TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[sjpowermac]

Exactly my sentiments, they seem to be simply throwing in the towel somewhat. Yet I'm sure many of us will still not be surprised if/when the reduced timetable starts to fall apart as punters shoehorn onto the remaining TPE capacity and timings are lost. As I've said over on the December 2023 thread, it feels very much like a dial back to previous years when the service was simply appalling and getting a space on some trains was nothing short of a combination of the dark arts and brute force. I for one will be going even further out of my way to avoid TPE as the service gets worse. And as the 185s move into their effective middle ages things might just get worse still.

Just as an aside, I can't help wondering if some within Northern lament the dropping of the idea of a Northern Connect brand. They could have gone into direct competition with TPE, with the strapline "You've more chance of getting there with us!". It certainly hasn't hurt National Express hinting that they can save you from TPE. Come to think about it this is a measure of how bad things are on TPE when a coach company using the M62 is vying for more passengers from them!

All excellent points. In addition, a quick browse of some of the GWR threads doesn’t exactly show the Class 80x units in a good light regarding availability…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2023 ==

No; it's a Craigentinny-Craigentinny diagram. 802s haven't routinely visited Manchester Airport on North route services since the pre-Covid timetable.

Ah, apologies, the last time I’d looked on RTT the workings I quoted were 802s as indeed they are today. But thank you for the correction

 

[D6975]

The WCML 802 diagram works

0812 Waverley-Man Airport

1204 Man Airport - Waverley

1612 Waverley-Man Airport

2004 Man Airport - Waverley

 

[Ianigsy]

Thank you for the info, most appreciated.

Same old, same old with TPE, it’s always ‘jam tomorrow’.

I can see TRU rumbling on for years and being altered along the way.

The jam in question being on the M62…..

In part I think 2027 is code for “somebody else’s decision once we know how TRU works out”. If you have Liverpool/Manchester Airport-Stalybridge, Huddersfield-Neville Hill and the last few miles into York electrified, you probably won’t need 50+ DMUs in your fleet.

 

[sjpowermac]

The WCML 802 diagram works

0812 Waverley-Man Airport

1204 Man Airport - Waverley

1612 Waverley-Man Airport

2004 Man Airport - Waverley

Thank you for clarifying, most appreciated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2023 ==

The jam in question being on the M62…..

In part I think 2027 is code for “somebody else’s decision once we know how TRU works out”. If you have Liverpool/Manchester Airport-Stalybridge, Huddersfield-Neville Hill and the last few miles into York electrified, you probably won’t need 50+ DMUs in your fleet.

Yes indeed about the M62.

Is electrification from Huddersfield to Neville Hill really due to be completed by 2027 (genuine question)?

In my mind, the unspecified options in 2027 are a bit of a red flag. More 185s is clearly not an option and will 802 still be an option at that point (again a genuine question).

 

[Bantamzen]

Has there been any official publication to support this claim, or is it a (probably accurate) guess?

The adverts dotted about suggesting that passengers use Nat Express instead of the train...??

 

[12LDA28C]

We had these years ago between Glasgow and Edinburgh - first top-and-tail 27s then 47s plus DVT. I don't recall reading of major problems with those.

Pedant alert - 47s plus DBSO, a recreation of which will be seen in Scotland on its old stamping ground once again on 22/23/24 September.

 

[ABB125]

The WCML 802 diagram works

0812 Waverley-Man Airport

1204 Man Airport - Waverley

1612 Waverley-Man Airport

2004 Man Airport - Waverley

Out of interest (and off topic, apologies!), this suggests that only 7 class 397s are diagrammed (assuming none run as pairs); why is utilisation so low?

(Although thinking about it, there's probably at least 2 tied up in the Liverpool-Glasgow workings, if they're running at the moment.)

 

[driver9000]

Out of interest (and off topic, apologies!), this suggests that only 7 class 397s are diagrammed (assuming none run as pairs); why is utilisation so low?

(Although thinking about it, there's probably at least 2 tied up in the Liverpool-Glasgow workings, if they're running at the moment.)

Without wanting to take this thread too far off topic, there is no 10 car running and a reduced WCML timetable is still in operation compared to 2019. There's only 1 Liverpool diagram (starts Preston Croft Street and finishes at Polmadie).

 

[ABB125]

Without wanting to take this thread too far off topic, there is no 10 car running and a reduced WCML timetable is still in operation compared to 2019. There's only 1 Liverpool diagram (starts Preston Croft Street and finishes at Polmadie).

