TPEs 350s - will they really help?

[Class377/5]

Technically that's not still the case. The previous government indirectly said 319s would go to the North West and Thames Valley in saying that refurbished 4 car EMU released from Thameslink would be used. The new government reworded that to say something along the lines of the EMUs released from Thameslink would be returned to the leasing operator and as a result of there being more EMUs available there will be sufficient EMUs available for newly electrified routes, leaving the door open for something other than the 319s to be cascaded to the North West.

Ah I must have missed that. I guess time will tell.

 

[WatcherZero]

That doesn't make much sense to me: There's still exactly the same amount of weight on the powered axles whether the loco is light engine or hauling ten coaches. If anything, you could expect greater wheelslip on a wet rail when a loco is trying to shift a heavy load. Class 90s can move like the wind when they are running light, not the sort of performance you would expect to see when they've got a full rake of coaches behind them!

The weight of the extra carriages increases wheel friction for the locomotive wheels (not from weight acting vertically but horizontally increasing the work required to turn the wheels) so that it doesnt just spin out from too much power to weight like a boy racer starting a car in 4th gear. In the old days when moving steam locomotives about without any cargo they would sometimes add extra coal wagons to stop wheelslip.

 

[Beveridges]

90s running light engine can do 0-60 in seconds, seen it myself a few times, completely different to when they've got a rake of carriages behind them!

 

[HSTEd]

I understand that these are just a stop gap, but do we have a timetable for the big combined TPE EMU order? Ie. when is TPE-North electrification projected to be complete?
Is it this side of 2020?

 

[tbtc]

I understand that these are just a stop gap, but do we have a timetable for the big combined TPE EMU order? Ie. when is TPE-North electrification projected to be complete?
Is it this side of 2020?

AIUI it's in CP5, so "by 2019" I guess.

No news about stock, but we'd need to see the franchise map changes first before you can make a judgement on unit requirements.

There's no guarantee that "TPE North" and "TPE North West" will be in the same franchise or have the same stock.

 

[Aictos]

So these 350s are only temporary for TPE North when they do get cascaded to London Midland when TPE get their own stock, what routes could they be best used on?

 

[tbtc]

So these 350s are only temporary for TPE North when they do get cascaded to London Midland when TPE get their own stock, what routes could they be best used on?

They may be to replace the LM 321s (which could move to GA etc) or just used to strengthen Euston services (or plug the gaps on Trent Valley services).

 

[pemma]

There's no guarantee that "TPE North" and "TPE North West" will be in the same franchise or have the same stock.

Or any guarantee that TPE EMU routes will see brand new stock.

 

[tbtc]

Or any guarantee that TPE EMU routes will see brand new stock.

There's no guarantee that *any* electrification in England/ Wales will see brand new stock with the exception of the longer GWML services getting IEP.

I think that EGIP (etc) guarantees brand new stock for Scotland

 

[RobShipway]

There's no guarantee that *any* electrification in England/ Wales will see brand new stock with the exception of the longer GWML services getting IEP.

I think that EGIP (etc) guarantees brand new stock for Scotland

There is also the Guarantee that ECML HST's will get replaced by new IEP trains when they come stream in 2017, as I believe the plane is for them to com on stream a year after the IEP's on GWML.

If Southern is being merged into the next Thameslink Franchise, is there a need for all the class 377's?

Another alternative if they not going to be used after the MML electrification, would be a pantograph version of the Merdians specifically the 5 cars being made in six car trains for the TPE service?

 

[tbtc]

There is also the Guarantee that ECML HST's will get replaced by new IEP trains when they come stream in 2017, as I believe the plane is for them to com on stream a year after the IEP's on GWML.

If Southern is being merged into the next Thameslink Franchise, is there a need for all the class 377's?

Another alternative if they not going to be used after the MML electrification, would be a pantograph version of the Merdians specifically the 5 cars being made in six car trains for the TPE service?

True, but the East Coast HSTs/ Thameslink 319s (etc) aren't the result of any new electrification.

 

[RobShipway]

True, but the East Coast HSTs/ Thameslink 319s (etc) aren't the result of any new electrification.

Fair point.....

But I can see either 319's or Southern 377's, once Southern has been merged into the Thameslink Franchise being used on services into Blackpool North after electrification possibly, but this is just a suggestion...

 

[Minstral25]

If Southern is being merged into the next Thameslink Franchise, is there a need for all the class 377's?

Yes without any doubt.

Simply as very few new Thameslink services will replace existing services that are not run by Thameslink already (e.g. Brighton Services) and the 377/5's when returned are already earmarked for doubling up the Milton Keynes services and other Southern services that are grossly overcrowded at the moment.

 

[RobShipway]

Yes without any doubt.

