Train arrives too long for platform - fail

[dvboy]

This morning I was on the 0911 Wolverhampton - Birmingham International train (0514 Holyhead - BHI).. class 158

On arrival at Birmingham New Street, platform 2B, we overheard on the PA a conversation between the driver and conductor that went something along the lines of "I don't think we're going to get all 6 cars on the platform so be careful". We then had an announcement that there would be only one set of doors open in the fifth coach so anyone further forward would have to walk through the train.

I was in the front coach and on getting around half way through the train we suddenly, unannounced, started to move forward along the platform... I thought we might be leaving the station to go onto Bham International but we only got as far as 2A, at which point all of the doors were released. One of the cleaners on the train was at this point moaning that BHM was the worst station on the network, it was poorly designed etc. I said I know I use it every day.

A couple of questions about this incident...

What kind of SDO (if any) do class 158s have, and could more doors be opened, or all doors except those not in the platform?
What happens at stations with shorter platforms?
I think this train is normally a 4 car, if so why was a 6 car running in its place?
Why did BHM signallers put it into a platform that was too short, how can that happen?
What platform does it normally arrive on at BHM? I think it's P1 but that's closed at present.
Why didn't we have an announcement to say we were going to move down the platform once space became available, should there have been one? I think so.
One of my fellow passengers had a bike in the 2nd coach which he would not have been able to get off the train had we not moved along the platform, what would he have done besides a detour to BHI?

 

[Crossover]

Not sure on SDO but it sounds like they initially did local door with the butterfly - not for platform length reasons but I alighted a 158 at Haymarket a few weeks ago that was local door in this way (in that case for speed of getting two passengers and a guard off and getting it to depot)

 

[cf111]

As far as I'm aware, there is no SDO on 158s and the only option is to use the local door. This is how services at Conon Bridge and Beauly are worked with the rear door of the leading coach being the door being operated by the guard.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

standard procedure on units without SDO is local door only when having a too long train. We do it on the CLC Chesters when we have 2 150's.

 

[tsr]

Local-door-only operation is also carried out at a few staff halts around the country and in various places on the West Highland Line (for example, sometimes at Glenfinnan, IIRC), for reference.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What kind of SDO (if any) do class 158s have, and could more doors be opened, or all doors except those not in the platform?

AFAIK, unless it has been retrofitted, they don't have any SDO capability, just local door operation or the whole train. AIUI, local door operation can only be done at one door at a time. SDO is a post-Privatisation feature.

What happens at stations with shorter platforms?

Depends on the stock and the station, as well as TOC policy. Trains can stop at shorter platforms if they have previously done so before SDO rules came into force. TOC policy may restrict this further. This rule may disappear when 'Grandfather' rights run out.

I think this train is normally a 4 car, if so why was a 6 car running in its place?

Stock movement? Perhaps they expected heavy passenger flow at a later part of the day and wouldn't have another opportunity to move a unit? Maybe there is a coupling fault or faulty cab controls on one or two of units?

Why did BHM signallers put it into a platform that was too short, how can that happen?

AIUI, the signaller relies on the TOC telling NR how long the train will be, NR then has to make sure the signaller is aware. All the signaller can see on his track map is whether a section of track has a train on it or not. If the information available is "4 car" the signaller will work to that.

Why didn't we have an announcement to say we were going to move down the platform once space became available, should there have been one? I think so.

It might have been advisable, but if no doors were opened it might not have been considered necessary.

One of my fellow passengers had a bike in the 2nd coach which he would not have been able to get off the train had we not moved along the platform, what would he have done besides a detour to BHI?

They could have gone to the open door, spoken to the guard (who would have been there) and possibly arranged for another door to be opened, when everybody else was off, to get the bike off.

 

[phil beard]

During the summer, I went from Bath Spa to Avoncliff and had to get off the 150 unit by the staff access door behind the driver. Apparently, there was no individual door or coach control and two coaches could not be accommodated, so all the passenger doors were disabled while we got off from the front staff door.

 

[Scotrail84]

158 786/789 have SDO controls although we are not allowed to use them.