Thanks

 

[sjpowermac]

Here’s a link to the Transport Select Committee meeting held on 6th September 2023 where the TPE MD is questioned about the withdrawal of the Nova 3 sets.

Some good questioning and very unconvincing answers.

Fast forward to 11:23 for the juicy bits…

Parliamentlive.tv

Transport Committee

www.parliamentlive.tv

 

[Killingworth]

Here’s a link to the Transport Select Committee meeting held on 6th September 2023 where the TPE MD is questioned about the withdrawal of the Nova 3 sets.

Some good questioning and very unconvincing answers.

Fast forward to 11:23 for the juicy bits…

Parliamentlive.tv

Transport Committee

www.parliamentlive.tv

Very interesting. One way or another TPE might still end up operating these trains especially if no other operator wants them.If the price is right? When it suits?

Remove the complexity from December. See how passengee numbers can be accommodated without them. Rebuild training levels to rstore a reliable timetable. Then negotiate a new deal with Beacon when there's capacity to train afresh for 2025?

Deployment t? A route that will mostly not be electrified for thei next 30 years. Sounds like South Pennine, separate from all the TRU, ECML and WCML issues.

They remain very noisy locomotives.


.

 

[sjpowermac]

Very interesting. One way or another TPE might still end up operating these trains especially if no other operator wants them.If the price is right? When it suits?

Remove the complexity from December. See how passengee numbers can be accommodated without them. Rebuild training levels to rstore a reliable timetable. Then negotiate a new deal with Beacon when there's capacity to train afresh for 2025?

Deployment t? A route that will mostly not be electrified for thei next 30 years. Sounds like South Pennine, separate from all the TRU, ECML and WCML issues.

They remain very noisy locomotives.


.

But as mentioned previously, not many noise complaints from the industrial units surrounding Doncaster Europort!

 

[Iskra]

Here’s a link to the Transport Select Committee meeting held on 6th September 2023 where the TPE MD is questioned about the withdrawal of the Nova 3 sets.

Some good questioning and very unconvincing answers.

Fast forward to 11:23 for the juicy bits…

Parliamentlive.tv

Transport Committee

www.parliamentlive.tv

Thanks for sharing!

 

[sjpowermac]

Thanks for sharing!

Most welcome

Some very good questioning and poor answers.

Interesting that there’s quite a bit going on in the background.

 

[Dan G]

Here’s a link to the Transport Select Committee meeting held on 6th September 2023 where the TPE MD is questioned about the withdrawal of the Nova 3 sets.

Some good questioning and very unconvincing answers.

Fast forward to 11:23 for the juicy bits…

Parliamentlive.tv

Transport Committee

www.parliamentlive.tv

Very interesting. Of the 13 sets, only six are available daily, and only two for revenue traffic given the lack of trained crew. They definitely won't be running from December, but might not be leaving the TPE fleet. However they're superfluous for projected service levels for at least the next five years; the 185s, 397s, and 802s will be sufficient.

If they hadn't have been delivered late and covid hadn't happened it might be different.

I thought the questioning a little poor; it's worth learning lessons from the past for the future, but what matters is the way forward.

 

[507020]

The 802 diagram on the WCML is to allow Glasgow and Preston crews to maintain competence on them. It provides the ability to drop an 802 onto a 397 diagram should the need ever arise.

But if we’re talking about simplifying the TPE operation, then shouldn’t this be scrapped in favour of an all 397 WCML operation? 397s to Huddersfield post TRU can’t be ruled out either.

Also, these substitutions are only possible due to the slack in the 802 fleet. If the 802s are more intensively diagrammed in December 2024, then there potentially won’t be a spare set available to replace a 397, so it’s a non-exercise.

 

[CAF397]

It also offers an alternative to get 802s from Heaton & Craigentinny to Edge Hill & vv, if and when the full Transpennine Upgrade blockades occur. Quite a handy alternative.

 

[sjpowermac]

Very interesting. Of the 13 sets, only six are available daily, and only two for revenue traffic given the lack of trained crew. They definitely won't be running from December, but might not be leaving the TPE fleet. However they're superfluous for projected service levels for at least the next five years; the 185s, 397s, and 802s will be sufficient.

If they hadn't have been delivered late and covid hadn't happened it might be different.

I thought the questioning a little poor; it's worth learning lessons from the past for the future, but what matters is the way forward.

