TPExpress Man - Scotland

[158756]

It seems likely that there will be 2tph EMU express from Manchester to Wigan Northwestern - 1tph to Blackpool North and 1tph to Lancaster. Combined with Lostock and Atherton services that should be enough without TPE.

If Blackpool services go that way they surely won't stop, seeing as they'll be promptly withdrawn once Bolton electrification is completed.

 

[Bovverboy]

TBirdFrank said: ↑
Take a look at the service pattern. You can get from Waverley to Manchester as late as an eight o clock departure - albeit a midnight arrival.

TBirdFrank seems to have (unintentionally I'm sure) done TPE a disservice in indicating that it takes four hours to get from Edinburgh to Manchester, in mid-evening. In fact the scheduled time from Waverley to Piccadilly is 3h 14m. (Depart 2014, arrive 2328).

Actually there's a 2215 departure from Edinburgh arriving into Manchester at approximately 0200.

0159 arr Piccadilly to be precise, taking a full half-hour longer than the 2014. Some sections are painful (dep Lockerbie to dep Carlisle 31 mins, cf. 22 mins; pass Tebay to pass Lancaster 45 mins, cf. pass Tebay to dep Lancaster 26 mins). Anyone know why this journey needs to take so long?

 

[Bovverboy]

To partially answer my own question, the nine minutes of slack between Lockerbie and Carlisle enables the 2113 ex-Glasgow (via Dumfries - SR) to connect at Carlisle. As mentioned by Matthew S.
(TPE could leave Edinburgh ten minutes later? No?)

 

[driver9000]

TBirdFrank seems to have (unintentionally I'm sure) done TPE a disservice in indicating that it takes four hours to get from Edinburgh to Manchester, in mid-evening. In fact the scheduled time from Waverley to Piccadilly is 3h 14m. (Depart 2014, arrive 2328).



0159 arr Piccadilly to be precise, taking a full half-hour longer than the 2014. Some sections are painful (dep Lockerbie to dep Carlisle 31 mins, cf. 22 mins; pass Tebay to pass Lancaster 45 mins, cf. pass Tebay to dep Lancaster 26 mins). Anyone know why this journey needs to take so long?

It has to slot in around existing freight services which it catches up with. The reality has been more or less on time at Lockerbie, 15 minutes early arrival at Carlisle and 25 minutes early at Preston is the record so far. The freight is either looped or held back to allow the passenger train get ahead although it can end up held outside Preston for 10-15 minutes as it is booked through platform 4 which is the same platform the Sleeper uses at 01:00.

 

[route101]

Actually there's a 2215 departure from Edinburgh arriving into Manchester at approximately 0200. It is possible to catch a Scotrail from Glasgow at 2113 and connect with that same TPE at Carlisle.

Conversely there is a direct service to Glasgow from Manchester far earlier in the morning than to Edinburgh, so swings and roundabouts.

Glasgows last TPE to Manchester is at 1847 and Edinburghs is at 2215 .
Last Manchester to Glasgow TPE is at 2115 .
I do wonder how busy these late services are .

 

[route101]

Also if you are booking through to Aberdeen, Dundee, Perth or Inverness you will often get an itinerary routing you via Haymarket, and avoiding the awkward transfer from Glasgow Central to Queen Street.

Hoping you have a seat reservations as quite often busy coming from Waverley .

 

[driver9000]

Glasgows last TPE to Manchester is at 1847 and Edinburghs is at 2215 .
Last Manchester to Glasgow TPE is at 2115 .
I do wonder how busy these late services are .

Less than half loaded generally with the 22:15 from Edinburgh carrying 20 at most so far but generally less than 10. It will probably pick up when holiday season starts.

Also worth noting that the 21:15 Manchester to Glasgow starts from the Airport at 21:00.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

We are off topic now but there is no capacity through the Castlefield corridor until Piccadilly platforms 15-16 are built (if they are). More services to or through Victoria might be possible.

