Scarborough as long as platform 1 ?.

I have not dug deeply enough at the Manchester end yet. But given that Scarborough TMD is not (aiui ?) servicing sets anymore, I assume Longsight must be taking and giving some sets during the day ?.

Peter, you are most welcome. The other platforms at Scarborough are of reasonable length but would only hold one Class 68/Mk5a set.

As I understand it, servicing at Scarborough TMD will take place during the day. Staff have been trained and the depot is ready for use (or will be very soon!).

 

[BoroAndy]

Interesting to see that no-one has commented on the last part of my comment #1244. With all the movement during the day between SCA TMD and SCA P1, what happens when P1 has specials sat there for most of the day, and on a few occasions has one stabled there overnight. I don't believe any additional sidings remain anymore, the nearest being at Seamer Station.

 

[blackfive460]

Interesting to see that no-one has commented on the last part of my comment #1244. With all the movement during the day between SCA TMD and SCA P1, what happens when P1 has specials sat there for most of the day, and on a few occasions has one stabled there overnight. I don't believe any additional sidings remain anymore, the nearest being at Seamer Station.

The line from Platform 1 to the depot has a loop clear of the depot adjacent to the turntable. Lock a charter in there (which probably has to go there to run round anyway) and you still have access to and from the depot.

 

[BoroAndy]

The line from Platform 1 to the depot has a loop clear of the depot adjacent to the turntable. Lock a charter in there (which probably has to go there to run round anyway) and you still have access to and from the depot.

Ah right.... That would solve it..... Except for one train a year, the Round Britain tour that stables full of passengers overnight in P1. I wonder how they will sort that, unless it doesn't go to Scarborough anymore. Or.... It departs before 0800.

 

[68011]

Have they pulled the 2nd planned 68 diagram then? This would have been the set that starts from Doncaster, runs to Cleethorpes as 1B60, runs to Liverpool as 1B69, and back to Cleethorpes as 1B76 1119 from Liverpool. It then returns on 1B85 from Cleethorpes, and runs from Liverpool to Longsight via the Chat Moss.

The 1st diagram, whilst 5B80 is the change, also has 1B96 2119 Liverpool to Doncaster as a 68 working.

Those are still showing as Class 1s in RTT.

My post that you quoted gave the answer.
There are no services from Liverpool towards Sheffield booked for 68 & LHCS other than 5B80 therefore all Class 1 workings from Liverpool to Doncaster & Cleethorpes are booked for 185's.
I'm sure all will be revealed in 2 1/2 weeks' time if not before.