The answers given were, I felt, economical with the truth.

There are five daily diagrams that do operate on a regular basis. There was a sixth (that ran most days from early June onwards) on the South Route.

To give the impression that only two or three sets are available is complete nonsense.

As I understand it, training on the South Route was almost complete when that route was pulled. There could easily have been seven or eight diagrams by now, with more to follow.

 

[D6975]

The answers given were, I felt, economical with the truth.

There are five daily diagrams that do operate on a regular basis. There was a sixth (that ran most days from early June onwards) on the South Route.

To give the impression that only two or three sets are available is complete nonsense.

Sorry, it's you that's talking nonsense.
I keep track of what's out on the North route because I'm planning a trip up there soon and don't want a wasted trip. Today there are 4 68s out and that's the most there's been in the past month. Not once in the past month have there been 5 out. Frequently it's only 3 diagrams with 68s and sometimes only 2. Frequently there are only 2 for most of the day with a third appearing in the evening to do the Leeds looper.

023, 026, 028, 032 are out today (07/07/23)

Yesterday was a bad day, one of those days with 2 out all day and another one only out briefly.

 

[Greybeard33]

I thought the questioning a little poor; it's worth learning lessons from the past for the future, but what matters is the way forward.

I agree the MPs' questioning was poor. Questions about the past mistakes in procurement and deployment of the stock should be addressed to the previous FirstGroup managers who made the decisions, not to the current DOHL managers who are trying to pick up the pieces. And DOHL was clearly not at liberty to discuss the post-TPE future of the stock when this was subject to sensitive negotiations between DfT, Beacon Rail and DRS.

The time could have been better spent delving into the reasoning behind the December emergency timetable and the assertion that the remaining fleet will provide adequate capacity for the next five years.

 

[CAF397]

The time could have been better spent delving into the reasoning behind the December emergency timetable and the assertion that the remaining fleet will provide adequate capacity for the next five years.

That's been answered on multiple platforms by multiple people.

The reasoning for the December timetable is to reduce the service to allow drivers to be released for training (routes and/or traction). It was stated the backlog is some 5000 hours, and by December 2024 the MD wants to see this down to around 1500-2000 with the ultimate manageable target of 500-1000 per year.

He said if they are in a position earlier to uplift the timetable earlier they would.

As for the fleet capacity. Although 13 Mk5a sets are leaving, only 5 or 6 have been in service. The new franchise plan of 2016 called for 21 185s to leave the fleet. These are being retained, plus the 802s aren't being heavily utilised at the moment. TPE seem optimistic that supply can meet demand up to 2027. Obviously if that's based on current demand, this is surpressed due to poor performance and industrial action. And the next few years with the blockades, fewer trains would have been running over the core Pennine route anyway.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Sorry, it's you that's talking nonsense.
I keep track of what's out on the North route because I'm planning a trip up there soon and don't want a wasted trip. Today there are 4 68s out and that's the most there's been in the past month. Not once in the past month have there been 5 out. Frequently it's only 3 diagrams with 68s and sometimes only 2. Frequently there are only 2 for most of the day with a third appearing in the evening to do the Leeds looper.

023, 026, 028, 032 are out today (07/07/23)

Yesterday was a bad day, one of those days with 2 out all day and another one only out briefly.

Four out when I have looked, which is more than the "two or three" apparently in the answer from TPE.

 

[D6975]

Four out when I have looked, which is more than the "two or three" apparently in the answer from TPE.

Two or three is quite accurate, although I would say that three is about normal, 2 is only occasional (about once a fortnight on average) It's never 5. (unless there's a set swap)
This week it's been 3,3,3,4

M	022​	028​	032​
Tu	022​	028​	032​
W	023​	028​	032​
Th	023​	026​	028​	032​

 

[Watershed]

The new franchise plan of 2016 called for 21 185s to leave the fleet. These are being retained

However, this is partially cancelled out by the fact that the Cleethorpes service has been extended to Liverpool (4 extra sets), the Huddersfield stopper is being extended to York (2 extra sets, assuming single units) and the Redcar service has been extended to Saltburn (2 extra sets).

The Hull service has also been extended to Liverpool (4 extra sets) in lieu of the Scarborough service which was (mainly) Mk5s, although it's uncertain whether this will return after the December cutback.