Simply as very few new Thameslink services will replace existing services that are not run by Thameslink already (e.g. Brighton Services) and the 377/5's when returned are already earmarked for doubling up the Milton Keynes services and other Southern services that are grossly overcrowded at the moment.

Thanks Minstral. That will make it interesting if the new Thameslink franchise drivers have to cross train on both 377's and the Siemens Thameslink trains.

 

[JohnB57]

The weight of the extra carriages increases wheel friction for the locomotive wheels (not from weight acting vertically but horizontally increasing the work required to turn the wheels) so that it doesnt just spin out from too much power to weight like a boy racer starting a car in 4th gear. In the old days when moving steam locomotives about without any cargo they would sometimes add extra coal wagons to stop wheelslip.

This sounded all wrong to me, so I have looked, in vain, for any articles that back up what you say. I think you've got a couple of things mixed up. A trailing load would not result in additional friction on the loco driving wheels (although total wheel friction would increase enormously), but having got the train moving, momentum would help to reduce the possibility of wheelslip. Loose coupled goods trains depended on gradually increasing load and momentum for similar reasons.

"A boy racer starting a car in 4th gear" is highly unlikely to result in spinning the wheels as however powerful the car, the high gearing would reduce the torque at the wheels, and it's torque, not just power that causes wheelspin in cars and wheelslip on locos. Poor torque control, light weight and low gearing would be the surest recipe.

If you think this is wrong, please link to any appropriate information that might back up what you say. I couldn't find any.

Sorry to go off topic guys...

 

[Class377/5]

Thanks Minstral. That will make it interesting if the new Thameslink franchise drivers have to cross train on both 377's and the Siemens Thameslink trains.

Why? Some drivers currently on Thameslink have had to learn 317, 319 and 377's. Knowing only two stock is what all Thmeslink drivers currently know.

Note as well there could be enough 377's displaced to remove or reduce the 313, 442 or 455 fleetslowering the 'Southern' drivers fleet knowledge.

 

[pemma]

There's no guarantee that *any* electrification in England/ Wales will see brand new stock with the exception of the longer GWML services getting IEP.

I think that EGIP (etc) guarantees brand new stock for Scotland

I think we can say that it'll be very unlikely if Manchester Airport to Scotland was to get cascaded stock considering 10 class 350s have been ordered.

I imagine how many other new EMUs are ordered for newly electrified lines will depend how far the IEP programme goes. There's possibilities for commuter IEP replacing 365s and the 350s on Northampton-Euston. So if that goes ahead then those units will need new homes, if it doesn't then we'll need more new EMUs for elsewhere.

Everyone seems to be suggesting LM will get the TPE 350s in the long term. However, I think it wouldn't be impossible to see 7 or so 350/1s cascaded north for Liverpool-Scotland portion working and some strengthening on Manchester Airport services which don't contain a Liverpool portion.

 

[tbtc]

I think we can say that it'll be very unlikely if Manchester Airport to Scotland was to get cascaded stock considering 10 class 350s have been ordered.

I imagine how many other new EMUs are ordered for newly electrified lines will depend how far the IEP programme goes. There's possibilities for commuter IEP replacing 365s and the 350s on Northampton-Euston. So if that goes ahead then those units will need new homes, if it doesn't then we'll need more new EMUs for elsewhere.

Everyone seems to be suggesting LM will get the TPE 350s in the long term. However, I think it wouldn't be impossible to see 7 or so 350/1s cascaded north for Liverpool-Scotland portion working and some strengthening on Manchester Airport services which don't contain a Liverpool portion.

The surprisingly ambitious/generous plans for CP5 will definitely require more new units for electrified lines (rather than just the cascaded 319s). But (other than IEP for the GWML) the stock used is anyone's guess.

There's a logic to LM getting the "TPE" 350s (since that'd replace their 321s - which could go to other TOCs with 321s - depending on who gets the thirteen FCC ones). But then, as you say, if LM are getting IEPs then that transfer could go the other way (like the various transfer suggestions for LM 323s to go to Northern or Northern 323s to go to LM).

But as for any other line... dunno. For example the MML could get brand new stock, keep its 222s (with panto coaches) or get cascaded stock from elsewhere (redundant 225 sets from the ECML if it gets a full allocation of IEP?).

 

[pemma]

But as for any other line... dunno. For example the MML could get brand new stock, keep its 222s (with panto coaches) or get cascaded stock from elsewhere (redundant 225 sets from the ECML if it gets a full allocation of IEP?).

With the mainline routes being electrified (GWML and MML) there does seem some logic in using bi-mode trains then the wires can come in to use as each section is done, opposed to waiting for the whole mainline to be wired before using the overhead wires.