I believe there is still an unused freight path. Whether or not a FOC holds contingent rights to it is another matter. In the short to medium turn it could well be that Salford Central becomes an interchange to supplement Salford Crescent.

TfGM and Greater Manchester Combined Authority have earmarked the line for future tram train use connecting to Piccadilly and the Glossop line through a tunneled third city crossing.

Any source for this? I know at one point TfGM were talking of a ridiculous grand vision of tram-trains operating over almost every single mainline route in/out of Manchester but I doubt they will ever get funding for such a scheme regardless of how successful they have been at getting money for Metrolink. And a tunneled city crossing seems even less realistic now Ordsall chord exists.

It makes sense for Wigan to have an express service to Piccadilly by Northern now that TPE have shown there is a market and there being no immediate prospect of a fast electric service via Lostock. TPE really should try to avoid serving commuters if Northern can. It seems likely that there will be 2tph EMU express from Manchester to Wigan Northwestern - 1tph to Blackpool North and 1tph to Lancaster. Combined with Lostock and Atherton services that should be enough without TPE.

From a personal POV such a service would be nice but I don't think that Wigan "deserves" such a service any more than any other of Manchester's satellite towns. One can certainly exist if a stop happens to be provided on longer distance services in the same way as happens at Stockport. Just a question of balancing the needs for capacity. As for TPE trying to avoid carrying commuters that's exactly what happens on their core routes so why should this be any different? Ultimately the decision is down to those who specify the franchise.

 

[Chester1]

Any source for this? I know at one point TfGM were talking of a ridiculous grand vision of tram-trains operating over almost every single mainline route in/out of Manchester but I doubt they will ever get funding for such a scheme regardless of how successful they have been at getting money for Metrolink. And a tunneled city crossing seems even less realistic now Ordsall chord exists.

I can't find the original source but the recent TfGM 2040 strategy is dependent on a third city crossing for capacity in the 2030s, stating it would most likely be tunneled. It narrows down the tram train options to Wigan via Atherton in the north and Altrincham, Stockport, Marple and Glossop in the south. I could have sworn I have read a report arguing for a north west - south east tunnel axis. The 2013 tram train strategy proposes Altrincham services as cross city extensions to Marple or Glossop not heading north from the city centre.

 

[Peter0124]

Edinburgh to Manchester is 9 trains per day whilst Glasgow to Manchester is 8 trains per day
However Manchester to Edinburgh is 8 trains per day whilst Manchester to Glasgow is 9 trains per day

Very weird as it seems there is more Edinburgh-Manchester but more Manchester-Glasgow

 

[Starmill]

Conversely there is a direct service to Glasgow from Manchester far earlier in the morning than to Edinburgh, so swings and roundabouts.

That service calls specially at Carstairs to connect with a ScotRail service to Edinburgh. It's quite convenient and provides a pre-0900 arrival.

 

[route101]

Less than half loaded generally with the 22:15 from Edinburgh carrying 20 at most so far but generally less than 10. It will probably pick up when holiday season starts.

Also worth noting that the 21:15 Manchester to Glasgow starts from the Airport at 21:00.

Id imagine when the festival is on it will be popular .Late trains are great if you stay near the station .

 

[TBirdFrank]

What stupefying arrogant bollocks! Typical of the transport planners of today who haven't got an earthly clue about how normal human beings live! Are you really saying that a wait of over two hours in Carlisle at the dead of night is a service! I can comfortably drive home in under two hours from Carlisle - why would I use a train for any part of the journey?

 

[Bovverboy]

What stupefying arrogant bollocks! Typical of the transport planners of today who haven't got an earthly clue about how normal human beings live! Are you really saying that a wait of over two hours in Carlisle at the dead of night is a service! I can comfortably drive home in under two hours from Carlisle - why would I use a train for any part of the journey?

Where is there a wait of over two hours in Carlisle?