 

[BestWestern]

During the summer, I went from Bath Spa to Avoncliff and had to get off the 150 unit by the staff access door behind the driver. Apparently, there was no individual door or coach control and two coaches could not be accommodated, so all the passenger doors were disabled while we got off from the front staff door.

Yep, that would be standard procedure, if it's 150/1 then the crew 'slam' door will be used, 150/2 and it will be the same but the 'crew' door is powered and publicly accessible. All FGW 150 units have 'intermediate' door controls fitted to the innermost (furthest from cab) set of saloon doors.

The only 158s which have and use sdo are SWT 's units I believe. Savvy procedure in a situation where most but not all of the train is accomodated, would be to do an initial local door release and then open some/all of the other platformed doors using the external 'butterfly' emergency opening facility.

 

[Geezertronic]

Suppose if a 2 x 350 LM was in Platform 2a at the same time then there's no room for a 3 x 158 ATW to fit in behind it in 2b? Then when 2a became free the 3 x 158s moved forward?

 

[AmeralGunson]

Blasted Americanisms. The word is failure not fail.

 

[Aictos]

Altnabreac is another station where the local door is opened for any passengers wanting to get off or on there.

 

[dvboy]

Suppose if a 2 x 350 LM was in Platform 2a at the same time then there's no room for a 3 x 158 ATW to fit in behind it in 2b? Then when 2a became free the 3 x 158s moved forward?

Yes that's what I believe happened.

 

[455driver]

Not sure on SDO but it sounds like they initially did local door with the butterfly - not for platform length reasons but I alighted a 158 at Haymarket a few weeks ago that was local door in this way (in that case for speed of getting two passengers and a guard off and getting it to depot)

I hope not, tea and no biscuits if they did!
Do you speak from experience of actually working that way or is it what you think you saw somebody else do?

 

[Crossover]

I hope not, tea and no biscuits if they did!
Do you speak from experience of actually working that way or is it what you think you saw somebody else do?

I was on a 158/170 combination in Scotland earlier in the month - guard got the few passengers on the train to move into the 158 at Waverley - on arrival at Haymarket the back door of the 158 opened, the guard appeared out of the cab following us off, then outside he lent down to turn the butterfly to close the door - driver was looking back out of the cab window, the "signal" was given by platform staff and the driver took the set off to depot (can't remember if it was under a main aspect or shunt - think it was on a main aspect though). I was a bit bemused that the door opened without the guard, who I knew was in the 158. Maybe ScotRail do things differently and I'm not saying it is what happened in the case of the ATW

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I was on a 158/170 combination in Scotland earlier in the month - guard got the few passengers on the train to move into the 158 at Waverley - on arrival at Haymarket the back door of the 158 opened, the guard appeared out of the cab following us off, then outside he lent down to turn the butterfly to close the door - driver was looking back out of the cab window, the "signal" was given by platform staff and the driver took the set off to depot (can't remember if it was under a main aspect or shunt - think it was on a main aspect though). I was a bit bemused that the door opened without the guard, who I knew was in the 158. Maybe ScotRail do things differently and I'm not saying it is what happened in the case of the ATW

I know a few units have a 'butterfly' in the cab that the driver/guard can operate, I believe 158s are one such unit.

 

[455driver]

I was on a 158/170 combination in Scotland earlier in the month - guard got the few passengers on the train to move into the 158 at Waverley - on arrival at Haymarket the back door of the 158 opened, the guard appeared out of the cab following us off, then outside he lent down to turn the butterfly to close the door - driver was looking back out of the cab window, the "signal" was given by platform staff and the driver took the set off to depot (can't remember if it was under a main aspect or shunt - think it was on a main aspect though). I was a bit bemused that the door opened without the guard, who I knew was in the 158. Maybe ScotRail do things differently and I'm not saying it is what happened in the case of the ATW

Did the guard use the butterfly in the cab to open the doors or did he use the door control panel?
What he did when he left the train is a different matter (and normal procedure once the guard has keyed out from the panel).

 

[Crossover]

Did the guard use the butterfly in the cab to open the doors or did he use the door control panel?
What he did when he left the train is a different matter (and normal procedure once the guard has keyed out from the panel).