I don't have the details of the original plan to hand, but it might also have assumed some all-day single sets on Redcar/Hull/Cleethorpes, each of which should now be doubles, at least in theory.

plus the 802s aren't being heavily utilised at the moment

Not 100%, but the availability has never been as good as promised/assumed (GW and other TOCs who are pushing their 80x fleets hard are suffering from this). There's also one set which is still accident damaged following the Heaton derailment, and another which is (or was) out of service for battery conversion testing.

Unless the former Newcastle-Manchester Airport/Piccadilly service group is totally withdrawn in future, there won't be a lot of spare sets to cover for the withdrawn Mk5 sets. The net effect will be a loss of capacity.

 

[sjpowermac]

Two or three is quite accurate, although I would say that three is about normal, 2 is only occasional (about once a fortnight on average) It's never 5. (unless there's a set swap)
This week it's been 3,3,3,4

M	022​	028​	032​
Tu	022​	028​	032​
W	023​	028​	032​
Th	023​	026​	028​	032​

I’d agree with most of that and apologise for my misleading statement earlier.

From my own observations by sight, I’ve got the following dates as having five sets in operation.

12.08.2023
68020/22/24/29/30

14.08.2023
68022/24/25/29/30*

23.08.2023
68020/22/24/25/32

25.08.2023
68020/22/24/25**/32

*failure in traffic
**indicates set swop

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2023 ==

However, this is partially cancelled out by the fact that the Cleethorpes service has been extended to Liverpool (4 extra sets), the Huddersfield stopper is being extended to York (2 extra sets, assuming single units) and the Redcar service has been extended to Saltburn (2 extra sets).

The Hull service has also been extended to Liverpool (4 extra sets) in lieu of the Scarborough service which was (mainly) Mk5s, although it's uncertain whether this will return after the December cutback.

I don't have the details of the original plan to hand, but it might also have assumed some all-day single sets on Redcar/Hull/Cleethorpes, each of which should now be doubles, at least in theory.


Not 100%, but the availability has never been as good as promised/assumed (GW and other TOCs who are pushing their 80x fleets hard are suffering from this). There's also one set which is still accident damaged following the Heaton derailment, and another which is (or was) out of service for battery conversion testing.

Unless the former Newcastle-Manchester Airport/Piccadilly service group is totally withdrawn in future, there won't be a lot of spare sets to cover for the withdrawn Mk5 sets. The net effect will be a loss of capacity.

Thank you for a really helpful and informative post. I’d assume too that the Class 185s would be quite intensively diagrammed with not a lot of spare capacity there.

 

[Bevan Price]

The WCML 802 diagram works

0812 Waverley-Man Airport

1204 Man Airport - Waverley

1612 Waverley-Man Airport

2004 Man Airport - Waverley

That applies for Mondays to Fridays. On Saturdays, the diagram 2 hours earlier than the above times usually applies.
(The 20:04 Man. Airport to Edinburgh runs SX)

 

[yorksrob]

I see that the 10:11 Sheffield - Manchester is only three carriages today. Between lockdowns this used to be six.

The Department of Transport are a disgrace and an embarrassment to Britain.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I see that the 10:11 Sheffield - Manchester is only three carriages today. Between lockdowns this used to be six.

The Department of Transport are a disgrace and an embarrassment to Britain.

What a hyperbolic thing to say about a booked double set turning up as a single. It’s happened across the country almost every day for centuries. There’s hardly any relevance to the Nova 3s, because TransPennine Express have chosen not to use them (or good as) for the past three years. That is TPEs choice not DfT, and now rightfully, DfT are having these white elephants that aren’t being used taken away. TPE are solely to blame.

 

[yorksrob]

What a hyperbolic thing to say about a booked double set turning up as a single. It’s happened across the country almost every day for centuries. There’s hardly any relevance to the Nova 3s, because TransPennine Express have chosen not to use them (or good as) for the past three years. That is TPEs choice not DfT, and now rightfully, DfT are having these white elephants that aren’t being used taken away. TPE are solely to blame.

The loco hauled sets have been used on the trans-pennine network. They have provided capacity and enabled 185's to be doubled up elsewhere.

Quelle surprise that now that that capacity has gone, the single 185's are back with a vengeance.

I stand by my words.

 

[jonnyfan]

Sadly the Northern 195 fleet is more heavily used on the Cumbrian routes to run 6 car services, which means there are no longer spare 195s since the December 2022 timetable to strengthen Hope Valley services. Capacity now managed with higher priced advance single tickets. The dft and treasury will be happy. Less capacity, squeeze more revenue.