 

[BMIFlyer]

What stupefying arrogant bollocks! Typical of the transport planners of today who haven't got an earthly clue about how normal human beings live! Are you really saying that a wait of over two hours in Carlisle at the dead of night is a service! I can comfortably drive home in under two hours from Carlisle - why would I use a train for any part of the journey?

What on earth are you moaning about exactly?

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
0159 arr Piccadilly to be precise, taking a full half-hour longer than the 2014. Some sections are painful (dep Lockerbie to dep Carlisle 31 mins, cf. 22 mins; pass Tebay to pass Lancaster 45 mins, cf. pass Tebay to dep Lancaster 26 mins). Anyone know why this journey needs to take so long?

It has to slot in around existing freight services which it catches up with.

I did look to see if there were any freights which might get in the way, but didn't find any.

The reality has been more or less on time at Lockerbie, 15 minutes early arrival at Carlisle and 25 minutes early at Preston is the record so far. The freight is either looped or held back to allow the passenger train get ahead although it can end up held outside Preston for 10-15 minutes as it is booked through platform 4 which is the same platform the Sleeper uses at 01:00.

If the TPE is 25 minutes early into Preston, which platform does it use?

 

[driver9000]

If the TPE is 25 minutes early into Preston, which platform does it use?

Whichever platform is free. It tends to fill up at night with empties and there is a couple of freight workings booked through in the period leading up to the 01:13 arrival from Edinburgh. With various line closires overnight they like to keep through roads as clear as possible.

The TPE follows a container train which is officially 30 minutes ahead but it catches up with it and at least once last week followed in its vapour trail at a sedate pace from Carnforth. It also briefly caught up with a fuel tank train between Lamington and Abington.

 

[Philip]

Just a quick (off topic) question relating to the Atherton line being discussed earlier...what was top speed of the 'fast lines' when they were in use?

 

[WatcherZero]

Cant see It having been more than 70?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Just a quick (off topic) question relating to the Atherton line being discussed earlier...what was top speed of the 'fast lines' when they were in use?

Cant see It having been more than 70?

I was once told that 70 was the limit even after reduction to a 2-track railway. The condition of the jointed track deteriorated such that the limit had to come down to 50 though the similarly jointed tracks on the Southport line remained at 70, doubtless due to being less heavily trafficked. Ironically all the jointed track has been replaced but the limits remain unchanged. I did hear that the Atherton line would go up to 60 after CWR was installed but this never happened. The cynic in me thinks that Network Rail was expecting TfGM to pay for the slightly higher maintenance regime required to go with the higher speed and were turned down... maybe there was more to it.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah 70 was the number bouncing round the back of my head but I couldn't remember for certain or say where I had seen it.

 

[TBirdFrank]

What on earth are you moaning about exactly?

As you appear to be incapable of reading timetables :-
Timetable 65 - Up - Mondays to Fridays
GLC d 20.10 - last southbound of the night
CAR a 21.24
CAR d 23.45 TPE ex EDI
MAN a 01.59

I think even you should be able to see some 141 minutes at Carlisle. As I said - what kind of normal human being calls that a service, or are you suggesting ticketing GLQ/EDI/CAR/MAN which is even barmier!

 

[skifans]

What on earth are you moaning about exactly?

As you appear to be incapable of reading timetables :-
Timetable 65 - Up - Mondays to Fridays
GLC d 20.10 - last southbound of the night
CAR a 21.24
CAR d 23.45 TPE ex EDI
MAN a 01.59

I think even you should be able to see some 141 minutes at Carlisle. As I said - what kind of normal human being calls that a service, or are you suggesting ticketing GLQ/EDI/CAR/MAN which is even barmier!

Isn't there a 2113 from Glasgow? Reaches Carlisle at 2337. Rather good connection really, personal preference but I'd rather have one a few minutes longer incase something goes a little off, especially for the last train of the day.