The door (local only) opened without the guard at the panel from what I could see/can recall

 

[Parallel]

During the summer, I went from Bath Spa to Avoncliff and had to get off the 150 unit by the staff access door behind the driver. Apparently, there was no individual door or coach control and two coaches could not be accommodated, so all the passenger doors were disabled while we got off from the front staff door.

Yup, it gets a bit more tricky sometimes when trains that stop at Avoncliff and Freshford have 4 coaches and there is no walk through between the two units - There was a chap who wanted to get off at Freshford but he was in the rear two coaches on a service last week and he couldn't get off, and then something snapped when we got to Avoncliff and he forced the doors open and jumped down onto the track... He should've just waited three minutes for Bradford On Avon, as that station gets all the trains Avoncliff does!

Usually with the awkward seating lay out if the train is a 150/1 (the 2+3 seats) the guard will open the local door using the furthest doors from the driver's cab in the front carriage. It all gets a bit confusing sometimes, particularly if there isn't any announcements!

 

[starrymarkb]

158 786/789 have SDO controls although we are not allowed to use them.

Ex-SWT units - 159s had SDO from new (as there are several stations on the WoE that can only hold 3 coaches) and SWTs 158s have had it retrofitted

 

[thelongestroad]

Usually with the awkward seating lay out if the train is a 150/1 (the 2+3 seats) the guard will open the local door using the furthest doors from the driver's cab in the front carriage. It all gets a bit confusing sometimes, particularly if there isn't any announcements!

Bit naughty! Should be the front crew slam door. Although the intermediate doors can be used on using the butterfly/emergency door release to get bikes etc off.

 

[PHILIPE]

The train the OP was travelling on is only booked for 4 Cars so perhaps the answer lies there.

 

[ACBest]

Something similar... When I visited Berney Arms, (yes, that place!) a 170 came in heading to Norwich - which itself surprised me, as I thought it was all Sprinters on that line - and the driver had to get out the cab, and use the emergency door release to open the front door only!

 

[TDK]

I hope not, tea and no biscuits if they did!
Do you speak from experience of actually working that way or is it what you think you saw somebody else do?

This is not poor practice if the guard knows there are only a couple of passengers on the service and they are waiting alight by the local door as the guards local door on a 158 is a passenger door down to design. It's not done for speed but it is a logical thing to do!

 

[455driver]

This is not poor practice if the guard knows there are only a couple of passengers on the service and they are waiting alight by the local door as the guards local door on a 158 is a passenger door down to design. It's not done for speed but it is a logical thing to do!

I think this is a case of different companies, different policies!

 

[noddingdonkey]

If the rear door is off the platform, can the guard release the doors and personally stay at that door to prevent anybody trying to use it? Or would he/she not be able to effectively despatch the train in those circumstances?

 

[edwin_m]

I happened to be walking along platform 4 today when the ATW service was pulling in behind the LM. The LM was right down the A end leaving a couple of coach lengths between it and the mid-platform signal, which was showing a subsidiary aspect. The ATW ran past the signal and stopped just short of the LM. Although the ATW was only a 4-car I think this would have allowed it to be platformed as a 6-car.

 

[jnty]

If the rear door is off the platform, can the guard release the doors and personally stay at that door to prevent anybody trying to use it? Or would he/she not be able to effectively despatch the train in those circumstances?

Something like this was common practice at Norwich before the 2013 collision and was mentioned critically in the report: http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2014/report092014.cfm

 

[The Planner]

I happened to be walking along platform 4 today when the ATW service was pulling in behind the LM. The LM was right down the A end leaving a couple of coach lengths between it and the mid-platform signal, which was showing a subsidiary aspect. The ATW ran past the signal and stopped just short of the LM. Although the ATW was only a 4-car I think this would have allowed it to be platformed as a 6-car.

Depends if the ATW was booked for 4 middle, if so then something could have come in on the back of it.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Something like this was common practice at Norwich before the 2013 collision and was mentioned critically in the report: http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2014/report092014.cfm

Assuming there is time between stations could the guard physically lock the rear door out of use, then once the train has departed "unlock" it so that it's once again the normal locking mechanism?