Edit: RTT link: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G10815/2018/02/26/advanced

 

[berneyarms]

What on earth are you moaning about exactly?

As you appear to be incapable of reading timetables :-
Timetable 65 - Up - Mondays to Fridays
GLC d 20.10 - last southbound of the night
CAR a 21.24
CAR d 23.45 TPE ex EDI
MAN a 01.59

I think even you should be able to see some 141 minutes at Carlisle. As I said - what kind of normal human being calls that a service, or are you suggesting ticketing GLQ/EDI/CAR/MAN which is even barmier!

I think it may be you that might need to look at the timetable again.

The 20:10 from Glasgow arrives at Carlisle at 21:24 and connects into the 20:14 TPE departure from Edinburgh, which departs Carlisle at 21:35, a mere 11 minute wait, arriving into Manchester Piccadilly at 23:28.

No 141 minute at all. But sure why let reality get in the way of a rant?

 

[Bovverboy]

If the 2124/2135 connection at Carlisle were to prove too tight there are later connections for Manchester Piccadilly available at Preston and Warrington Bank Quay.

Going back to posts 90 and 93 it was made clear enough that the connection available at Carlisle was into the 2214 TP ex-Edinburgh from the 2113 SR ex Glasgow (via the GSW)

 

[route101]

If the 2124/2135 connection at Carlisle were to prove too tight there are later connections for Manchester Piccadilly available at Preston and Warrington Bank Quay.

Going back to posts 90 and 93 it was made clear enough that the connection available at Carlisle was into the 2214 TP ex-Edinburgh from the 2113 SR ex Glasgow (via the GSW)

Thats long journey to connect at Carlisle , wonder how many people do that?

 

[Bovverboy]

Thats long journey to connect at Carlisle , wonder how many people do that?

From Glasgow, just the few who miss the 2010!

 

[Kite159]

Glasgows last TPE to Manchester is at 1847 and Edinburghs is at 2215 .
Last Manchester to Glasgow TPE is at 2115 .
I do wonder how busy these late services are .

Is there any historic reason why the last Edinburgh - Manchester service is a good 3 and a half hours later than the last Glasgow - Manchester service? Just seems to be a large oddity [even if there is a connecting 350 departing Glasgow to Lockerbie/Carlisle which can run back to Glasgow as ECS to give any Glasgow customers a later connection]

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Is there any historic reason why the last Edinburgh - Manchester service is a good 3 and a half hours later than the last Glasgow - Manchester service? Just seems to be a large oddity [even if there is a connecting 350 departing Glasgow to Lockerbie/Carlisle which can run back to Glasgow as ECS to give any Glasgow customers a later connection]

Whatever the reason I doubt it could be called "historic". Back in the day when such services were loco-hauled portion working with splits/joins at Carstairs was the standard operating method. The last train south via Carlisle was approx 1815 from both Glasgow and Edinburgh. The gradual pushing back of that latest service is very much a product of privatisation/franchising such that the last service can generally be expected to be after 2000 at the very least. And with Scotrail improving services between the two cities via Motherwell and Carstairs connectional services are also possible. If Edinburgh is now consistently getting the latest through service to Manchester that must surely reflect greater demand.

 

[route101]

Whatever the reason I doubt it could be called "historic". Back in the day when such services were loco-hauled portion working with splits/joins at Carstairs was the standard operating method. The last train south via Carlisle was approx 1815 from both Glasgow and Edinburgh. The gradual pushing back of that latest service is very much a product of privatisation/franchising such that the last service can generally be expected to be after 2000 at the very least. And with Scotrail improving services between the two cities via Motherwell and Carstairs connectional services are also possible. If Edinburgh is now consistently getting the latest through service to Manchester that must surely reflect greater demand.

Allows for a longer day in Edinburgh for example . I can stay in Manchester till 9pm and get the train up to Glasgow though there is not any trains at Central to get me home ,